Levian

Is this still active? Where do we go/how do we participate?

This is what I'm thinking as well. The Radiants probably know the cost of abandoning their oaths and they seem resigned, determined, and somewhat... depressed, or sad when they were actually abandoning their oaths. I'm wondering if - and this is just a crackpot theory - maybe Spren gaining intelligence attracts a different type of Spren... Odium Spren! Which in turn brings on the Desolations. So it's possible that the KR realized their bonds were contributing to causing the Desolations and knew they would have to abandon the bonds. This would sort of fit in with what we hear Nalan/Darkness talking about, in his mad desire to hunt down Surgebinders. I know it doesn't make much sense considering the fact we have WoB that says the Heralds being on Roshar too long can trigger a Desolation. Regarding that, I wonder if it is possible that the Heralds have bonded with Odium, and where ever the Heralds go, Odium has to follow. They keep him locked up in Braize but that is where he has most control, being able to torture the Heralds to try to force them back to Roshar so he could follow. This also has some problems though. First we know that one Herald is enough to hold the Oathpact and keep Odium on Braize, so shouldn't having even one Herald die during a Desolation immediately call Odium back? Unless he behaves like the Heralds and must be defeated and returned to Braize, which raises the question of how he is temporarily defeated each time.

I am of the mindset that the Voidbringers are merely byproducts of Odium Spren inhabiting different things/creatures/people. I'm inclined to agree that the Odium Spren are locked away on Braize with Odium until a Desolation occurs, so in that sense it could be considered a "world hopping" event. However, I don't agree with the bit about the Everstorm. I'm pretty sure that the Everstorm is unique to this Desolation, which is why it is claimed as being so different from previous ones. Because of this I definitely don't think there's an Everstorm on Braize that comes to Roshar when the Desolation happens, if that is what you are saying.

I'm 99% positive that Lift got that ability from the Nightwatcher. I don't have the quotes to back me up but Wyndle talks about how his Mother influenced her or gave her a gift that he doesn't fully understand... Which as a side note makes me even more convinced that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation, or Cultivation's Spren similar to the Stormfather. About Kaladin I'm also pretty sure his fighting skills are partially supernatural thanks to his bond. At one point Kaladin is talking to Syl and she confirms that their - at that point unknown to Kaladin - bond gave him an edge in combat. Now that could simply come down to Kal holding a bit of Stormlight to make himself stronger, more agile and able to heal, or maybe it's a more specific passive ability of the Windrunners. I can't remember about Shallan but I remember someone... Jasnah I think?... talking to her and coming up with the conclusion that something to do with her bond is what lets her take mental photographs. So all in all, I totally support this theory! Also, do we know all of the passive abilities all of the KR are given just by being able to hold Stormlight? Things like self-healing, reduction of fatigue, increase in strength and endurance, etc.

I'm actually wondering similar things myself. I could totally understand if the Heralds were so important just purely for them making the Oathpact, but there has to be some reason they would make such a difference directly in battle. Just from the WoB I saw confirming they can't surgebind without their blade, I was in serious doubt that an average person wielding an Honorblade would be as powerful as a Herald using it.

@Nymph It's totally possible, but it just seems like Nightblood works in a very similar way to Honorblades. A person Surgebinding can't directly use the Stormlight inside a gem, they have to Breathe it in first to use it, and in Warbreaker

Awesome, thanks Kurk! So this makes me wonder what the difference between somebody wielding an Honorblade and a Herald, other than their oaths is. It seems likely that they might have their own abilities possibly not native to Roshar, but why were they such a key instrument in winning - or surviving rather - the Desolations? Was is just their knowledge that brought back to mankind? It seems as if your average KR would be more powerful than a Herald just based off the general knowledge we have at the moment that Honorblade Surgebinding burns through Stormlight very quickly.

I know it's already been asked but I'll ask it again. Does anybody have any thoughts on what the Honorblades do for the Heralds, if anything? From WoB it has been implied that the Heralds may or may not have originally been from Roshar, and may possibly have abilities from other shardworlds. Do you guys think that a Herald's blade gives him access to the same two Surges it gives everybody else? Do they naturally have those 2 Surges without the blades? Is it possible they can use ALL the Surges, and the blades are just blades to them? But if that were the case then a regular Shardblade would work just as well...

Just possessing Nightblood wouldn't make Szeth one of the Gods from Warbreaker.

I think there's a pretty big significance to the fact that Szeth mentions that the "Voidbringers" could hold in Stormlight much more effectively. So far as we know, no Voidbringers can hold Stormlight. So that means the Shin think that the KR are Voidbringers. Why must his honor demand that the Voidbringers exist? Remember that the Voidbringers he is talking about existing are Surgebinders in the context of that quote. Not sure if this is WoR knowledge but just in case...

