neongrey

Okay, middle grade is definitely not my bag, so I'm mostly going to stick to the broad strokes. Let's see what we can do here~ p.1 Yeah, your opening line is weak. In an internal chapter this would probably be fine, but if you're using a character's action in the first sentence of the book, you do need to use a name, otherwise it feels mushy. Also, there's something wonky about your pdf; the apostrophes appear to have been eaten. I see some other oddities too; I'll avoid commenting on punctuation unless I see something that is there that shouldn't be. ehhhh 'had formed in such a way that it appeared' is really bulky. You can use the active voice here. A lot of the phrasing on this page feels unnecessarily circuitous, and a little bit distant. p.2 It's better on this page; your phrasing flows more fluidly here but there's still some weirdness. 'cheeks lifted' is, I dunno, I'm not sold on that as a descriptor for a smile. p.3 No comma after 'before her'. p.4 I think 'unprotected' is a pretty weak word. Exposed might do better? p. 5 Your sentences definitely bulk up as you're expositing; the big middle paragraph and the one below that show it a lot. Around here the need to convey information is backseating everything else, and it's suffering some for it. 'It depicted', eg, is a very distant phrase for something so very personal. 'before her thoughts could protest' is not, I think, a phrase that really conveys its meaning very thoroughly. Like yeah, I get its role in the sentence but-- it's a weird way of getting to that destination and it's not very effective, I think. I'm also not sure in the slightest why she needs to take the necklace off. p. 6 Oh, I don't think this page works for me at all. 'glided forward as if by spell' is, I think, not grammatically correct but even adjusting for that I think it's a little weak. The following sentence is telly in a way that conveys no information at all; I think it'd be possible to remove it entirely without appreciably affecting the surrounds. Further on-- 'inventoried the surroundings' is such a dreadfully clinical phrase for a twelve-year-old girl's voice. Then you break POV on the 'even if she had known' bit; I think the sentence is repairable but as it is, it is, I think, not quite right. p.7 'became aware' is a little too passive a phrasing, I think. p.8 This one flows better. p.9 Argument? There's no one there. I'm still not sure why she's taking off the necklace. p. 10 n/a p.11 n/a Overall, I think your biggest thing technically is minding the passive voice-- it comes up most when you're needing to exposit. Some of the phrasing overall feels really out-of-voice for a character Sira's age. Thing is, though-- I'm not sure what this story is supposed to be about and we're four chapters in. It's not unpleasant to read but thus far, I'm not sure that it's strictly speaking a story as yet. I dunno-- I feel like the discovery at the end of 4 should be happening by the end of 2 at the absolute latest.

Previously: dead goddess, brother gone, etc, I'm not bothering to recap Lasila at all here since this is going to be a little moot soon. It's been a while since we've seen Savae though, so here's where we're at with them: Savae Alevrin, archmage, jeweler, and priest of the goddess of the moons arrived at the event honouring the rebirth of the goddess Maranthe on a bit of a mission: to obtain a token from one Senator Riruna; they hope that doing this will discharge debts tying them to the crime lord Varael Ashana. They are somehow involved with the death and rebirth of the goddess Alia and rise of her brother Kelriel; the mask worn by the priestess Maranthe and later Kelriel himself is certainly their own work. Inevitably, they find themself working against their own interests... So: if you could direct most of your focus onto the Savae sections; the Lasila stuff doesn't need more than a broad-strokes overview for reasons. That said, in both cases, sentence-level oddities are going to be unnecessary to point out; even stuff I can reuse mostly is going to require overhaul of the sentence structure for... more reasons. Per the notes left in the file, this isn't intended to be the first time we see Varael, and Savae's getting some rearrangement in general anyway so no need to worry too much about the text assuming familiarity between the two either.

Indeed, but my point is that this POV drained away most anything I found interesting about her, so. In judged international sporting events (gymnastics, eg), the judges from Russia are somewhat notoriously... difficult to please. Which, well-- that's not to say I hate everything, but neither am I interested in exchanging validation. Ah ha ha ha in this it's not so much about likability, per se. Certainly it's a type of character that a lot of people enjoy and it's certainly a type of voice that's proven successful. And it does come down to the voice, above all else, that puts me off. Which too is a little more pervasive a problem than just action... oh well. Possibly, but since it's a voice issue if we're mostly in his head, that'll be trouble for me. See how it goes.

