Kyzkle

So here's a fun quote: That means that the Stormfather is probably an active entity in Shadesmar. My bet is that he's some type of spren, like the Nightwatcher or Cusicesh.

Unfortunately, I doubt it. All the sailors can see Pattern, so it seems he has trouble hiding himself. Edit: yes, just saw your edit. Also, I don't think Syl or Pattern are any more of Honor than the other. Syl associates with the human concept, not necessarily the Shard.

I absolutely love Pattern. It's also interesting that abstractions come so easily to him. This really supports my theory that they aren't liespren so much as obfuscationspren.

WOO! I was actually about to post this as well. Time to start obsessing again!

Before seeing how twisted the heralds have become (I assume) I actually believed that the ten fools were invented by Vorin tradition to provide an allegory for bad behaviors. Given the lack of importance placed on them, I'd doubt they're really part of Vorin canon, more like folklore that's been attached over the years to flesh out morality. Pure Vorinism doesn't really define "Bad" behaviors because the evil is in the voidbringers and the desolation and good is in the Heralds and men. The ten fools seem more like a catch-all for people who do something stupid, but not necessarily evil. That being said, I don't think it could have arisen from the fallen Heralds. After breaking the Oathpact they went their separate ways, so no one should have lumped their behaviors back together as "ten fools". Also, there's the fact the "Herald" is always capitalized, but "fool" never is, and there are only 9 Heralds left on Roshar, but they still say "ten fools". On the original question, I don't think that it's enough to let the Heralds die. I think at one point the phrasing was "the Oathpact has been shattered", which implies that it can't simply be restarted. Even if they were to die, that wouldn't mean the Oathpact has been remade, just as sending somebody a check doesn't mean you own their house. I belive that there are currently two options: they can either remake the Oathpact, or they can try to defeat Odium. If they try to remake the Oathpact, I agree with Bloodfalcon that the Heralds will be replaced with POV characters, but it may not be possible without Honor. In this case, they would have to defeat Odium directly. I don't yet see how they could do this, but I have a hunch that it will involve Harmony and probably more than a few other shardworlds.

Honestly, Hoid and Friends would make an awesome story to read. I was also surprised at how quickly he brought the ideas of the unfettered internet together. Man's got some serious writing chops. Also, Hoid is apparently the most powerful non-shard in the universe... I thought that he was travelling to shardworlds to understand their magic, then was going to use his lerasium bead to write them all into himself, but I doubt he needs to.

For those of you who missed the waygate foundation livewrite, Brandon did a Q&A that revealed all. It turns out that Hoid is a Dragon ship captain. Also, Patrick Rothfuss no longer has a beard...

I wouldn't consider what the Aimians do as magic, just a physiological (though fantastic) quirk. As Brandon said, investiture is not hereditary on Roshar. In fact, I would say it's not even hereditary on Scadrial, as it operates by altering sDNA which is passed down in generations. The investiture itself isn't passed, just it's effects. The alterations made by sDNA just allow the Allomancer access to the actual power behind allomancy. In regards to the Thrill, my bet is that it's tied to Odium somehow. Kaladin could be "immune" to it because he doesn't fight for glory or the joy of it; he fights to keep the people around him from dying. Whether or not he can really kill to protect, Kaladin's belief that he is may be what's keeping him from it. (side note: if BS really used the word "immune" when referring to the absence of the Thrill, I think we can safely say that it is not a good thing, and that it is being afflicted ON things by an external force)

Sort of the opposite of my guess, so I hadn't considered that. If that's true, maybe whoever he was working with wants him dead. That would explain why his paranoia has been increasing... He also seems more stable now that he's accepted the changes in Dalinar. Where did you find this? I just checked and didn't see much mention of him, beyond the fact that he's there. I also checked the WoK intro to be safe, and he actually talks to the two foreigners that Jasnah comments on. That has got to be an interesting conversation... (p.21, if you want to see. I'd paste it here, but kindle apparently won't let me copy text.) EDIT: Never mind. I didn't make the connection that Darkness was actually one of those two. That adds lots of depth, then...

I'm not sure his lying about the assassination attempt is a big enough secret to draw the Cryptics. Nobody seemed to really care that much, until Sadeas began to use it to take control. Shallan's secret was more than just "I killed my father", it was "I am a murderer". In those terms, (which are the terms the Cryptics seem to be interested in) Elhokar could say "I am a liar" but that's not much of a secret. I think that Elhokar's fear of assassins deserves a little more digging. It's explained that he fears them because his father was assassinated, but the Parshendi made it very clear that they were the ones responsible. Considering that the Parshendi aren't exactly in a position to covertly assassinate anyone, his fear isn't just irrational, it seems contradictory to his feelings towards the Parshendi. We pretty much know that Gavilar was involved in some top secret business before he died, but what if he revealed to Elhokar his plans before he died? That would imply that Elhokar fears assassins because he is continuing his fathers work. That seems like it could be a secret worth the Cryptics time...