Ah see, that is one I haven't read yet

Ah that does make sense, I was under the impressing for some reason all the orders except the Lightweavers had been founded.. Thanks for that! So that leaves me thinking that it is indeed Taln still, but not as he should be. My guess is he has involuntarily bonded with an Odium spren and it is trying to take over his mind. Being the last Herald who hasn't been corrupted by breaking their vows and spending thousands of years brooding over the fact, if Odium could incapacitate him it would be a huge advantage.

Ah, very good point Wit. So the simplest idea is that Nohadon is not the Taln imposter. The second is that Dalinar didn't actually meet Nohadon, which at this point doesn't seem likely. I still like the idea that Nohadon is alive and possibly a Bondsmith though.

I mentioned all this in another thread The section where he sees Shallan Lightweaving is very interesting. Now, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as probably everybody else on these forums, but the Desolation we see the Heralds giving up the Oathpact was the last Desolation between then and our current point in the story. I don't remember what Taln said exactly, but he was sort of surprised by Shallan Lightweaving. He knew what it was but if I remember correctly, by what he said and his reaction there were no Lightweavers around that he had ever seen, commenting about how... someone who I forget the name of (Ishi?)... was successful in founding them. Now this strikes me as VERY odd. I highly doubt after the last Desolation, any of the Heralds went about recruiting or making the order of Lightweavers. Which means they were probably founded before the last Desolation, which is something Taln should know about isn't it? Which - unless I'm missing something - is some sort of evidence that the madman isn't Taln, but rather someone who is knowledgeable of the KR. I'm not sure, I'm probably missing something big here. I assumed Taln was on repeat because his mind snapped from torture and he was just repeating what he would have said in previous Desolations. But from the WoB we've seen, something is definitely wrong. Maybe he bonded with an Odium spren in a way similar to the Nahel bond, whether intentional or not, and it is trying to control his thoughts and actions similar to the Parshendi, but his will is strong enough that he is fighting it.

Great point, I never thought much about Kaladin Breating in Stormlight. I think it's just a similarity of the Cosmere though. From what I've read, all forms of Investature are absorbed through the mouth. There's Breath, Stormlight isn't just absorbed into your body, it has to be Breathed in, and metals from Mistborn are eaten. Even I wonder if this is going to be more significant in the future, or just a little fun fact and common rule of the Cosmere.

Honestly?

Out of curiosity, did I miss something important about Nohadon? What was shown in either book that would make somebody even consider that he may not be dead? Personally I never thought of him as anything more than someone who brought a kingdom together. Although that DOES sound something like a certain bondsmith we know. I assumed Taln was on repeat because his mind snapped from torture and he was just repeating what he would have said in previous Desolations. But from the WoB we've seen, something is definitely wrong. Maybe he bonded with an Odium spren in a way similar to the Nahel bond, whether intentional or not, and it is trying to control his thoughts and actions similar to the Parshendi, but his will is strong enough that he is fighting it. I like the theory, and the WoB definitely suggests there's something to it. But some of the points you listed make me question. First, the "Taln's" blade. We've been shown that Shardblades always vanish when dropped, unless specifically willed not to. But Honorblades stay when dropped unless willed to vanish (I think). If what we originally saw was a Shardblade, it wouldn't have stayed there for somebody to take and bond. I don't think you CAN bond somebody else's blade without them relinquishing it first. So to me this seems like what we originally saw had to have been an Honorblade for it to not vanish. I personally don't have any theories about the blade changing or possible Taln swaps, but your theory about Nohadon seems as likely as any. Second, the comment about Lightweaving. Now, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as probably everybody else on these forums, but the Desolation we see the Heralds giving up the Oathpact was the last Desolation between then and our current point in the story. I don't remember what Taln said exactly, but he was sort of surprised by Shallan Lightweaving. He knew what it was but if I remember correctly, by what he said and his reaction there were no Lightweavers around that he had ever seen, commenting about how... someone who I forget the name of (Ishi?)... was successful in founding them. Now this strikes me as VERY odd. I highly doubt after the last Desolation, any of the Heralds went about recruiting or making the order of Lightweavers. Which means they were probably founded before the last Desolation, which is something Taln should know about isn't it? Which - unless I'm missing something - is some sort of evidence that the madman isn't Taln, but rather someone who is knowledgeable of the KR. I'm not sure, I'm probably missing something big here. Anyways, I like this theory. I'm not sure how I feel about Nohadon being Heraldic, but maybe he is just a KR, a Bondsmith like you said.

