Kier

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Spook wrote that book himself.

You need to reread Hero of Ages my friend. Hero of Ages Page 723:
"Spook knelt beside them, listening to Ham and Breeze cry out. They examined teh bodies, checking for vital signs, but Spook focused on something else, almost hidden in the grass.
He picked it up - a large leather tome."

Sazed rote the history of the world. 

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We in fact do not know that Spook ever spiked himself.  Yes Kelseir did explain hemalurgy to him but Spook already knew a lot about that and seems to have made his own decisions. 

Read the end of Secret History again.:
"A dream? he considered, then -- perhaps against his better judgement -- jabbed the rhing through his ear." -- Spook at the end of Secret History, the spike being made from an old inquisitor spike, and Kelsier apears when this happens and tells Spook basically "good job for listening to me, now we can really get to work on getting me back to the physical realm."

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Some people who survived the remaking already knew about hemalurgy including Spook, the kandra, Sazed, Marsh, and Trell.

Yes, although I feel like I read somewhere that Sazed... maybe its in Allow of Law... tried to reduce or limit knowledge of hemalurgy after the remaking.... or at the very least tried to warn Spook from playing with it... Which Spook promply ignored, and from the evidence he ignored it largely on the prompting and councel of Kelsier.

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That really depends what you mean.  He is an unquestionably dangerous individual but I would not characterize him as evil either.

I wouldn't say Evil either. Chaotic Netural if we wanna go down that path - 100%. He has his goals, and for the most part I don't think Kelsier would set goals that intentionally harm innocient people. However his view of innocient is I'd say is quite broad.. Ie - He doesn't think a guard trying to work for his family in the Final Empire is innocient becuase he works for a noble. 

12 hours ago, Karger said:

With the possible exception of Elend(I would absolutely have done the same thing and I love Elend) Kel didn't do anything I would consider unethical.

So, Kelsier, who I would guess probably KNOWS that Sazed left everything and anything out about Hemalurgy in his book to Spook... speaks to him over and over and gets him to spike himself for the SOLE purpose of finding a way to make a new thread for Kelsier to tie himself to the Physical Realm - going against what one of his best, long lasting, most loayl friends says, and after watching his most hated rival The Lord Ruler, and Vin, and Elend all pass to the Beyond... instead of following him like he knows he could, he pushes Spook to spike himself and paves the way for Hemalurgy to rise again on the renewed planet just so that Kelsier can have the satisfaction of retying his soul to the Physical Realm and learning about the cosmere. That sounds pretty unethical to me... and Sounds exactly like a starting point for a group like the Ghost Bloods. 

His goals are basically get as much knowledge and power about the Cosmere as possible and find a way to get me back inot the Physical Realm. I'm sorry if I burst your bubble but Kelsier isn't, and wasn't a good guy. yeah he liked his crew to trust eachother and to not work against one another ever. Oh... wait thats one of the core tenants of a Ghost Blood once you are in. Yeah Kelsier while in MB1 wouldn't have done things the way Marize does when recuriting Shallan. however, Kelsier is on another planet and probably dones't have as much oversight as he did when he runs things himself... and it has been 300 years since he became a CS. He probabaly changed... and I'd guess not for the best

I havent read all the posts in this thread, but wanted to put in my 2 cents.

Ive seen alot of talk around "the GBs can't be led by Kelsier because they are ruthless, killing random cabbies??" And the like.

Did you guys read a different Kelsier than me? Sure, Kel was MOSTLY a good guy and wanted a good outcome... but he was 100% the ends justify the means, and he was 100% your for me or agaisnt me. 

Your a skaa working for a noble? Have a coin through your skull, or a glass knife through the heart. You are in the way of my ambition. He was hardly moral, and I for one can 100% see him killing randos on other planets that are in the way of his goals.

On 9/27/2017 at 8:19 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I think I read somewhere that it pains the dead spren to be summoned as Shardblades. Take it with a grain of salt though. 

The only thing that I have found is that When you summon a shard blade you actually are reviving the Dead shard blade a bit. Giving it a kind of mini life from its entrapment. So I would say that it is not painful nor torture to summon them. 