Yeah, looking it up further you do seem to be correct, which is interesting because I've always seen it as smoothe. Regonalism maybe? idk. Yeah, she's definitely not impatient-- part of why I think that'll play better with her aged up too. 16/17 is a little young to be really going for the sort of long-game planning she really does.

We're actually going to see this much sooner now, heh. In fact by absolutely no definition of the term, even stretched, is this at all a period piece. That said, if it's out of tone with the surrounds, it's out of tone. Total detachment here was certainly the intent (the age thing), though it won't be when we come back to it. No, smoothe is the verb, smooth is the adjective. I don't have a problem with lbls at all; ABCD format applied to anything more narrow than a broad-strokes overview is what doesn't give me anything personally useful for a lengthy host of reasons, lol. One simply must take these things in the spirit in which they were intended... Ultimately though, if she's being read as passive when it's modestly important that she not be, that's an issue. We'll see how this goes once it's been through the meat grinder. Thanks!

Also, I think I'm moving to present tense. I've got a soft preference for it and I'm very comfortable with the form, but I did the first draft in past not so much because I wanted to or because I thought it was the right move but because past was a more conservative choice and I was wanting to hedge bets that way. But I think a lot of this will play better in present so.

Okay, outline repaired, and yeah, I think I'm going to have to start over, because some of this is going to have some massive implication differences. I'll probably finish off this section of 13 that I'm dealing with because I want to still use this subplot and move it up earlier for Savae, and I can transplant this bit nearly wholesale. So, I have 11 and 12 complete, and large swathes of them are still good probably, so I'll still send 11 out at the very least; the Savae material within the both of them is still worth going over. Say hello to Lasila, contract lawyer.

Yeah, I mean this is rework that'll need to be done no matter what, so it's gonna happen sooner or later; I think I'll probably need to do the outline adjustments first, and see how far off where I need to be I am right now. If it's too far off, pressing forward isn't going to help much at all.