I was just thinking: the Cryptics seem to be attracted to Shallan either because she was lying to Jasnah, or because she was keeping a terrible secret. Since it appears Elhokar is being followed by them as well, does he have a similar secret? Nothing we've read so far seems to dig that deeply into his character, but I think he's got something going on that we haven't noticed yet. Has anyone seen anything suspicious from him?

Yeah, it's Teft is constantly correcting people by saying that Kaladin is NOT a radiant. However, Nohadon mentions that not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren. Surgebinders of other orders don't naturally have the sense of honor that windrunners have, which led to Alakazish's war. I agree with @Daishi5 and @Natans that the men were probably Radiant initiates. We associate shardplate and blades with the Radiants, but there isn't any reason we should believe they ALL had them. Unlike other visions, these men weren't defending their homes and families, they were hunting some sort of twisted spren. My guess is that they were being taken out by a full Radiant to get some real-world experience, where failure meant a boring mission and return to Urithiru (I assume). Remember: the thunderclast was completely unexpected.

I would think that going to the spiritual realm to attack the spirit of another person would have the same effect as attacking it in the physical realm: they would probably cry and give in to whatever you wanted of them. If one were to actually travel to the spiritual realm, you would simply perceive the actions differently. The attacker would "See" the soul being beaten up, but outside observers would see the attacker verbally abuse the victim or something. Completely destroying the spirit would have the same effect regardless of how it's done: the person would lose all will to live and likely commit suicide or otherwise give up on life. I actually disagree that there can be imbalances between the realms. It's not just that something exists "more" in one realm or another, it's that it is simply easier to describe and relate to when perceived from a specific angle.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. If I recall correctly, the mists were created by Preservation while he was holding Ruin. This could be a similar situation, where Cultivation is desperately trying to hold off Odium, sending the storms as a last-ditch effort to get Humanity to help. I was just bored and digging through an old Q&A when I found this gem: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42206 If Fabrials are really part of another magic system on Roshar, it seems like the most likely to be powered by Honor. While modern fabrials operate by capturing spren, what if the ancient fabrials simply bonded the spren? That would imply that of the 30 types of magic on Roshar, the 10 surgebinding abilities are of Cultivation, the 10 voidbinding abilities are of Odium, and the remaining 10 have some relation to fabrials, and operating using spren bonds.

I actually hadn't read that, Thanks for the clarification. I still don't know if I believe that it caused the rift between spren and man, especially Honor was alive through it. I guess we'll have to wait until there's a clearer timeline. I hadn't actually analyzed the Recreance flashback with this theory in mind yet. That also gives a lot of credence to the theory that Shardblades are actually the spren of sufficiently advanced Radiants, so kudos for that catch. I don't actually think she realizes that she's wrong. She admits that she isn't an expert on the spren in shadesmar (especially spren politics, in chapter 3 of WoR), and since the Cryptics are pretty reclusive even with regards to other spren, I don't think most other spren really understand them. Any second hand account she's gotten has probably been colored by reputation and the dispute between Honorspren and Cryptics. If we assume Darkness has been hunting spren for a while, let's throw in this revision: individual spren had been bonding with humans sporadically since the Recreance, but it was considered to be a taboo. I'm also still assuming Lift has been bonded for a while when we see her viewpoint. Even if this isn't the case, I'd still like to believe that Shallan and Kaladin's bondings were related to the Cryptic/Honorspren issue. At the very least, it'll make for an interesting meeting in front of a very confused Adolin. I'm not super committed to this theory, I just wanted to throw it out there to see what would stick. Thanks for the feedback!

So I'm not sure where I got this idea in my head, but it seems to be pretty common: most people believe that the highstorms are somehow related to Honor (or in the case of vorinism, Jezrien). I think it's been thrown around that it's the remains of his shard's investiture raining back to Roshar and recharging spheres, because Dalinar only has his visions (sent by Honor) during highstorms. While this is certainly a reasonable assumption, I was just thinking today: what if the highstorms are actually caused by Cultivation? I always found it strange that stormlight (investiture from the storms) could be so easily stored in gemstones, which have nothing to do with binding, oaths, or honor of any sort. (Words of Radiance preview spoilers!) On the other hand, Almost every aspect of the surgebinding process seems to relate to Cultivation. The storms themselves are nourishing to plants, the investiture accumulates in gemstones (which are grown over long periods of time) and promotes vigor and healing in whoever holds it. Soulcasting is the closest it comes to Honor, with bargains being struck. Overall, the flow of power in the surgebinding system seems like a very Cultivation type thing to do: The world is showered in stormlight, which increases the amount of life and energy available to the people it affects. So what if Honor's only contribution to magic on Roshar is the Nahel bond, while the actual economy of magic is powered by Cultivation? I think the coppermind says that Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all have their own planets in the greater Roshar solar system, so that would imply Cultivation has her own world to manage. From descriptions of life just after a highstorm, though, I'm inclined to think it's really her doing. Thoughts? Edit: Also, it may be the case that Cultivation is broadcasting Honor's message, which explains why Dalinar only gets them during highstorms. It could be Odium, but I don't think Sanderson would use the same Ruin/Preservation trick again.

