xbauks

Actually it's probably Surgebinders that Brandon was talking about. We know from the Nohadon vision that the general populace at the time put a lot of stock in Surgebinders. They thought Surgebinding gave them the right to rule.

Then again it was a Divine right in Nohadon's words so I could be wrong.

The Stormfather's use of the term "sliver" is very curious and given how careful Sanderson has been about such terms in the past, I would be hesitant to ignore the significance so easily. If the Stormfather is a Sliver, then he can not be a splinter (aka, spren), and vice versa. However, he also binds with Dalinar to make the latter a Knight's Radiant, which is a rather sprenish thing to do. Yet if the Stormfather is the Bondsmith spren (and it is implied that, yes indeed, all bondsmiths had been tied to him), and the Bondsmiths lived prior to Honor's demise, then how could the Stormfather be a splinter of Tanavast created when Odium killed him? And what of the other super-spren that we're introduced to (Nightwatcher, the one responsible for the Thrill, and the one responsible for Death Rattles)?

We have a lot of conflicting terms concepts here, so I doubt we're meant to find a simple answer.

Something to clarify: splinters can be created voluntarily by shards. They do not need to be splintered in order for splinters to form.

That said, it is possible for the Stormfather to be a splinter and a sliver. He mentioned that he was present when the Almighty was killed. He may have taken up the Shard dropped by Tanavast and then fearing for his life, dropped it. Odium splinters Honour. Stormfather is a sliver and a spren. Everything checks out. This is of course assuming that spren can actually take up a shard.

Here's a WoB that might interest you:

Source:

The WoB heavily implies modern Skybreakers can Surgebind. Taravangian thought Helaran had taught Shallan, though Helaran had a gem on his Blade, so that's weird.

There are arguments both for and against modern Skybreakers being the same Order as the Knights Radiant. I lean towards them being the same Order, but possibly whenever they bind a spren, they purposefully kill it so they won't bring a Desolation or something. Or perhaps they can Surgebind and Helaran did not for unknowable reasons.

Does the patron of an order count as a member? If so could Brandon just be screwing with us? Nalan would just need his honourblade to be a member. And he was the one that approached Szeth. The rest of his lackeys could be random soldiers and the could would still technically be true.

Assuming Nalan is Nalan. And he is considered a member since he is the patron.

Please reference my original post here:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6673-szeth-theory-with-wor-spoilers/

I state I do not believe it's Nalan that gives Seth Nightblood. In my re-read, I caught something in Dalinar's vision in the beginning of the book. The Almighty said

"Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. That is the best advise I can give you".".

He also gives calls Nightblood a ShardBlade, when he obviously knows it's not,to deceive Szeth.

I think that scene where "Nalan" gives Nightblood to Szeth is Odium choosing his champion.

Thoughts?

So as I understand it, your theory hinges on the Dalinar vision pretty heavily. So let's first talk about whether you have interpreted that quote properly. The Almighty doesn't say that Odium will choose a champion right away. He says (paraphrased)

"build a fortress to withstand the storm. Vex Odium. Make him think that he might lose again. Then choose a champion. Odium will choose a champion rather than risk defeat again."

So it makes no sense for Darkness to be an agent of Odium who has chosen Szeth to be his champion. Conclusion: Szeth is not Odium's champion.

Is Szeth given Nightblood by an agent of Odium in the hopes that Szeth will create a lot of chaos? It's possible. But Szeth doesn't feel the lust nor the revulsion that people most commonly experience wrt Nightblood. Does that mean Szeth is neutral (neither good nor evil)? I goes we'll RAFO.

Regarding Renarin: I'm not sure where the idea of Glys being responsible for the "blood weakness" comes from. He has been known to have seizures from a very young age. Before his 6th birthday. So something was wrong since before he turned 6. Renarin doesn't start acting weird until WoR. Glys may have been around watching, but we don't start seeing any interference until Renarin starts to write the stuff on the wall. Also, his vision isn't healed until sometime early WoR. That would indicate that Renarin hadn't used Stormlight until then. Glys being involved in "blood weakness" seems very unlikely. It legitimately was a condition he had. Stormlight healed him.

Fair enough. Though, it does still seem to me that people who feel the desire to fight being compelled to Alethela is something of the Radiants. The Heralds aren't around at the time and it doesn't seem to be present in the time of the books. Maybe it's not related to the Thrill, but I still think it might be related to a Bondsmith.

That conversation actually makes it sound like a person should be compelled out of good sense to come to Urithiru rather than literally. The female Radiant mentions that fighting changes a person. Anyone willing to fight should go to Urithiru so that the changes a war/desolation brings about in a person doesn't destroy them. I'm thinking the Thrill is what causes the changes.

forgot about roshone/amaram and wasnt certain about the other highprinces.

