xbauks

1.   It is the only thing that makes sense considering that the further you go back in time, the less technology they have.      

Can you explain what this has to do with any of this? Are you suggesting that the lack of technology would prevent the KR from creating the Shards in any other way?

 

 

“I’m sorry. He does not like me to speak of him. It makes him anxious. The knights’ breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren. Many spren died; I’m certain of it. Though Ivory won’t speak of it, I gather that what he’s done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind.”

Unless Jasnah is wrong, many spren did die during the Recreance.

We also know:

1. Szeth has no Spren and most likely he is holding Jezrien's Honourblade (source of his Surgebinding).

2. Shardplate interferes with Szeth's Lashings.

3. KR are shown to be using some of their Surges while in Plate.

Some possible explanations:

1. KR can only use some of their powers while in Plate. (I doubt it)

2. Plate and Blade were forged by a Surgebinder with help of their Spren and therefore "attuned" to their Surgbinding. (I'm thinking this is most likely)

3. Spren turn into Plate and Blade after achieving KR status.

Feel free to add to the evidence/explanation list.

I would agree with this mostly. The 40 Parables are the key to reaching a higher level of synchronization with each of the different types of spren. If a KR initiate aspires to live up to the appropriate parables, they should find it easier to reach a point where they know the words to speak. I only say mostly because not all Orders are concerned with Honor.

 

This could also lead one to wonder if the words are always the same, or if they vary slightly from person to person within an Order. I imagine that they can and do vary since Kaladin spoke those words in modern Alethi, and the Knights Radiant spoke them in a long lost language. I don't believe that Kaladin spoke Dawn Chant when he said the words. If it can vary by language, it can vary in phrasing as long as it means the same thing to the person saying it.

The only time the origin of the Ideals is mentioned is when Teft says that the Ideals were based on the WoK.

But what if it's the other way around? It's strongly implied that Nohadon and/or Karm are Windrunners. What if the WoK is written based on the Ideals and therefore make it easier for KR recruits to reach higher Ideals? What if it was written with the intent that those who read it and follow it have an easier time making the Nahel bond?

I know nothing.  Here's the best I've got.

1. Two inferential reasonings:

a. Nohadon talks about walking (from Abamabar) to Urithiru in the in-book WoK.  I think the Knights were involved in establishing Urithiru. 

b. Nohadon's parables relate to ideals including 5th ideal for each order.  If the 5th ideals were known, there were 5th ideal Radiants. 

 

2. Jasnah tells Shallan that the Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the Recreance (chapter 45)

 

3. I can't tell whether Honor was splintered before or after the Recreance. 

Recreance vision argues for after, but it could have been a future vision.

The epigraph before chapter 2 that says something like "Ten orders.  We were loved, once.  Why have you forsaken us, Almighty!  Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" seems like it could have been a Radiant after the splintering. 

1a. I couldn't find any reference to the Knights establishing Urithiru. In Dalinar's vision "Starfalls" the KR mentions that the Orders are based in Urithiru but the KR live in Alethela. 

1b. Only reference I could find to this was Teft. He mentions that the KR based their Ideals on the WoK. If there is another reference I missed please let me know.

2. Thanks for pointing this out. I completely missed this.

3. I had missed that epigraph as well. What if the splintering of Honour made the KR realize that the Heralds had lied? That they hadn't won and that the Desolations were going to keep coming. 

There are many clues that there were highstorms before Honor's splintering.

What I believe is that during a highstorm there is a rift between realms (spiritual and physical), and the spiritual energy leaks and is being captured in gemhearts. Maybe because gemhearts themselves are not of the physical, but are formed again in a rift between realms.

BS said that the Highstorms are like the Mists. Could the Gemhearts be like the beads of Atium? part of Honour/Cultivation/Odium's body?

I would do the timeline as follows:

-Nohadon vision

-KR formed, WoK written, Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime  (I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that the KR were formed while Nohadon was alive. It's just mentioned that the KR were formed based on the WoK.)

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could be here)

-Starfalls vision

-multiple desolations (Purelake vision could also be here)

-the last Desolation, Heralds betrayal

-splintering of Honor possible here

-abandonment of Urithiru (I couldn't find any evidence for this. Can  you point to me why you think this falls here?)

-splintering of Honor also possible here

-Recreance

-splintering of Honor also possible here (Since there is a vision of the Recreance I'm inclined to back this as the time period when Honour was splintered)

-Hierocracy

-Sunmaker

-Shattering and fall of Natanatan 

I thought the Recreance resulted in the Hierocracy. The betrayal of the KR being such a blow to the moral of the people that the Vorin church was able to step in and sieze control.