So I've been thinking over the nature of the story I want to be telling and what's important to that,and I'm fast coming to the conclusion that bumping Lasila from 17 to 22 initially will do a lot of what I'm needing done here. So, I'm just wanting to think aloud so I have something to look at, and I figure I might as well do it here in case anyone who's been reading along has any thoughts to offer, and it's something I can directly my other readers to so I can get their thoughts. Savae's plotline basically remains unchanged by doing this, but key players in Lasila's storyline would have either their ages or interactions with Lasila needing modification (or both). A table, in order of appearance: CHARACTER OLD AGE NEW AGE NOTES ========= ======= ======= ===== Lasila Vahendra 17 22 This would place her as a legal adult, and rather than needing to restart the business from nothing, she'd already have done the basics, and would presently be struggling with making it work. Below for more details. Varinen Vahendra 29 29 This makes him seven years older than Lasila instead of twelve. Thus, he's twenty-two when he takes legal guardianship of Lasila rather than twenty-seven. This is probably a net benefit to the particular strained relationship they need to have going on if he's that much younger and less prepared to basically dad a headstrong teenager with pretty much nothing in common with him. Maranthe 34-39 34-39 Maranthe's age is more or less irrelevant so long as she's in her mid-late 30s. Maranthe/Lasila still not canon, but less potential to be creepy. Eshrin Linphori 27 ?? This needs some specific consultation with people familiar with the full outline. He needs to be older than Lasila, but I don't know that he needs to be a full ten years older. There is probably less creepitude if Lasila is legal when they meet, but he probably also comes off as more of a jerk if she's got some experience under her belt. This may not be a bad thing. Aging him up means aging up Melqueth, and Melqueth is currently at his absolute maximum age that I'm willing to settle for, so. Needs consultation. Rienri Linphori 30ish 30ish His age doesn't matter all that much, to be honest. If Eshrin or Iluya had POV, it might, but Rienri matters very little to Lasila. Iluya Judessa 25 25 She probably comes off a little less predatory if Lasila's not literally a minor. This is probably a good thing. I mean, she's predatory, but not in the creepo way. Possibly she can come in earlier. Adrichel Melqueth 26 26 I prefer him at 24, since being somewhat of a prodigy is his deal, but his dynamic with Eshrin trumps almost everything else, and Eshrin by nature would go straight to resentment if Adrichel is too much younger. Irahi Ralista 16 21 Well, it's neither of their first times anymore. Probably he starts contract negotiations sooner, so there's the potential for romantic tension way earlier. Note: not a love triangle. Four other characters appearing in 12/13: Probably a lot more generalized shuffling. Not major characters, not a huge deal. So, advantages of doing this: The process of Lasila getting business off the ground isn't so much as important as her actually doing business. Far less of Lasila preparing to do things that will take ages to actually get done. Less time that's going to need a fast-forward approach later on. As above, I suspect a lot of the character interaction is going to be a lot more interesting. Disadvantages: This would definitely impact the civil service exam/vote plot, which is about to (from what I've subbed thus far) step forward more Which would then impact the sort of insider trading Lasila gets up to later on Would also definitely impact a subplot I'm in the middle of writing too, with securing some account books Would definitely have an effect on the Senatorial election plotline She'd likely exposit less about social stuff The big key here is that quite a lot of what's needed is that she needs to become employed by the Senate during the process of the story, and she has less reason for doing so if she's already gainfully (even if struggling) employed. If she were strictly a stock trader at this point and struggling with making enough to expand, that might do, but I don't feel like I've got the knowledge to do that right, so I'm leery of that particular route. The details of what exactly she's doing and how she's doing it would probably need a more detailed going-over in relation to the overall outline. So, this is gonna have a big impact on the stuff that's already been done. Chapters that can probably get away with only minor changes: 2 4 11-13 Chapters that can more or less retain the same skeleton, but would still need extensive rework: 6-10 Chapters that would need to be gutted: 1 3 5 And of course numbers might change around as pacing would be adjusted, but that's a given. So, all but one of the disadvantages of doing this is something that I can outline around, and I think the payoff would be worthwhile. However, as it stands I'm presently 57,230 words into a target of 120,000. There's basically two roads I can go here: Turn around, go home, and start from 1 again. Pros of doing this: Saves the trouble of needing to rework this stuff as extensively later. The nature of writing is of course such that I'm better now than when I started; the work will be better no matter what. Cons of doing this: man it's nearly halfway to target, I don't wanna throw all that out seriously, that would suck 2. Adjust the outline, treat the adjustments as already having been made for the purposes of moving forward, keep going from where I am (middle of 13) as if these changes have always been in place, and smoothe out the seams in second draft. Pros of doing this: Not tossing all those words. I'm confident I can make detail-level modifications on the fly going forward Cons of doing this: The rework stage, of course, is going to be killer. Explaining continuity modifications when I sub, lol Possibly this route is more actual work but it's work I don't have to do right now, so it's future neon's problem Anyone have any thoughts at all here?

