Aether

Ok. Flexing my muscles a bit here. 'Tis been a long time, so bear with me as I might not be completely up to speed, nor will I remember all my sources, but there is a few things I'd like to point out. Do point out if and when I get something wrong.

On 28.7.2017 at 3:08 AM, Extesian said:

On Elantrians, we know they are not Cognitive Shadows as they never ‘died’. I did a post on this a while back, I believe the mechanics are that they are normal magic users, but infused with investiture to the point of effectively coming savants (many caveats on that due to the rubbery definition of savant). As Calderis said, I think the appropriate analogy is to someone with the fifth heightening who is not a Returned (ie susebron rather than vasher). I think you and Maelstrom have it right, that basically when Elantrians use aons they are not actually channeling the investiture through their bodies in the way an allomancer does when burning metal. The super boost caused by the Elantris aon (when functioning) is designed to enhance their ability to pull more of the Dor in at once, but it seems like the kinetic investiture is not actually running through them. Either way though, as they’re not cognitive shadows, the point is somewhat moot.

On the issue of why one Breath a week (technically it’s the eighth day  they die) that’s exactly part of why I think this is a very deliberate choice by Endowment. If they needed investiture constantly, in small trickles, the first Returned would have died immediately. It needed to be a week to give them time to convince others to give Breath. The number of days could be a Nalthis number thing, but I think it’s more just a good balance of not too short and not too long, as hwiles said, it’s a motivating factor to give away the Breath eventually.

In the end I’m pretty confident that the design of all of this is about creating an ecosystem of ‘giving’ on Nalthis. The main question I haven’t satisfied myself with is whether that’s the only reason why Returned need regular investiture, or whether all Cognitive Shadows do and Endowment’s Intent is simply what defines the specifics.

I do think you guys are onto something here. The Returned's vampiric tendencies is likely heavily tied to Endowment as a shard more so than to the more general workings of the Realmatics behind Cognitive Shadows. Some others have pointed out that there is one major difference between Returned and (most) other Cognitive Shadows that we've seen, and that is that they are the only ones who've got their own physical bodies, so there is still room for their Investiture Drain to be more of a general thing rather than a quirk of Endowment, but we have too small of a sample pool to answer this in any definite way, IMO.

We have seen at least two - possibly three - other examples of cognitive shadows stitched to a physical body, and that is that of Kelsier from BotM, the Heralds and possibly Szeth. Kelsier (or whatever is going on there) is likely stitched to a body by Hemalurgy - and Hemalurgy comes with its own pile of weird interactions and rules, so nothing definite from that example. The Heralds seem to be something of a whole other calibre than even Returned, and even if not, there is likely a bunch of rules and stipulations that come from the Oathpact, so Heralds know how that is supposed to work (pardon the awkward and terrible pun).

On 28.7.2017 at 10:12 PM, Calderis said:

Without the Honorblades, the Heralds have lost their surgebinding based abilities. Thus they aren't able to invest Stormlight. Other than Nale, they've gone 4500 Rosharan years without that ability so they don't seem to need it. 

This is likely just plain wrong. Just because they do not have their Surgebinding abilities without their Honourblades does not mean that they cannot use or wield Investiture - even if they do not have a direct "funnel" for using Stormlight specifically. There are jailbreaks to the different forms of Investiture - plenty of WoBs that confirm that. The mere presence of Vasher on Roshar confirms this, so I'm not going to bother hunting those WoBs down.

Point is, Brandon has hinted at the Heralds having other abilities, and the way he's worded it in the past seem to imply more than just super-human levels of strength, dexterity and such. I find it likely that they have powers that require Investiture, and given their strong bond with Honour (at least in the past), they can probably wield Stormlight directly. And if not, there are ways to get around that, as previously stated.

Also, just because we haven't seem them use these powers during the few relatively short interactions we've had with them in the books, doesn't mean that they do not have them or cannot currently use them.

On 28.7.2017 at 10:12 PM, Calderis said:

The Heralds are bound to the Rosharan system and spent their time between desolations being tortured. They didn't have time to study the rules of the Cosmere like Vasher did. If they have a requirement, they figured out a way to obtain Stormlight through other means in an unbelievably fast timeframe after giving up their Honorblades, with no apparent casualties to even learn it was needed in the first place. 

We have no idea how old the Heralds are and how long the conflict on Roshar has been in play. Even if they wouldn't have had time to study during the Desolation, that does by necessity mean that they haven't had time to study it before. And they seem to have known Tanavast personally (either from before his ascension or in the beginning of his godhood), so who knows what they may or may not have been told directly.

On 28.7.2017 at 10:23 PM, Calderis said:

Well I think we've already seen it. 

Taln catching a dart midair that he could barely have seen coming seems to be fairly super human. And that is after separation from the Honorblade. 

That might not require use of Investiture directly, though. Consider the Elantrians and anyone holding a lot of Investiture (Stormlight in particular), really. Super-charged human abilities is likely just an off-shoot of being a heavily invested being, either by having much more of it as a part of your very being (such as with the Elantrians) or by holding it temporarily (such as with anyone holding Breaths or Stormlight or channeling the Dor with your fists as that weird Kong-Fu trader did in Elantris).

On 6.8.2017 at 0:42 AM, FiveLate said:

I am not sure I can agree with this completely.  Yes the Heralds were created through the Oathpact with Honor, but that might not have been in the Rosharan system of magic.

Do we have direct confirmation of the Heralds being created as a part of the Oathpact? And even if so, does that mean that they were created as sentient beings at that very moment or that they were just elevated to demi-gods from "normal" humans at that point?