I don't buy that the betrayal the spren talk about is the death of Tanavast. I don't think the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact would have sit well with Honor had he been alive, so I think it's safe to say that he died before then. Since we know the Recreance happened long after this, we know that spren were still bonding with humans after Honor died. My bet is that something we haven't seen happened to the Radiants to make them betray the spren, then AFTER the spren abandoned them, they were forced to give up being Radiants. Pretty much pure conjecture, but I think it makes sense... I also think that the politics behind the spren returning are a little more complicated than a lot of people are making it seem. Wyndle was SENT to bond with Lift, Ivory went against his people (or spren, as it were) and I believe it appears that Shallan's spren was actually sent by a group of peers. Let me run this theory by you guys: Conjecture Ahead! Six years ago, the spren began to hear the rumblings of trouble on the horizon. Just like the physical world, it was an unpopular idea and shrugged off by most. Ivory somehow becomes convinced that something needs to be done and is the first spren in generations to bond with a human; this actually mirrors Jasnah's suspicions and actions perfectly, which is possibly why he chose to bond with her. Fast forward a few years and the spren are still against trusting humans, but the fear is spreading. The Nightwatcher gives Lift incredible abilities and powers, and a group of spren decide that she is the perfect test case for returning to the physical world. They send Wyndle to bond with her while she is young in order to mold her into a Radiant they know won't betray them, as well as to ensure her unique abilities aren't turned against them (as Lift is partially in the cognitive realm). This is the first endorsed bonding for the spren, and is slowly followed up on by a few individual spren with the same motivation as Ivory (primarily fear). I believe the next big event in this chain is the bonding of Syl. Jasnah mentions that Honorspren and Cryptics are having some political differences, which leads me to believe that Shallan's bonding was actually triggered by Kaladin's. Once the Honorspren had a bonded human, it essentially gave them an "agent" in the physical world to work toward there interests (encouraging more honor in others, I assume), which put them in a better position than the Cryptics. To even things out the Cryptics needed to bond a human, but Cryptics being Cryptics, they didn't just go and bond with Shallan: they began pushing her towards jasnah to teach her, then bond her once they're sure she will make an effective candidate. Now for my evidence: This is mostly based on the timeline of bondings, but I could be wrong on my assumption of Lift's bonding. Jasnah's and Kaladin's are laid out pretty clearly, and I stand by my analysis of Shallan's. I believe the first time they take her to Shadesmar, it was done entirely on their own, like Syl binding people's shoes and other such pranks. The second time, they mention that the stronger her truth, the stronger "the bond" will be. I think this was the actual moment of her bonding. Second, smaller theory: I don't believe Jasnah when she says "Liespren" is a more accurate name. Rather, Their fractal patterns and search for truths seem more related to illusions or at the very least, complexity (in the information entropy sense). By her own admission, Jasnah doesn't actually know much about Cryptics; probably just second hand information from other spren. Given there apparent power in shadesmar and their opposition to honorspren, it seems like they prefer to keep things obfuscated and complicated. My analysis of their behavior: by bonding Shallan, I think we can assume they have some preference for her type of personality. Shallan isn't a compulsive liar creating false truths, but a passive liar who simply omits great secrets. She also has a penchant for twisting the words of others; it's not lying, it's looking at a twisted version of reality, just like the twisted, impossible pattern. Looking at Hoid (another confirmed Lightweaver), it's the same way: a love for twisting the truth around for fun, but harboring more secrets than anything save Adonalsium itself (and even that may not be true...). Anyway, my rambling is over. Clearly, that's been distracting me since tor released the new chapters. Not that I'm complaining, but they've really destroyed my productivity for the last week or so. Thoughts?

I was told by the internet to post here first, and who am I to question the internet? Anyway, for the sake of introductions, I'm Alex. I just finished reading WOK for the third time, and figured I should start a presence here in anticipation of the flurry of revelations that I'm sure will follow the release of WOR. (In all honesty, it was kicked off by the chapters released by tor today. There's just SOOO much to pick through now!) I've been a long time reader of various posts and theories but haven't posted anything, as I've been playing catch up ever since I first finished WOK. As far as espoused theories, there's not much I could say that hasn't already been said before; the 17th shard is on the purelake, Hoid is writing the letter (though have yet to see why it can't be a shardholder), and Baxil's mistress is Shalash... I suppose one thing to add is that if Shalash is alive, that implies that all of the other heralds are as well. Anyway, I'm sure there is lots more to learn and WOR is sure to add tons of awesome stuff to that pile. Thanks!