Aether

Buy. This would be interesting

There will be at least one cosmere novella released next year.

Sell, because there is no way Words of Radiance will be done by then.

 

Wit will have a verbal three-way sparring match with Jasnah and Shallan in WoR. And it will be epic.

I am interested in launching a larger discussion on the epigraphs of the Way of Kings. There are several of them that I find have rather interesting and (I think) undiscovered implications (the exception, of course, being "the Letter", which has a radically different form than the others).

 

What I want to do is to make a collective attempt at milking them for what information they are worth - attempting to find previously undiscovered connections and titbits of information - instead of using them individually in scattered hypotheses.

 

The problem is that a normal thread would make it difficult to generally discuss interpretations and significances of them as they cover largely different subjects and themes. Some of them can be grouped together, sure, but any single thread generally discussing the epigraphs would quickly become cluttered and confounding.

 

I think a separate sub-forum would be just what is needed for making a general epigraph discussion possible. Each separate thread could either discuss a single Death Chant or a single excerpt from Jasnah's Notebook; or discuss a group of them which seem to be linked together. This could be done in the normal Stormlight Archive forum, but I think it would be better to group epigraph threads together in a separate forum to avoid completely overtaking the forum-box and thus pushing down all other discussions.

FYI, Life.  It is generally preferred to use the edit function on your previous post if is related material and there has not been an intervening post.  The moderators tend to discourage double-posting.

I think there is an exception to be made for his own introduction thread xD. But yeah, edit the old one instead of double-posting. The exception is if a reasonable amount of time has passed and you now have new information or a new idea. Just be careful not to "necro" the thread, id est reviving a long, long dead thread. Though that is fine too if it was an interesting discussion and that new information has now surfaced that would be useful to the thread.

Lurking is cool. Lurking with a Blackbird-avatar is cooler.

 

Welcome!

Sorry for the essay. Hmmm... I wonder if I should add a bibliography.......

Please do! It is always best to be thorough.

I agree with the last part. I think that part of the bargain about making humanity was to create something that had direct ties to both Shards. I'm actually curious if someone from, for example Roshar, would have had as easy a time picking up both Shards as Sazed did.

I do not think so. WoB state that Leras and Ati couldn't have taken up each others powers because they were fully formed by their individual Shards intent at that point. Sazed could pick up and control them both because:

1. He wasn't formed by either intent (irrelevant of being part ruin and preservation), and
2. Because being of one mind, he could pick up both powers and keep them separate in his mind.
3. If it had to be Sazed for some reason, I think it has more to do with him as an individual and his personality than him being from Scadrial.

I do not see any reason why someone outside of Scadrial couldn't have picked up the powers, given they met some other hypothetical criteria than just "being part ruin and preservation". It should also be of note that Brandon has indicated that Hoid has no "interest" in picking up a Shard, sort of implying that he could have had he wanted to. (Though sure, he would be part Adonalsium, so he might meet the suggested prerequisite anyway)

It should also be noted that we know from the Eshonai chapter of WoR that

This would suggest that there is a net gain of mass to counteract the erosion, thanks to the Crem - at the very least this far east - though it might build really slowly since the area likely hasn't been inhabited for centuries, possibly millennia.

Well, unless Amaram is a dueler, it would be unlikely that Shallan would ever see Amaram's blade except in the event of some emergency situation.  As to the plate, I think it unlikely for Amaram to leave it in its previous appearance given the Alethi penchant for personalizing and adorning their plate.  As to Amaram and Kaladin and Amaram and Shallan, Amamram would have to be very careful about how he proceeded in both cases.  He would not be able to safely play Shallan against Kaladin since the premise fo Amaram having the plate and blade is that Amaram killed the shardbearer.  Amaram's possession of the plate and blade and the fact that Kaladin is still alive would belie any insinuation against Kaladin to Shallan regarding Helaran.

Lol. I find it amusing that we somehow completely missed the point that Kaladin was supposed to have run away while Amaram was the one who was supposed to have killed Nan Heleran the enemy Shardbearer.