Oh man that's hilarious! I can only imagine the look of horror on people's faces. Personally I'm not a huge fan of this, I was also hoping for one continuous story arc. I don't know how many people would agree with this, but I found in Wheel of Time there was some awesome character development throughout the books without any time lapse. You got to see how the events of the previous book slightly changed a character, and each book would have direct impacts on their personality. I have a feeling that it's more to skip past some possibly boring times - well maybe not quite boring, but parts that don't really need to be told over a whole book. Like _Elena said, I with GRRM would have done this. I did NOT need to read A Feast for Crows, it was terribly boring being in the POV of a lot of non main characters and it seemed like not much happened.

I started to wonder about this myself before I got sort of halfway near the book. Then at one point Syl herself confirms it when talking to Kaladin. He says something along the lines of how he can't be a Radiant because he is broken, and Syl tells him that they all were. I was damnation near 100% sure that killing her mother broke her mind. She went mildly insane and repressed those memories so she could function normally. But reading your comment makes me think. She killer her mother with Pattern, so when and how did Pattern first get drawn to her? I'm thinking that Spren are attracted to the people who think or act out one or more of the ideals, but can only bond one of them if they have those "mental cracks".

I know, and it's definitely the obvious answer. I just feel that when Kalak was talking about the Thunderclasts and the dead and dying men on the battlefield, he would have mentioned something in passing about men fighting other humanoids, if it had happened. Obviously Brandon wouldn't give away such a crucial plot point in the prologue of the first book but still, I have a gut feeling that the Parshendi weren't Voidbringers - at that time at least. I think it is the Odium spren that are the Voidbringers and they inhabit different things and instill their will in it. Case in point, in one of Dalinar's visions, he sees a spren in the waters of purelake go into the rock and make it come alive into a Thunderclast. I don't think they are dormant creatures hiding in the rocks waiting for something to come alive, the spren just animate regular stone into a Thunderclast. Something similar happens to the Parshendi. They originally just bonded spren in some way to change their forms and Odium saw how he could abuse this.

That's a pretty big question. Will he become part of the non-surgebinding Skybreakers or will be become an actual Skybreaker? Depending on which, that will severely change his actions. I doubt that the stone shamans made him truthless with the knowledge that surgebinders were around, and with the intent purpose of making him into a murder machine (then again we have no idea of what happened with that situation yet). If he becomes an actual KR Skybreaker he will no doubt go after King T. If he just joins Nalan he will undoubtedly go after the stone shamans (which seems the likely course) hoping to get retribution against them for his actions, hoping to absolve himself of the blame and guilt. I have a strong suspicion that like many of the KR, he will struggle with the values of his order before actually becoming a KR, like Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. He will use justice as an excuse to get revenge and to try to absolve himself, only to come to terms with what has happened and swear to uphold the law, possibly feeling it is his only way to truly pay for what he has done.

For some reason I have it in my head that the Parshendi fought alongside humans in the Desolations originally. It comes from the opening of WoK talking about how red blood and orange blood are mixed, and I'm pretty sure Parshendi blood is orange. We hear mention of the Heralds fighting Thunderclasts but not Parshendi or anything humanoid. Not much to go on really, but its what I think. I also am pretty convinced that the Alethi are either Voidbringers, or influenced by Odium. The Thrill definitely isn't natural, and its only purpose seems to give satisfaction for killing, driving people to kill often to seek the pleasure from the Thrill. It almost seems as if it was done to them intentionally just so they would never be able to unite or have times of peace, which is exactly what is needed to prepare for a Desolation. The more unprepared and divided humanity is, the better chance that the Desolation will be successful in destroying them. I'm not sure though if it's just the Alethi who feel the Thrill, or all humans on Roshar. Sorry this is a bit off topic but it seems to fit with talk of the Voidbringers!

Personally, I'm not convinced that he is actually a Skybreaker despite what is said. He has no spren that he's bonded with and I don't think even a Herald can just say "There, you're a surgebinder now" and grant powers. Unless..... OOOHH!!! Maybe, just maybe... Since it's been confirmed by Brandon that Nightblood is exactly the same as a shardblade, maybe it will be his spren! It has a consciousness and can speak directly into his mind like other bonded spren, so maybe in this world he will be able to de-materialize Nightblood and re-form it at will as well. Anyways, I'm thinking he'll go directly to Shinovar after chatting with Darkness for a while. He'll most definitely try to go after King T at some point. He was so angry at the people he was killing for not being strong enough to defeat him, but now he has the capability of going after the person directly responsible for him killing everybody.

I'm sure a lot of people are going to disagree and I haven't finished the book yet... but I'm pretty sure that the NIghtwatcher is Cultivation. The way Lift's spren talks about the Nightwatcher like it is his mother or something, and you know.. Cultivation, a spren who is all about plants and growing.

Oh, well that clears things up pretty nicely! Thanks for that, I couldn't continue reading until I knew!