11 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Syl: "It's us."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Nonsense. You practice every day.

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of talent."

 

What does it mean that the wind knew Kal?

Sounds to me like he already had a bond with spren as a child before Syl found him and that his talent is a result ofthat bond. 

Are you kidding me? This exchange proves you are wrong. 

"IT'S US." 

Aka its not me. its not the bond. its because of who you are AND the bond. 

Syl "Nonsense. You Practice Every Day." 

"The Advantage of Talent." 

If she was saying that it was her and the bond it would read like this.

Syl: "It's the Bond."

Kal: "It's cheating. Unearned."

Syl: "Its not unearned, you made the bond, that is where it comes from."

Kal: "I have an advantage."

Syl: "The advantage of a bond."

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

The implication from WoR is that Kal has always been under the influence of the bond. Can you think of any reasons that Sanderson would choose to have Kaladin and Syl indicate that his talent with a spear as an effect of the Nahel bond if the two are truly unrelated? I cannot. 

It's not as if he has abandoned the idea that Kaladin shared his bond even in childhood......

I find it likely that Shallan also had her incredible artistic ability from her own bond in much the same way.

Where are you getting this? 

Kal questions Syl if that is the case. but it is never confirmed. In fact It is stated by Teft and Syl that Stormlight can't turn a man into something he is not. AND it is very very clear that after Tien died that Kal nearly killed himself training. He is amazing with a spear - without the bond, and with it a paragon. And to say anything else is blatently ignoring the text.  

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

But they are not working on it. They are avoiding. Playing the happy couple, while they have deep nagging problems.

Atleast in Steris and Wax relationship there was honesty.

Do you tell someone your dating up front everything about you. Yeah I used to Smoke 6 joints a day and have a pre-disposition to Alcoholism. I don't think so. Honesty isn't something that you start off a relationship with. Not that you lie. but they aren't telling each other lies - they are avoiding truths (a lie of omission) but that is not the same as a upfront lie and that isn't saying they can't be honest later. You saying this proves they will never work is like saying someone on a first date who doesn't really like bowling but the date takes them bowling, and that person doesn't say "I don't like Bowling" means that that person is dishonest and will never be honest and the relationship will never work. 

So, I'm sitting at work listening to The Way of Kings for like the 7th or 8th time.

and the thought popped into my head... are Herolds on Roshar are as Returned to Nathlis? 

 Anyone know if that is the case? (Sorry for spelling and stuff... I am just at work, and dont have a copy of Words of Radiance with me. 

If healing from a gold metal mind works to heal a person to what they view themselves as, maybe it could be a "perk" of gold that allows him to imitate so well.

In Wor Kalidin can't heal his slave brand because of his cognitive view of himself. Maybe when Wayne slips into a roll fully he "heals" himself into thay person physically on some level.

This could also explain his obsession with HIS hat. He doesn't quite feel himself without it because quite literally he isnt.

Just throwing it out there.

Edit: oh, WoB basically say no to this, those weren't posted while I typed. Haha. Oh well.

I don't have much to add. I listened to the book on audio and it is much harder to pick up clues, at least for me, that way.

I knew the body that bleeder had taken was going to be lessie's.... but I was still blown away when she WAS lessie. (Sorry if I got her name wrong, don't have either nook in front of me at this moment.)

If Adolin is becoming a radiant I think at least he will awaken his blade

The rest could very well happen. We`ll see.

WoB says that it would require the one who originally made the oath to create the shardblade to revive the shardbalde... this plus 2000+ years at the least.... yeah I don't think you are finding Adolins original shardblade creator... that and if you did I don't think after re-swearing his oaths to revive is spren fully the then renewed Knights Radiant would give his blade and bond over to Adolin (I don't even think that is possible) 

Lightweaving is simply the act of using Illumination to change light into a pattern and create images. Truthwatchers use it to see the future somehow, Lightweavers use it to trick people and make illusions. Lightweavers are more adept at using illumination in the present, and do so. Truthwaters use it probably in conjunction with progression to see the future. 

thats how I see it. Also, A skybreaker using the lashings to fly with the winds, like Kaladin is windrunning. just like a windrunner.