Okay, per before, due to the nature of the submission I'm going to hold off on most prose commentary and sentence-level structural comments, and stick to the broad strokes. P.1 n/a P.2 I'm not loving Grimes thus far, if only because the prose feels sort of awkward all around. Laying it on way too thick; he'd feel more sympathetic with more elegant phrasing overall. This feels a little sloppy, in a way that I'm not sure is to the benefit of this as a POV exercise. Right now, the character exposition is interfering with the POV, I think. p.3 As above. I'm not feeling Moth at all so far, which feels like a shame to me, because she was really the most interesting thing about the last piece. p.4 It's feeling more awkward now; Grimes' voice is feeling a bit all over the place. Feels like you're wobbling between characters for him here. Around here, Moth has lost me as a point of interest. Sudden screaming amidst the supposed humble demeanor feels incongruous, and not in a 'this reveals something about the character' sort of way, more in the line editing error sort of way. p.5a n/a p.5b (whole section, incl. the bit on p.6) Quirk's voice remains singularly unpleasant to me; I don't enjoy him in the slightest. As before, there's something that feels really off to me in the way the text is handling his approach to his trappings, but it's hard to pinpoint the source if only because a number of these sentences are just sort of falling apart, there's some really weird grammar going on here. Which is not something that I'd lose sleep over given the nature of the piece, but it makes me hard to ground myself to evaluate. p.6 Oooh, nope nope nope nope. I think I hate this character. The beeline from objectifying->assessing disinterest->approach anyway->'witty banter' is really a hard turn-off to me, and it's that last bit that's the clincher. This is bar none one of my least favourite character types of all time (ask me about virulently hating every single thing whedon has ever done in his entire career); the dialogue (and it is an extremely dialogue-driven character type) never, ever rings true to me, in a way that grates hard for me. A full length piece where he's the primary POV is not something I'd be able to assess fairly. YMMV on whether that's a good thing, of course, given my propensity for going all Russian judge in crits. p.6a As above. I do not buy this exchange; his lines are coming off profoundly unattractive. P.6b (Moth 1) No comment; a bit disappointed that this is such in point form. I liked Moth's bit in the last one. P.6c (Moth 2) As above.

Me too please.

Definitely not heterosexual.

All right, let's take a look here. Really sorry I let you slip last week, I just got tied up with a bunch of other things. IIRC I liked the previous version of this one better than most. Let's see here~ page 1 I've missed enough of this story that this could very well be just me not having missed it-- but are there televised trials (fictional or otherwise) anymore in this setting? I'm probably a bit tangled; I don't have a great image of the infrastructure outside this city. That, I'm not going to call your fault, but it sticks out. p.2 Still got a wonky sentence here: "Only the for the second clam to lie dead' Starting off a sentence with 'only' pretty much always feels a bit weird, and then there's some sorta typo or something going on there, I'm not 100% what you're getting at. Should also be 'sacs' for the spider, yeah? 'stare at it in recognition' feels a bit off too, I feel like there's probably a better way to frame that. There's something weird too, I think, about the way this mural is described-- it is a static picture, yeah? Something about the way time is being used in the description here is leading me to read it as a moving image. 'forks' into his hair? Not sure I get the vernacular here, though I can loosely extrapolate the meaning. The description of him is a bit odd tensewise, though. 'clutches a small tablet' is simple present and 'forks into his short afro' is present continuous; the result is a weird tangle of describing his state of being (clutching the tablet) and what he's doing (going for the hair). Probably best to break it up a little. p.3 'has wired' I think that 'has' is sort of throwing off the casual tone of the voice here. he's or he'd wired might work better? 'Brick-- I mean the AI--' feels a little bit as-you-already-know here? Is there a reason the hacker wouldn't assume someone he's talking to would associate Brick with the AI? p.4 You start using the name before he introduces himself. 'have not stopped buzzing' again, contracting would fit the voice better, I think; I don't think there's any appreciable emphasis added by separating them here (there is in the subsequent dialogue) 'Patient chair' seems like a weird word for it, idk. p.5 Again, 'have cut', though the clause that ends the sentence would also benefit from a verb too, I think. p.6 'The wind knocked out of me etc' this sentence goes on way too long, I think, and in too many directions. Probably better breaking it up a little, I think? second raise should be past tense. 'Gapes at me with wide eyes' feels a bit redundant. I think here's a case where you could cut narration, though too, I think you'd want to contract; decontracting "where's" to "where is" is a little deliberate for the sort of shock you want here. Otherwise, yeah, I was a little iffy at the prospect of revision on this beforehand, but this flows a lot more smoothly even than before. Much more in the way of actual character work than before. Much better than previous.

This'll be quite the pickle to deal with when I get back to it, then (though I appreciate a measure of irony in her not being seen as protaging until she's being directly acted upon by others). We'll see how it goes going forward, so we can see just how deeply-set some of this is. We're getting soon into stuff that I've had early feedback for before writing, so from there too we'll see how it looks.