Not sure its done to follow fantasy naming conventions though. seems awfully disrespectful of dalinar and the king.

Or shows familiarity. For some, calling Dalinar by his first name would be disrespectful (e.g. some random light eyes) whereas for others, it might just be because they know each other well enough.

I don't like the "person swap" theory. The madman in the warcamps is inhumanly fast and knows things no normal person should know.

Some form of "multiple personality Taln" is my go-to theory for now. Maybe he is just insane. Maybe he had another personality shoved down his throat. Maybe he broke from torture and threw half of his mind into another personality (the one we see in the warcamps). Maybe Hoid did something to him, for one reason or another.

Maybe it's another herald overcome with guilt. And to assuage his conscience, he's convinced himself he is Taln. The one who stayed true to his oaths.

Wherever they come from, they may need Stormlight to make the transformation. We see spren hanging around them and we also see spren leaving when they die. They don't seem to be sentient but there are obviously spren that don't require the same level of physical/cognitive mix that humans have for bonding.

Pretty much what Kurkistan said. The Szeth interludes don't imply the Stone having any special power over him. The only thing he mentions is that if he doesn't follow orders his soul will disappear upon death rather than being tormented for all eternity for his sins. That threat of non existence is what keeps Szeth doing what he does.

I didn't mean to imply that nalan would want/intend for szeth to become a surgebinder. I just think that he is very aware of the qualities that skybreakers generally possess. I think that szeth is going to get the attention of some spren quite soon.

I'm hoping the first third of stones unhallowed will be more or less Szeth moving towards not being crazy, the second third having him forming a bond with his spren, and the last part having him join up with the Radiant crew and kicking some serious chull.

About Nightblood:

We know that the sword consumes investiture when unsheathed. This is in 2 ways: 1. It consumes some amount of breath per second from the wielder and 2. It consumes the investiture present in each person it hits (the stuff of life). So we can guess that if Szeth runs out of Stormlight, it would probably kill Szeth by consuming the investiture present in his life.

About Nalan:

He's been hunting surgebinders to stop the desolations. I doubt he's going to make Szeth one. Either Szeth has to carry infused spheres or Nightblood will give him the ability to infuse. Or some other option we don't know about.

@moogle

I think we're interpreting journey before destination differently. The way I see it: pick destination->pick right* journey->follow said journey even though you may fail. The important bit being picking the right* journey and following it. It does not mean you do things regardless of consequence.

Regarding Teft: "There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one."

Keeping in mind the above, let's look at Dalinar. He let's both and and Amaram get away with murder. He doesn't punish Elhokar for the Roshone incident and tries to hush it up. The Roshone incident happened years ago. When Gavilar was still alive. This was before the visions and before he started reading WoK. Do I think what he did was wrong? Yes. Do I think he has changed? Most definitely.

He let Amaram get away with it. Someone already put a quote saying Dalinar couldn't have held a Shardbearer hostage. So that's not relevant anymore.

He let Sadeas get away. First, we need to establish what is journey and what is destination in this scenario. Being Sadeas to justice is the destination. How Dalinar goes about doing that is the journey. So let's look at the paths available to Dalinar right after the betrayal: the court (or the Alethi equivalent) or war. Taking Sadeas to court right after the betrayal would have done nothing. Sadeas's actions were perfectly acceptable by Alethi standards. Inciting civil war by attacking Sadeas may have gotten Dalinar his justice but at the cost of the death of a few thousand men. So the destination has no right* journey. So discard that destination until a right* journey becomes available. And that's exactly what Dalinar did.

*whatever right means.

The scene where Nin revives Szeth and gives him Nightblood are nagging at me. It doesn't feel right.

Nin brought Szeth back from death. He used a fabrial or some other device which he quickly hid behind his back, not inborn abilities.

Choosing Szeth for a destructive sword with questionable moral direction when he's bent on vengeance against the Shin people seems like a move to cause more chaos and destruction. Why would the Herald of Justice help someone seeking vengeance?

I think it's an awesome to have the combination but I get the feeling that this person means for Bad things to come, not good things.

A friend said she thinks that this is Odium, but as we know Odium is on Braize, I don't think he's ready to come back to Roshar quite yet.

He could be a member of one of the societies trying to cause chaos across Roshar or an agent of Odium or something.

Did anyone else get bad vibes from this scene?

Sorry if this has been brought up elsewhere, didn't see it at a quick skim.

Most heralds we see are messed up I'm some way or another. Thus, Nin giving Szeth the sword to get "justice" doesn't seem too far off the mark.

General consensus is that Hoid took it. Why? That's the big question.

 

General cosmere spoilers ahead.

 

We'll just have to RAFO.

Totally agree man love the theory!