Pardon me for being late, but happy birthday, Peter (slightly retroactively)!

 

How long do we traditionally stay with these names?

It could be assumed that whatever triggered the resurgence of Surgebinding would have happened when they were first exploring the Shattered Plains, which is around the time that the Death Chants started as well. This again would presumably have been some time before the assassination of Gavilar, leaving Jasnah a reasonable amount of time to attract a Spren.

House Davar was a noble house of enough repute and influence that the Ghostbloods felt that Shallans father could claim the throne. I've seen stranger theories than the possibility that House Davar had been in possession of a set of Shards that were lost with Nan-Heleran. If Shallan felt the Shards were inconsequential compared to the loss of her brother she may not have even considered them. It may not be likely, but I feel it's at least as likely as the Shin wearing Shardplate for farming.

Except that Shardplate used for farming is just plainly more awesomer and thus presumably more likely (well, not really). But I've been reduced to making this my main defending point now in several threads, so time for me to shut up until I can actually start contributing properly again.

 

EDIT: Added the part in bold formatting.

Honor has triggered the infodump safety protocol

Funniest line in this thread.

 

I think we know two of the oaths.  "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" and "I will remember those who have been forgotten."  So, one group could abandon the weak while another group might have run around destroying memorials and the like.  I wonder what the others might have done. 

Wait, whence did we get this second one`?

 

Remember the ardents who were studying spren?  They talked about whether or not people had tried eating in Shadesmar.  I think that at least some of the soulcasters amongst the ardents are doing so through Shadesmar. 

 

If surgebinding and soulcasting are the same, are the ardents hiding surgebinders amongst their ranks?

Geranid and Ashin didn't really give the impression that the ardents are able to visit Shadesmar nowadays. With Spanreeds, it would be fairly simple to just ask some ardents who's been there, yet Ashin was intending to "read" about it. Presumably, the ardents are aware of the existence of the Three Realms (or at the very least the Physical and Cognitive one=, but have lost the knowledge on how to get there.

 

Bear in mind we have not seen any definite examples of someone using a soulcaster in the TWoK.

 

There are three characters we see soulcasting:

 

Jasnah - does not even have a soulcaster.

Shallan - Does not use a soulcaster

Random interlude guy - soulcasts a wall to smoke (seems to have a single use soulcaster)

 

We only have word of mouth from Jasnah & Shallan and Kabsal regarding the action of soulcasting with Fabrials.

 

I suspect that we have to differenciate modern Fabrials (which include single function soulcasters) from ancient artifacts (Plate, Blade, universal soulcasters).

 

We know that Plate and Blade do not operate in the same way as modern fabrials. I feel that the inevitable logic is that 'ancient' soulcasters have more in common with plate/blade than they do with fabrials. 

Wait, what random interlude dude? In tWoK? Or are you referring to a Words of Radiance Interlude? WHERE????

 

 

Also, as has been hinted at, but not stated directly, it is a possibility that there is actually two different kinds of fabrials - one necessitating the capture of a Spren (modern fabrials would fall into this category) and one of unknown origin (Shards and probably Soulcasters would fall into this category). The commonality between these two is that both are heavily invested objects that are able to mimic the abilities of Surgebinding, the difference being the source of this investiture.

 

This could potentially explain why (presumably) only Radiants/Surgebinders had access to fabrials prior to the Recreance, since the modern way of making fabrials by capturing Spren potentially wasn't know back then, and that only people able to access Investiture could use an power the ancient type of fabrials to full extent.

 

 

EDIT: exchanged "from where" with "whence" because the latter is more awesomer.

I'll agree that it isn't as likely that Amaram will out Kaladin as the man who killed Shallans brother, but it wouldn't necessarily stop Shallan from telling Kaladin that she hated Amaram for killing her brother if indeed he was the Shardbearer and Shallan recognizes the Shards.

Just popping by for a quick note: It is very unlikely that Shallan will recognize the Shards, as she would most likely be ignorant of the fact that Heleran was in possession of them if he was indeed the Veden Shardbearer. Finding the Soulcaster was already a huge surprise and if her brothers are unaware of Shallan's own Shardblade (at least that's the impression I got from their conversations through Spanreed and Nan Balat's chapter), how would they know about these Shards, much less being able to recognize them on sight?

