xbauks

Or maybe having ten heralds split the torture 10 ways, and the heralds had a procedure for when to accept that a desolation was inevitable, and to stop fighting it and re-appear?  say, anytime 3 heralds have broken, the desolation is inevitable?

Completely possible. It could even be that the last one to give in would decide when the Desolation would happen. 

Going back to the Chapter 83 Epigraph, the way it is phrased makes it sound like going over 4 millenia without a Desolation is unusual. 

For some reason I think the secret of the Recreance is attached to the epigraph of chapter 83. To quote:

 

 

I can't explain why I think these two are tied together, but whatever this Ancient of Stone is, he's been apparently holding together the world at least since the Heralds broke their Oaths. Is he Taln? If so, could the Recreance have been a massive realization by the Radiants that the Heralds broke the very first Oath themselves? They put destination before the journey, and the whole world could suffer for it.

 

Tangent: anyone else think it odd that Jezerin is acknowledged as the leader of the Heralds, but Dalinar is a Bondsmith and is going to lead the Radiants? What, I wonder, did the Herald who inspired the Bondsmiths teach pre-Desolation?

I'm inclined to believe that the Ancient of Stones is Taln. He is called Talanel'Elin Stonesinew. He was being tortured for over 4 millenia. 

Speculation: IF Taln is the Ancient of Stones, and the Desolations were held back by his will alone, did that mean that the weakest of the Heralds decided when the next Desolation would come?

I guess the two different answers I have gotten exemplify my confusion. 

 

if Nohadon lived long before the last Desolation, as you suggest, why does he mention the return of the Heralds in the aftermath of a Desolation? The Heralds should have shown up together with the Desolation. The tech level in the Nohadon's vision is also higher/more than that seen in the Prelude (i.e. rags vs three story tower).

 

Moreover I had assumed that the Prelude bookended the furthest back in time the story was going to go, at least in terms of on-screen presence.  That however is an assumption not an argument. 

 

If Nohadon lived after the last Desolation how did we see the aftermath of a Desolation in the first place? I thought Taln suffering in Damnation prevented any Desolations taking place. 

It's pretty well established that Nohadon lived a long time before the previous Desolation. He mentions the return of the Heralds because the Heralds come back before every single Desolation. Afterwards, (whether they live or die) they get sent to Damnation (assumed to be Braize) where they are tortured endlessly until they are sent to Roshar for the next Desolation. 

As for the technological differences, there are multiple explanations. They had access to surgebinders that the current world did not have. The death of a large majority of the population and the vast amounts of destruction that the Desolations caused could have triggered something like the Dark Ages. 

Finally, Nohadon did not live after a Desolation. He lived through one. He was a King before the Desolation began.

I think it may be about what happens after the Mr. T has saved the world. Once the danger is gone what do the Orders do? They are humans with immense power but without any common foe to bind them. Breaking them may be the only way to stop the infighting and power struggles that would result in their being.

EDIT: I really like Honor being behind the Desolations. What if the Desolations is part of the means that Honor bound Odium to Roshar? It could even be that the Voidbringers are actually the rightful people of Roshar and the humans are the invaders, the "wrong doers" if you think of it.

The Stormfather does refer to the Parshendi as the ancient ones. So it's very possible that they are native to the land. Not to mention humans are VERY different from the natural flora and fauna of Roshar.

Humans don't really need to be in the wrong though. They might just be refugees as implied in their theology.

Besides, saving humanity should be an objective of the Knights.

Therefore, they would in fact align with The Diagram, or not?

The Radiants obviously mean well. But it might be that their very existence is making the fight harder. Or at least that's how it's perceived by Mr T and Nalan.

In the vision of the Recreance the actions of the KR felt too deliberate. I don't see Gavilar's sphere mind controlling the Randiants.

Also, Syl's wasn't trapped in Shardblade form when Kaladin disconnected from her, which could make a difference. That and I think I remember there being a hint in the book that resurrecting a spren would require the person to whom that spren was originally bonded. I can't remember where that was though. I'll have to look for it on my re-read.

Yup. Pretty sure Pattern mentions that there's nothing that can be done. Then says unless their original partner was alive.

Likely dead... This is several hundred years after Warbreaker and Viv isn't a Returned. She doesn't get immortality from investiture like Vasher Kalad Zahel does. Sadly...

Keep in mind that travel between worlds makes time go fuzzy. Just because it's been a few hundred years since warbreaker, it doesn't mean that Zahel/Viv lived through them.

I don't see how that'd be possible though. The dead spren cease to exist as individuals. It seems like Syl was only able to be reformed because of a lingering connection to Kaladin. I take the screaming from the Shardblades to be the screaming of the collective force that the spren in question represent, more than any individual spren.