I would say Ren is able to lightweave, just like a skybreaker will be able to do the 1 of the 3 lashings of a windrunner. The one that deals with gravitation, maybe the one that pulls stuff as well, giving an object its own gravitational pull, but part of me feels like that's partially a combination of both those because somewhere atmospheric pressure is also described as "vacuum" so... yeah.

Now, the Cryptics maybe just following Elhokar to make plans is interesting. I still don't think they would be scared off by just Syl though, maybe they needed him to be scared though to pressure Dalinar? Causing him to further his bond? 

Now I'm just grasping at straws...
 

I don't think she will awaken the spren in her shardblade. I'm pretty sure we wont see ANY of those be awoken. 

I also don't think the Comet like spren is a highspren. I do think its the type of spren a willshaper bonds.

I think Eshonai will have the Stormspren knocked from her because of the fall, then will waken and re-start her bond with the comet spren and become a Willshaper and that will make her immune to the forced everstorm change. 

Mmmm. Well thats troubling...

Doesn't disprove anything, as you said, but we really don't have ANYONE that I can think of that is near as good of a candidate for being a Lightweaver as Elhokar...Hence why up until I read that I did think he was going to be one. 

Something still is off for me though, I Can't see the Cryptics being "frightened off" by one Honor Spren if they are looking to bond him. Maybe its someone else, or maybe Elhokar did something to push the Cryptics away from him? 

However, Elhokar at the end of WoR is making self-exploration attempts, which from Shallans story is how your solidify the bond within the Lightweavers... mmmm.

 

Beware! Spoilers may follow...

I have up to this most recent re-reading of WoR believed Elhokar has been seeing Cryptics in mirrors and the corner of his eye. Alluding to his possibly becoming a Knights Radiant. 

However, When I read the following I can't give that credence. 

I now think that what Elhokar was seeing, was not Cryptics but some other Odium spren. That were frightened off by Syl and Kaladin. It is still possible that they were Cryptics as we know that Cryptics and Honor Spren don't see eye to eye. However, if the Cryptics were looking to bond Elhokar, I don't think they would let the appearance of one honor spren dissuade their attempts.

This may be weak, but for now, its where I stand. Discuss. 

So. I agree with you moogle, at least mostly. I think the first ideal is more a mantra, and a frame for the rest of the oaths, but is viewed differently by each order. For example.

for dalinar to live his orders oaths, the first oath is to leave sadeas alive. His orders oath is to unite. To do that in a "journey before destination" type of way is to guide people and provide mercy. Where as Dalinar could kill any who oppose him/offend him. And that way reach unity by having only those who will be united live. But that breaks the first oath.

however if it was Kaladin in Dalinars shoes. His oaths would push him to kill sadeas because he isn't willing to change and will thus harm more people. So in order to protect those people Sadeas needs to be stopped, permanently.

do you agree with this?

I also feel this is part of what lead to Honors mentioning of the KRs inner struggles.

Just another note that I just thought up in the sane vein as this...

while the KR came after some desolations happened so it is unlikely they "cause a desolation" as Nalan believes. Its important to remember a few distinctions.

1. Nalan says surge binders bring desolations, not KR.

2. Its important to remember in Dalinars vision, there were surgebinders BEFORE there were KR.

3. The KR are organized Surgebinders and made it more exclusive.

so Nalan can be correct. And that could be the secret that the KR learned that led to the Recreance.

This all being said. Its also possible that the secret the people of Roshar learned was that Honor and the Heralds where Honorably sacrificing their people in the Oathpact and the Desolation Cycles to keep Odium invested on Roahar. And they KR thought well if we abandon our Oaths, maybe Odium will leave our planet alone if all he cares about is shattering the shards. And that's why they abandon their oaths.

It really looked intentional in Dalinar's flashback, and the Spren see it as a betrayal, which implies it was on purpose to some extent. beyond that, no idea.

As for the Parshendi being their first. I have 100% always assumed that the Humans colonized the planet from somewhere else. It's bound into their theology, and makes a whole lot of sense. It's always had a significant Pern vibe in that sense.(And I like it.)

the living spren see it as a betrayal.. Its very possible the bonded ones that died also say the need for it.