Hmmmm. In fact, the early stuff is pretty thick with plot. Right now there's a lot of balls in the air. Some of it I want to go under the radar, but not all of it. Is it simply because of the framing that it's getting written off as non-pertinent? FWIW, it's very much not a sex scene (among other things, both participants are presently of an age where, while I'm fine with presenting this as having occurred, I'm less okay with actually going through such a scene as yet; the exact conversions [or any conversions, really] aren't particularly pertinent to the story, but shaving a year off an aelin age will uuusually put that into 'human years', so given this is an equivalent of sixteen-year-olds, actually portraying this is a bit dicey), so if it's being interpreted as such, I actually need to go the other direction. Savae deals with this more for obvious reasons (and there will have been more done with this in the stuff to be added) but red moonlight is absolutely a thing here. Otherwise, as always, filing as notes for when I get to revision. Thanks!

The problem I have in that case becomes less one of principles and more about writing in general. If the only reason for one character's pain is to make us feel bad for another character, or to provide motivation for that character, that's a lazy move. It's less inherently objectionable when it doesn't involve members of marginalized groups but I don't think it makes for good writing. Note that I'm not objecting to killing characters for emotional or plot impact (ned star is a very well-known example of this being done effectively) but it's one of those things where I think you really need to look at what role it's filling in a story. I an actually in kind of an awkward place looking at my own outline because-- as we all should be well aware-- there's been a lot of attention called to killing off LGBT characters in media lately (do check out what happened with a show called The 100 if you're not familiar because that case was particularly egregious, but there's huge lists of characters killed off this year alone) and I do have characters who are going to die and I have exactly one character who would self-identify as heterosexual, and he's definitely not. Burn that bridge when I get to it, I guess.

It is not the nicest possible framing of the sentiment but in particular I feel that going too soft on things like this leads to people dismissing the magnitude of impact this has on women and female adjacent people. (and indeed it appears this was previously dismissed in a prior revision). This sort of plot device is an active contributor to marginalization of women in genre. It cannot be treated lightly. Again: I stand by what I said as critique of the work given in good faith.

Everything I said was critique given in good faith of the work, and I stand by it as such. This is demonstrably and verifiably the sort of plot device that causes readers to form an unpleasant view of the person who wrote it, in large part because it can only exist as a conscious choice made in the writing process. It is not the sort of plot device that can be painted as serving some higher need (especially when presented in a manner as this story): it exists because of and furthers misognyny in writing. I've bowed out before when I didn't think I'd be able to crit work in good faith. That's not what happened here; this entire piece is structured to funnel the reader into a bit where the majority of the named women in it are killed solely to make the protagonist appear more sympathetic. Any connection at all to media trends within the past fifteen, twenty years should make it very clear that this is not acceptable in the slightest. The thought process that leads up to deciding to use this mechanism must be examined, because the underlying misogyny cannot continue. The casual acceptance of this type of plot device is a large contributor to driving women away both from the genre and spaces surrounding it. If one feels badly at the prospect of considering how deeply this sentiment runs in oneself: should it really feel good? I stand by what I said: it was in no respect a "flame", and I think if Krystalynn has a problem with me, she should say so to me directly, rather than talk around me. If she wants to go back to pretending I don't exist that's fine, but this isn't the first time she's broken that to wave off what I had to say. I'd rather she not try and have it both ways.

There's just something inherently off-the-binary about two-syllable names starting with 'sava', I guess, lol. Don't tell me the emphasis on yours is on the second syllable too, lololol.

Ohhh okay, yeah, I see now. I think unless someone else has an issue with that bit it's probably good, then, hehe.

Now I am super extra confused because I have no idea what you're referring to here, and I'm not seeing small in any way referring to a person here, hahaha.