It's specifically mentioned by Syl that spren don't die in the same way as humans. They only die "sort of".

I am not sure this is entirely true. She wanted stormform, but then quickly tried to back out. You could be correct, but it could also be the case that she just didn't back out quickly enough. She also had the spren ready and captured. The parshmen throughout Roshar will need to attract them.

They don't need to attract them. If you read the description of the Everstorm you'll see that there are red spren in abundance. Also if you notice the sharp change in behaviour in Eshonai you'll see that the voidspren are perfectly OK forcing others to do as they wish.

Disagree with the Eshonai bit but it would be interesting to see if it would be possible to bond the dead spren to parshendi. If it is possible, maybe that's what finally saves Eshonai.

I'm guessing a parshman just has to avoid getting into the everstorm. However since they are so connected to the cognitive realm, they can be easily persuaded to come out into the storm. The rebel parshendi who have a stronger mind will manage to stay inside and therefore safe. Plus once transformation is completed, it will be easy for the voidbringers to just force the rest to come out into the storm.

It doesn't say that he is bound by the Oathpact. Only that he is trapped in his system and he hasn't killed another Shard in a very long time. It is likely, but unless it says it in cannon I don't trust Brandon not to flip something we think we know on our heads!

EDIT: I also just realized the implications of this section for the broader Cosmere.

Aona/Skai were thus slain "millennia" ago.

We know that the Oathpact being broken by the 9 was also 4.5 millennia ago. Does this help us place the slaying Aona/Skai in the chronology at all?

It also means that Hoid has been bopping about the Cosmere for a VERY LONG time. Also that Demoux and Galladon have been running around the cosmere for 300+ relative years, though perhaps not subjective years, depends on how world hopping actually works and if it does work in different ways.

Don't have the source for it but i remember Brandon mentioning that traveling to different planets isn't instantaneous. Also Wit mentions that he doesn't always know when he will show up but that he ends up showing up during important events.

The letter also seems to imply that the original sixteen plus Hoid (and maybe more) were responsible for the shattering of Adonalsium. Also that Odium is still bound by the Oathpact.

Syl refers to the Stormfather as father because he is the spren version of Honour. Spren are ideas come to life. Stormfather is the idea that people have of Honour. And the mother wyndle refers to is almost certainly Cultivation.

On my cellphone so can't give sources but here's a paraphrase. Hopefully someone can fill it in for me.

Stormfather is the concept of Honour: see the conversations Dalinar has with him.

Mother = Cultivation: Wyndle mentions that mother has given up on humans. She has stopped fighting ever since he [almost certainly refers to Honour] died.

Spren refer to Stormfather/Cultivation as father/mother because they are splinters of them. Stormfather is a replacement/placeholder for Honour.

See, I'm taking that another way and assuming that the Unmade are Odium's version of Heralds, people torn apart until just the qualities he wanted in them are left.

Mr T's epigraphs say otherwise. They mention that the unmade are spren. One of them is responsible for the death rattles. Another one for the thrill.

The Skybreakers would be a good start.

It could mean that Nalan went back for his Honorblade and is a traitor to the rest of the Heralds.

It could mean one of the Four Radiants is a traitor. Let's go with Shallan for the moment...

It's a tricky epigraph, that's for sure.

Not sure if it's Nalan but there's 1 more honourblade being used. Szeth mentioned 7 being protected.

I don't think Syl was actually killed. He wasn't a full KR yet I don't think, so she still retained her mind, even though he broke the early oaths. At this point though, he'd kill her if he broke them again.

Also, are we assuming that a KR killed in the line of duty releases their spren instead of killing it? If so, then is that spren then available to bond with another person? Stormfather is kinda an example, but I'm assuming Honor didn't play by the same rules exactly.

It's mentioned multiple times that it's not possible to "kill" spren in the same sense as people. It's possible that kaladin breaking his oath "killed" syl then brought her back by realising his mistake.

Also, the Stormfather isn't Honour's spren in the same sense as syl is kaladin's spren. The Stormfather is the idea of Honour come to life.

Presumably because Dalinar's visions from Honor cover up to the Recreance?  I actually disagree because of WOB saying Honorspren are Splinters.

 

WOB: 

 

 

If Honorspren are Splinters, they post-date the Splintering of Honor.  If they give an order of KR their abilities, they predate the KR.  Furthermore, Nohadon mentions Honorspren in WOK, and that's prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant.

 

Of course one of those conditions could be flawed.  If not, I'm not sure how to explain the discrepancy for the timing of the visions.  Best guess is that we've got another Honor Splinter managing the visions.  Obviously something's left since the visions are around at all; besides that, we've got the big face in the sky when Kaladin is strung up.