As they approached, she was surprised by the variety in their appearance. Other Shin she’d seen had worn basic brown robes or other worker’s clothing. At the front of this group, however, was a man in what must be Shin finery: a bright, multicolored cloak that completely enveloped him, tied closed at the front. It trailed down on either side of his horse, drooping almost to the ground. Only his head was exposed.

What would he be covering ?

Some Shardplate perhaps ?

Good catch. But allowing myself to reiterate, I still find it unlikely, I just cannot (nor will not) rule it out. 'Twould be kind of awesome if it turned out to be at least partially true.

Ahhh thank you guys for the upvote!!!!! I've never got so many… =)

@Aether Yeah I'm the botanicaxu on tumblr and have just arrived here as a newbie. Thanks for the upvote!!!

I might not have been very eloquent, but I was severely impressed by your art. Up-voting your posts on this thread is just an easy way of showing my appreciation. Keep up the good work !

No Highstorms in Shinovar, no Stormlight unless they get it from the border.

Highstorms are presumably not the only form of Investiture on Roshar.

I don't think anything can measure up to tWoK. I stumbled upon it mostly by accident and was just completely knocked back (quite literally. I didn't get up from the sofa for a whole day) by the depth, the learning curve, the world of Roshar and the characters. Sanderson has come a long way since Mistborn, and those books were already very good.

 

You should try Elantris and Warbreaker at some point too. I find those two to be a bit more... hmm... light than his other books, but they're still worth the read (like everyone else, including me, you'll fall head over heels in love with Lightsong from Warbreaker). Also, it gives you more information and background-story of the "meta-story" that is the Cosmere.

Just to clarify my position ons this, I do not really support the hypotheses I'm defending here, just  pointing out the strengths, weaknesses and possible reasoning behind them. I'd be more inclined to actually support an idea akin to what Gloom suggests in the previous post.

 

But Gloom, you sure? It seems reasonable to suggest that there might not have been any Surgebinders anywhere prior to Gavilar's exploration of the Shattered Plains, but no Investiture at all?

To suggest that the Shards are being used for farming is far from plausible. For one, every field has stones in it. I get that their is soil in Shinovar, but soil contains stones. Cutting stone is taboo. Shardplate requires stormlight, and stormlight is holy. Using stormlight for something as inane as farming would likely be considered sacrilegious. It isn't like they can't farm without the Shards. Religious governments are almost always about maintaining the status quot. So progress usually isn't high on the agenda.

Actually, if there is one idea here that isn't completely ludicrous, it is the idea that they use Shardplates (and not Blades) for farming. It is a long shot for which we do not have much info, but to dismiss it on the count that they consider Stormlight holy is rather unfair. Remember that farming is considered a holy task, and use of Stormlight in such a holy pursuit would fit. IIRC, Szeth didn't seem to find the use of Stormlight in itself profane, but the use of it for such mundane and trivial tasks such as lighting and decoration (plus his own use for lashings).

 

Now, again, plausible, not likely. But we have been reduced to spit-balling here.

What about the Growth surge? Besides, a culture based around the idea of "adding" by using a neutral-output power would actually work - the mass has to remain the same, but the value doesn't. Turn the air into food to feed hungry children, and that seems pretty close to "adding" to me. Perhaps the nature of the culture is that the idea of truly creating more than you take to create it with is some sort of unreachable ideal, kind of like the way it is literally impossible to live without sin in Christianity - but people try anyway.

I didn't think of the Growth surge (though I don't think the "[Loving, ]Healing" would fit Shinovar within Natans' hypothesis. And good points on "adding". But there is still the problem of the lack of Highstorms in Shinovar (even though I myself have argued that this might at best only present a logistical challenge).