Just my two cents here. I'm on my phone so I'm not going to quote anyone, but I may respond directly.

first of all the question of the ideals. Specifically the first ideal. Let me start by saying I don't know if I would say its "completely meaningless". I would say that it is applied by the interpretation of the bonding spren. I also believe that, by nahodans, that his interpretation is one held by the Honor spren. I would argue the same for teft. They had the Honor view of that ideal. I would say skybreaker high spren and bondsmith spren have the most similar view to this ideal. Where as cryptics would have a very different view. And say wyndle. Who seems to not have much issue with thievery and id be surprised if syl didn't have a word or two to say about that.

secondly, I think its important that its referred to as an ideal. Its exactly that. Meaning is to be lived for and after but its not a hard rule. Along with this I contend that its important to live by the moment. That's what I take life before death to mean. Journey before destination. I means if we had a way to act that was better, or would save lives, we are obligated to act in that way. Meaning it is better to save the one, even if 10 die. Because at that moment the choice was save one by action or condemn one by inaction. At least to honorspren.

In Dalinars case, its more important that people are unified. So, by giving mercy to people and allowing them to choose their own way he can guide them, and hopefully bring them to his needs. In his order this is journey before destination. Because it would be easier to kill people that disagree or slight him and just find others. But that's the wrong way to get a unified people.

did this make sense?

MMm mmm MMm.....

Maybe Nalan or another of the Heralds took it in that time period. If there was someone that could come up in a breif period and switch out Talns Honorblade with an unknown shardblade that is who I would suspect. 

However, there is no evidence to support that, and I can't really think of a reason for Nalan or any other Herald to go take Talns Blade..mmm

I personally think Renarin will be spending alot of time with Kaladin in WoR. I feel that Renarin has developed an acute sense of politics that both his father and his brother lack, but due to his body, he has never tried to be a leader. Kaladin is a great leader, but has no clue of the ins and outs of high alethi society. So by pairing them together, they could learn from each other as well as cover the others flaws.

 

Also Kaladin still seem to have harbor a hatred for the lighteyes; Renarin could be used as a plot device to help Kaladin to sympathize and move on from his distaste.

 

So any theories about why, Jasnah and her mother seem to be at odds?

This is a good point. I also really think Renarin might remind Kaladin of Tien. Just saying. They are both, small, "weak", and somewhat out of place. So he might really see Tien on Renarin and bond with him in some way becasue of that.

Welcome LordRuler. And thank you for your post! 

You make some good points, It would be a short end for Gaz and he did have the potential for being a bigger character. I don't really have any argument against your points. 

I am excited to find out what really did happen to Gaz! 

Edit:spelling

This is awesome. I very much agree and wouldn't be surprised that the Highstorms affect more than just the physical and your Idea of them actually originating from the Spiritual realm is really well prestened, and makes alot of sense. 

To me the Parshendi are the voidbringers, and likely some type of chasmfiend like things. 

We know that greatshells have violet blood. Humans most likely have red. and Parshendi, with their red/orange growths I'm going to venture have Red/orange blood.

In the Prelude, we see Kalak mentions 3 colors of blood. Violet, Red, and Orange.... mmmm.

More and more, after reading the bits about Darkness, i find myelf feeling like the KR WERE somehow the voidbringers..

Since Darknes is hunting down surgebinders in an attempt to forestall the next Desolation and such. It wasnt intentional, i dont believe, but the act of surgebinding brought the Desolations... OR was perceived to have since the Desolations stopped after the recreance and suregbinders stopped surgebinding.


Additionally:

"That creature carries my lords own blade" Creature could be either Elhokar or Szeth, i think. But i read "my lords own blade" as "your blade my lord"...

My pennies.

I think Darkness is wrong and that surgebinding doesn't bring a desolation. I think he feels that because its been so long. However, I think that Surgebinding is just someing that Humans did to stand against Desolations. And the more desolations that came the stronger and better Humans got and the more Humans created Surgebinders. 

However, when the Desolations stopped people started falling apart, the lost direction, they didn't have something to stand against... so surgebinding stopped, and humans digresed. Odium is hoping the continue to do that right up to the point that the Desolation comes.