Creation of Splinters doesn't require the Shard to be splintered. As Porridge mentioned, the Divine Breath that the returned hold are Splinters of Endowment. Endowment is not Splintered. 

Okay, That is just too freaking funny. I never thought I would see the day when an Xbauks and a Shintendo conversed with each other about TWoKs. 

That...I didn't even notice...My purpose in life has been found! Must find more consoles to converse with!

 

Ok the almighty created 10 orders of knights with specific purpose.

The Almighty did NOT create/found the KR. They were founded based on the Way of Kings. They were 10 orders of Surgebinders that were dedicated to serve mankind before, during and after the Desolations. The Surgebinders existed before Nohadon, the KR did not.

 

Ok I'm thinking couple of things here.

Can I take it literally? did the knights went on a assignment? did the almighty "called" them and they arrived?

Again the Almighty had very little to do with the KR (as far as we know). Bonding with spren created Surgebinders, however the KR were more of a unified group of Surgebinders following the teachings of the Way of Kings and their own specific Ideals. 

 

 

 

 I did not teach my Heralds this.

The almighty taught the knights something (is it purpose? powers?)

The spren, imitating him, gave them something he had given men in general (surgebinding?).

The Almighty talks about teaching the Heralds, not the Knights. The spren imitated the Heralds (the 10 Heralds for the 10 orders of KR)

 

Why the instruction to create a fortress? Can I assume the old one in the Purelake got destoryed if not why not use it instead?

even so Can't they operate without a fortress that can handle the storm? the army did fine with the storm till now.

Is the fortress location significant to the location of the enemies? you build a fortress in important place to launch attacks from.

As others have pointed out, I think the fortress is a metaphor. Basically just keep surviving and make Odium think that he will lose again. If he makes a reckless choice out of desperation (like choosing a champion), it might give humans an edge.

This is not quite true. Szeth's sucking in of Stormlight interferes with the gemstones powering the Plate. When he absorbs Stormlight from the gems, it most likely just causes his Shardplate to fail so it doesn't provide any enhanced mobility. This is why he has to choose between Plate and Lashings; if he Lashes, his Plate becomes a few hundred pounds of dead weight on him.

 

It seems plausible that Shardplate was powered by the Stormlight that Surgebinders leak. They wouldn't have used gemstones in ancient times for anything but repairing it after a battle if the theory is true.

You are right. His lashings interfere with the Shardplate not the other way around. 

2.   It also goes along with the fact that when the KR gave up (Deserted) their Shardplate and Shardblades they stopped Glowing.

Thanks for reminding me. I forgot to add that on. We also know from WoB (can't seem to find it now...) that there is something different between modern Plate and the Plate that the KR wielded. 

However, as I said in my first post ever here, I believe that the story of Parasaphri and Naphris is the story of what Cultivation did after the death of Honor.  After Honor died, Cultivation took his Splinters and mixed them with spren to create the 10 children/new nation of sentient spren and ultimately KR.  They were linked to the "seedstones" associated with the Heralds, aka the gemstones linked to the Essences, and because of the Honor mixture, they grant these same Surgebinding abilities-- I'm going to say that none is 100% Honor or Cultivation, that while half of them may be more ideational in makeup, love or wisdom or truth or honor, and half may be more natural like plants and stone and air, they all have some of each.  To go a step further, I'll posit that all the Surges are just an extension of Honor's existing magic system, and what they get from Cultivation is the ability to bond with KR in the first place.

You weren't kidding with the long post. You covered a lot but the biggest problem I have is with this bit. Honour didn't get splintered until after the KR were formed (probably at least a few millenia). So the whole concept of taking the Splinters of Honour and creating the 10 children/nations who then became the 10 orders of the KR goes out the window. 

Edit: I do however agree with Odium corrupting spren. Not sure if that is the full extent of Odium's influence on Roshar though.

 

 

“A spren that doesn’t act like it should,” the man said. “Keep your eyes open. Once Sja-anat touches a spren, it acts strange. Call attention to anything you see.”

 

 

“It’s here, then,” the knight said. “Sja-anat’s spy. Caeb, run to the checkpoint. The rest of you, keep watching. It won’t be able to go far without a carrier.” She yanked something off her belt, a small pouch.

These two quotes from the WoR vision kind of support that theory.

Surgebinding

• The spren become Splinters gaining sentience, and now each represent an ideal

 

Voidbinding

• The spren "feed" of the ideal and become Splinters (Odiumspren? Voidspren?)

We have no evidence that something can "become" a splinter. The only other splinters we have seen are the Aons (at the heart of Seons) and the Divine Breath that the Returned hold. While we know nothing of the origins or creation of the Seons, we do know that the Divine Breath is given by Endowment.