This feels off. We know that the last desolation was 4500 years ago or so. We know that almost no written works from that time period exist. The radiants existed then, the Heralds mentioned them in conversation. At the time of the desolation nohadon experienced he had not yet written The Way of Kings, so I'm inclined to believe that while the Radiant's used The Way of Kings, they predate it.

Surgebinders existed before the Way of Kings was written by Nohadon. However, it is believed that the KR were founded on the Way of Kings. This would imply that the Way of Kings predates the KR. If we were to carry this further, this means that the Nohadon vision took place BEFORE the last Desolation.

Here is the general consensus of the timeline:

-Second to last Desolation

-Nohadon vision

-KR formed based on WoK

-Starfalls vision

-the last Desolation

-Heralds' Betrayal

-WoR vision

-Recreance

-Hierocracy

-Gavilar's Murder

-Present day

Correct me if I missed something. This is off the top of my head. 

I think that the First Ideal is different from the rest of the Ideals. I think that each of the other Ideals (2-5) are inherent to the Spren that the Surgebinder is bonded to. That would mean that they are the same for each member of the Order before and after the KR were formed. However, I think that the First Ideal only became the First Ideal after the KR were formed. Before this point, there was no "First Ideal".

Some things I noticed:

-When Kaladin says the Second Ideal, Syl only asks "Do you know the Words?" She never tells him what the Words are. Nor does she say the Words of the Second Ideal.

-Kaladin doesn't know the Words until after he has absorbed Stormlight. (Might be because he wasn't thinking about them. He was more focused on getting to the other side.)

-The First Ideal is mentioned in the book Way of Kings. None of the others are. 

-Nohadon laments "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honourspren" when talking about Alakavish. What if Nohadon was trying to do what the Spren could not. What if he was trying to create a Kingdom where regardless of whether someone was bonded to an Honourspren, they would be as honourable as a Windrunner.

I think it will have to happen at some point. The whole reason odium is splintering the shards is so that someone else won't just pick up the shard and oppose him.

My bad, yeah, i think i remember what you're talking about. Something about it being very hard to remake a splintered Shard, but not necessarily impossible.

Exactly yes. I can't seem to find the source for it. If someone else finds it or has the link I'd appreciate it. I want to make sure I'm not remembering some theory.

Edit: found it. It's the 3rd question. It's not exactly what I was looking for but its close enough.

Ooh, that is a realy good thought, except that

 

Honor was splintered by Odium, meaning not only is the person who held Honor before now dead, but Honor himself/itself has been destroyed, as far as we know, beyond fixing. In Mistborn, however, Preservation's Shardholder was dead, but Preservation herself/itself was still alive, just without a host with which to direct her/it's power. So as cool as it would be for the Almighty to be rebirthed and walk this world like a god, it probably won't happen.

WoB: It is possible to remake a splintered Shard. Going to look it up and get back to you with a link.

Edit: Here it is. It's the 3rd question. This is the closest I could find so far. So It is possible to fix Honour.

Just finished Hero of Ages and was thinking along the same lines.

 

More along the lines of someone is going to have to do a Vin and absorb a highstorm (everstorm?) for Honor to be rebirthed.

This seems more likely. The mists helped "snap" people. They didn't give anyone powers. The power was already in thier genes.

This kind of fits into an idea I have about the Heralds. I think Honor and Cultivation created 10 spren to bind with the Heralds and give them surgebinding powers. Then the 10 names of the Almighty would be the names of those 10 spren.

This is contradicted by one of new excerpts.

I was going to make a new thread for my theory but it just seems more convenient to put it here. <WoR Spoilers ahead!>

Here are the things we know from the books/excerprts. 

1. The KR were still fighting some force when the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoned their shards. (most probably the Parshendi)

2. Sometime after this, the Parshendi are enslaved and (speculation) all of them are turned into slaveform (Parshmen).

(Alternate theory: The children are born as slaveform. As they age, they learn to change into the different forms.)

3. Only the Stonewards and Windrunners are shown to have abandoned their shards.

4. Nohadon says "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honourspren."

5. From the excerpts, Jasnah tells Shallan "There is a complex sort of conflict between [the Cryptics] and the Honourspren."

6. The Almighty tells Dalinar "I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible."

Theory: Some orders of the KR came up with a plan to enslave the Parshendi. This would be opposed by the Windrunners, and perhaps even some of the others (including Stonewards) . To avoid conflict, atleast the Windrunners and Stonewards were kept in the dark about these plans. When the Windrunners and Stonewards found out about the plan to enslave the Parshendi, they revolted. They broke the Nahel Bond and gave up their shards.

(Speculation: Perhaps the Honourspren told the Windrunners  that if enough of the Nahel Bonds are broken simultaneously, it would create a strong enough disruption in Shadesmar to break ALL the Nahel Bonds. Thus hopefully stopping the enslavement of the Parshendi.)