Soulcast change, but to a common person, change something out of thin air, looks very close to add something out of nothing. Like i said this could be a case of decline of knowledge, I don't know yet after a ready WOR how knows maybe I will have enough data =)

I might be more inclined to find it plausible presented as this. I still have my doubts, though. Something is going on in Shinovar - of that I am sure - but I don't think it is quite so straightforward for the various reasons presented above,

 

And one upvote for the Fullmetal reference, boy a like this one.

And an upvote for the fellow FMA fan too!

Wait, we are being serious here?

Serious to the point of inanity - is it not obvious?

Another thing being HONEST are a virtue associeted with one of the orders that can soulcast. The title the one that add is suspicius to me. Why the one that add? Maybe a reference to the obvius nature of the soulcaster, and before every one begin, I'm not saying that today they can soulcast, but, is possible that the term originate from there (Sanderson love play with the theme of decline of knowledge)

 

Actually, Soulcasting has nothing to do with adding, but with changing. "To obtain something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's First Law of Equivalent Exchange". From Fullmetal Alchemist, but works here too, since Soulcasting is about changing a quantity of something of something into something else, but of equal mass (though not necessarily equal volume). Sanderson do like to play with concepts, but I doubt he would twist meanings like what you have to do to derive "he who adds" from Soulcasting.

 

I have a pet theory that which one of the ten silver kingdom are the emboidement of one divine aspect. Alenthi = Honor, Shinovar = Honest, Reshi = Wise, careful, etc. But I'm waiting to futher information that prove my point, because I think that i passed my limit of "no fundamented theories"  this year.

Now, this is an interesting thought, especially since the Silver Kingdoms were supposed to be set up in a way that gave different responsibilities of governing to different kingdoms. The old Alethela, for example, was the one responsible for defending the Realm, and others would be responsible for courts of law, scholarship, trade (or something) etc.

 

Alethela would be "[Leading, ]Protecting" in your scenario, btw, not "Honour". They would all be different aspects of Honour. Shinkaknish (the equivalent of Shinovar during the Silver Kingdoms Epoch) could very well have been representing "[Creative, ]Honest[y]", but it is a bit contrived to attribute Soulcasting to the farmers of Shinovar (as stated above) because of this.

Challenge accepted let me try.

 

1- The Shin don't use metal that was mined.

2- They allways tell the true, (see that trading exchange was a example).

3- The Shin have a pretty cool fight style that focus in grab maneuvers

 

1- If they don't mine how they obtain metal to supply a whole society? Well, the symbol head spreens(cryptics) are sprens associated with soulcasting.

2- They Allwayssssssssss, tell the true =) Do the math  the cryptics bond when strong trues are told

3- Why have a figthing style that focus in grab maneuvers? Well that is handy when you need touch something to soulcast. (Jasnah ligthning trick use to much stormlight and, I believe, is something unique to her order) 

 

 

Just saying =)

 

And one upvote to Bloodfalcon for the mental exercise challenge =)

Kudos for taking the challenge, but I'm not sure this is very accurate information.

 

It is correct that they do not (or at least prefer not to) use mined from stone, but prefer to use metal that was Soulcast from offals. They do not seem able to do this themselves, however, since Thresh (the Shin from the interlude) clearly has to trade with a foreigner to get it.

 

And we have no indication that they always tells the truth, but merely that they respect people that are honest. They might generally prefer to always or at least mostly tell the truth, but it seems ludicrous to extrapolate a culture wide inability to tell a lie from the Rysn-chapter.

 

And as other people have already indicated, there are no Highstorms in Shinovar, because the area is shielded by an high and enclosing mountain range (the Misted Mountains, lol). They might of course get Stormlight from outside of the area, but then there is the fact that Rysn do not see Spren anywhere - it does indeed seem like there are no Spren at all in Shinovar.

 

So I think we can quite assuredly debunk the theory that they bond with Cryptics or any other type of Spren (at least Shin confined to Shinovar), and thus the theory that Szeth's place as a Truthless results from a failed bonding process with this (or any) type of Spren.

WOAH! This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules?? Your fan-art... I think I'll just upvote all of your post on this thread now....

 

 

I mean, seriously?!