Hoid definitely has his own grander agenda involving the greater Cosmere;

- Hoid to Dalinar

I think he is preparing for something big that involves the whole Cosmere as he's seen in all the worlds so far...

I think it's revenge he's after....it's one hell of a motivator

 

Not sure what his motivation is but I'm thinking he's trying to create a mini Adonalsium. He's slowly gathering powers from each and every Shard we know of.

I hadn't really thought about the fact the Nalan wasn't actually leading some KR. I assumed that the "one order that didn't abandon mankind" was the Skybreakers but the more I think about it the more I think it was probably Taln's order. Oops...

 

Can't be the Stonewards either. They broke their Bond with the Windrunners at Feverstone Keep.

It's very likely that the entire human race on Roshar is non-native. So the Heralds being non-native doesn't seem all that big a deal. 

It's a bit vague, but I think he does manifest powers, rather than just holding Stormlight.

I don't think the spren bond affects what happens with Honorblades, so theoretically, it should be possible to bond an Honorblade and a Shardblade.

Makes what Kaladin has sound pretty interesting, doesn't it?

It would be pretty pointless to be honest. WoB: very little compounding of the surges occurs so having an honourblade and shardblade would only be useful for the dual wielding.

Also the moving faster is something Stormlight does for everyone. As Teft puts it in WoK, it enhances the user.

My theory is that to become a Skybreaker, you must first die and then be revived (like what happened to Szeth). This could also mean that Helaran would be alive and might have even gotten himself killed on purpose in the hopes he would become one.

It could also explain this in some small part :

Please leave me your thoughts!

The epigraph is regarding real Skybreakers(Radiants). Nalan's group is not the Skybreakers(only in name).

Nergaoul and Moelach?

Nice catch! I was wondering what those could be. I was just going to assume storm form parshendi but the description wouldn't match.

About corruption: maybe it requires the seed of certain emotions (bloodlust? Rage?). We've seen that after feeling disgusted by the thrill Dalinar stops feeling it in battle.

I would actually say that Nalan is not sane and is quite twisted. However, he does manifest surgebinding, or at least the ability to suck in stormlight:

So if he doesn't have his honorblade, heralds have a natural ability to Invest themselves. I don't really have an opinion on this theory, just throwing this fact out.

He hasn't used any surges so far so it could just be innate ability to use Stormlight. Or it could be deliberate. What if he refuses to use any surges? Part of the whole "surgebinders cause the desolation" craziness.

I thought they were talking about the Skybreakers ability to find criminals and follow the law. The epigraph before this one talks about the Skybreakers splitting up a group into criminals and innocents.

is the glowing figure walking the storm when Kaladin and Shallan are hiding during the highstorm a Parshendi changing to Stormform?

I think so. Kaladin thinks it's something alien, so it may not be parshendi. It could be something else. But a little later he mentions seeing void spren.

And yet, the vast majority of dead people in the Cosmere (who didn't die of old age or natural disasters - something I consider preventable by the Shards incidentally and blame them for not fixing) are dead as a result of Shardic meddling. Ruin's monsters, his natural disasters, Preservation's tsunamis and Snappings, Endowment's Manywar, Odium's Voidbringers, Honor's deal to subject his world to constant Desolations - at some point, one has to wonder why Odium being trapped is a good thing.

He slaughters some of his people so the greater majority will not die. 9/10 people died in a previous Desolation, and without the Heralds or (large amounts of which we don't have because of Nalan) Radiants the death toll is likely to be higher without drastic measures.

He's also uniting the world, which means he needs to temporarily throw it into chaos. We don't know if he'll unite it, but it's what he intends. What he's doing will be good for Roshar if he succeeds. I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise? The question is more whether people think it's worth the cost and whether his chances are that good. I find it difficult to believe people don't think it's worth it, but that goes into personal feelings and opinions rather than anything people can persuade each other with.

Honor's Splintered, and I don't really know why people give Shards any moral authority anyways. They're pretty much incredibly bad for civilization. The only exception so far has been Harmony I believe, and the only reason he hasn't been mucking things up I'm half-convinced is because he "finds it hard to act" as per WoB. I guess you could also make an exception for Endowment, but Endowment's mucking about with Returned resulted in the Manywar and so many other things, so I find this questionable.

Splinter them all, I say.

It's interesting that you bring up Harmony. I'm not sure if it's been brought up but the only reason the shards are generally bad for the worlds is because they have nothing to balance them. The exception being Harmony who is almost perfectly balanced. Sure splintering them would help, but according to Brandon killing the bearer of a shard just allows the shard to gain sentience and can cause funky things to happen. I say put Adonalsium back together. Or if not Adonalsium then at least pair up the opposing shards.

"Lead them, Adolin. Unite them."

Those are the words Dalinar says to Adolin before he went off to fight Szeth.