Ooh, hmm. It does, but in ways I'm not necessarily sure how to approach, because some of what you're reading off this is the literal opposite of the intention; to wit, she's supposed to have a clear goal (restoration of the family as a business entity, social advancement), a defined plan for doing it (complete schooling, pay off the family debts and reinvest the remaining money, work a decent job for contacts and stability until she can get things up and running), and clear pitfalls for messing up (getting stuck in a bank's basement somewhere, poking at dead accounts, going nowhere socially), and clear impediments to doing this (she is not an adult, legally or socially and is being forced to act in these arenas, she doesn't have presently have the resources to fulfil her goals, and she's on a perceived deadline). She is pursuing something she's passionate about, and she's taking direct action toward it (going over the finances, going over schooling options, getting together contacts). The finance is critical to her, but unfortunately I can't so easily just have her take in the smell of the bank and be overwhelmed by all the money in the building. So there's clearly some level of disconnect in terms of how what I'm intending is coming off, which, hmm. Certainly she reads more active to me than Savae, who by this point in the story has been entirely moving at the behest of other people; their own goals are entirely off the page thus far (this will change, and shortly, but their story is framed somewhat differently). So, hmmm. I'm not terribly concerned with her being likeable, per se (certainly few of her antecedents are); but if she's not interesting, then I've got more of an issue. Especially as we go into the next bit, and she sees just what a terrible thing she's agreed to, and she is not bothered at all. My goal is that you don't have to like her at all, but I need you to want to see what she's going to do next. Otherwise there's no point to any of this, of course. Sigh. I need to figure out how to go about this, because clearly something's not coming out right. I almost wonder if I've started her too early; if I bumped her up a few years and she already had some business off the ground, we could cut sooner to the literal financial wizardry... but, ugh, I'd have so much I'd need to rework... I think I need a complete draft, or at the very least I don't want to go back to the start right now. It was basically a magic zipper, haha. Gosh that sort of thought alone is enough to keep me going on this, haha. I'm not saying I'd totally be one of those authors who writes their own dirty fanfic, b u t..................... It's a mixed/indeterminate group, and regrettably the neutral of priest is also priest. Possibly not clear enough. Now I too am confused; what kid? Possibly not clear enough here, then; he is no such thing. But a god may appear as he pleases, and the Lord of Masks never wears only one. Hmm, might need a bit of work, but yeah, I do want a bit of a soft drop before going into eleven, which is... very busy in its own, very different way.

Previously: The living goddess of the city of Ilidria is dead, and the war that has been draining the city continues inexorably. Lasila Vahendra is the youngest daughter of a once-successful merchant house that hasn't traded since she was a child; though she would see this restored, she is still too young, and lacks both the knowledge and resources to do so. Her only remaining family, her brother Varinen, has no head for business at all, and has his own means of attempting to restore the family: he accepts a bodyguard position for a senator going to peace talks, in the hopes of ending the war. Left to fend for herself, Lasila steps up her plans to restore the business, laying groundwork to complete her schooling. She finds herself invited to attend the celebration of the goddess' rebirth; before he goes, her brother secures an escort for her. Hoping to forge potential contacts for later business, Lasila attends: and learns that she carries the capacity to learn the very magic that has been destroying her people. It is not only pain and disease; this power can be used in ways that would revolutionize transport of goods. She consents to learn, despite it being illegal to do so, and despite a loose suspicion that any other response would have been hazardous to her health. Emboldened, she makes acquaintance with a young man of about her own age, and takes him aside. Savae doesn't return until next time, so I'll put a pin in their recap. This time: Not only a goddess is reborn. So: with this, we're closing out the first major section of the story (and my buffer is running short, lol, I need to do better things with my time) . So, at this point, I've got a question and it's just for some of you. A few of you are saying you're not very interested in Lasila's storyline. I'd like you to be more specific, please. As specific as you possibly can; pull it apart and look at the pieces and tell me why it's not working for you. I'm particularly interested in knowing what exact markers you're reading as 'active' or 'not active', if that's an issue for you, and why you're reading them that way.

Me too, please.

When the question is 'is all magic illegal or just this form of it' and the immediately previous chapter was a fairly extensive discussion of legal forms, I am going to call that fairly textbook WRS. Otherwise, I feel no particular inclination to go all RPG rulebook with the stuff. No one remotely close to her in age. As opposed to the last time. Thanks; gonna have to think about some structural stuff when I get to this.