We seem to be in agreement about the point your trying to make, but I think you have reasoning wrong, here.

1 minute ago, Kurkistan said:

Welcome back Aether! Sorry that we've betrayed you but not keeping the flame burning quite as bright. :\

I don't feel betrayed, I was just surprised to dive into the forums properly for the first time in years and find that the landscape had changed drastically.

Currently reading your updated Time Bubble post. Whether you will continue to churn out new material or not, at least your previous work is still pretty amazing.

1 minute ago, Kurkistan said:

I've been less active as of late (read: for a few years), for which I blame employment. Don't have quite the focus/energy to pump out book-length theory posts and/or engage in such conversations when I'm using the same brain-parts to make a living.

May I ask what you do for a living? I've wondered that for years (well, way back when, at least), but never thought to ask.

1 minute ago, Kurkistan said:

Oathvember

So that nomenclature is now a thing. That word irks me. It looks horrible. Not like Squirearchy, which looks amazing.

17 minutes ago, Extesian said:

As someone who exclusively uses the theorizing forums (plus a bit of meme and Sanderfan funnies) I can say that traffic has decreased a lot in 7 months, but the post count from the old guard has gone down heaps since Discord. I agree it's a net positive but the theorizing forums sure are lacking the expertise they had. I mean most newer members consider me a resource and I've only been here half a year. Which is nice, but not as nice as when the Weirys, Kurks and so on are actively contributing. Come at me Oathvember! 

Some of the older mastodons are just impossible to replace. Kurk in particular has written the equivalent of books in theorising and mapping of Realmatics in particular. A bit messy work, true, but solid beyond compare.

Some of the newer material I am reading now also seem to lack a bit of rigour, but that might be more about my own high standards twisted even higher by my choice of education.

But, again, all of this will likely change come November, possibly even earlier, given how many sample chapters we will be given this time.

4 minutes ago, Claincy said:

Weiry's still around, don't know how active he is in theorising at the moment. I've barely touched those parts of the forum in years *shrugs*.

Oh, hi Claincy ! Good to see a familiar face (well, familiar pixels) !

The forums die down a bit between major publications, and most of us specialise in certain series (except for Kurk, of course), so I suppose It would be difficult to keep track of even major posters if you don't frequent the same fora?

How has the Discord channel worked out, btw? Has it hampered this site in any way?

15 minutes ago, Extesian said:

And I agree, variety is everything. But for classic beauty, it's hard to go too far past the Norwegian fjords. Cruising them is one of my greatest scenic travel experiences

The fjords really are majestic, I agree. But I am a bigger fan of the mountains. And the great, uh, plains(?) in Hardanger. Almost has a Scottish moors feel to them, but with much more colour.
There is a famous painting that really encapsulates the beauty of the mountains. It's "Fra Stalheim" by Johan Christian Dahl, though you cannot really get the proper feeling from it on a computer screen. That thing is MASSIVE, almost two meters in height and two-and-a-half in length. The dude even painted lemmings into the foreground. Lemmings !

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Welcome back, I've seen posts from you from before I joined Yeah most of the old lot have been really inactive, they're mostly on Discord. Kurkistan's theorizing hasn't been active though he did update his epic time bubble thread. But they assure us that all will be back to normal once Oathbringer is out. Something I can't wait for! I want to be part of the amazing discovery threads I've seen from before I joined 7 months ago  

On other notes I'm glad you've recovered and I'm glad you're living in the world's prettiest country!

There's a Discord channel? Is it open for whomever?

The first few months after a major release is always super exciting. Even during these three years away, I have dipped into the fora to take a look at what people are writing about around every Cosmere release. You absolutely have something to look forward to!

And thanks, and thanks ! I wouldn't say the prettiest, as variation is the soul of beauty, and there are many other different yet also beautiful countries. But it is nice here =D

Just now, Flash said:

I haven't seen them at all. The most prodigious posters are the one who connects, extesian, and calderis. 

I figure most of the older guys will come back when Oathbringer comes out.

Well, I disappeared, so not that surprising others might have as well. I will take a look at what those three posts, will be fun to dive into what sort of theories are tossed around currently.

8 minutes ago, Flash said:

Have fun competing with Extesian and Calderis.

Who? Gods, what happened with the old lot? Is Weirywriter still active? I know Kurkistan has been posting, but how active is he at theorising?

I am cheating a bit here, because as might be evident from my 1'700+ posts, I am by no means a newcomer to the 17th Shard.

I have, however been inactive for more than three years. A recent reread of several Cosmere books have prompted me to return to the forums, however, and while I likely will not dive head first into my old pattern of obsessive and compulsive posting, I wish to make a bid for my old "position" as one of the theorising mastodons come the release of Oathbringer. I probably won't be focused around Lists(tm), though.

So, what has happened in my life during the three last years?

• Recovered from severe depressions. My own experiences has really made me respect Brandon even more for how he portrayed Kaladin.
• Switched Majors (and Minors) from Law to Philosophy. I wrote my Bachelor's Thesis about epistemological resources in friendships (I specialise in Social Epistemology).
• Moved around a lot (still based in Norway for the time being, however).
• Accidentally killed a cat (sorry, @Kurkistan). It ran in front of my while I was bicycling.

21 hours ago, FiveLate said:

Mine isn't in a Cosmere book, the Twist at the end of Perfect State was Perfect.

Agreed. That twist came out of nowhere (well, not really, it was well foreshadowed looking back at it) and fits brilliantly into the major theme of "real" vs "fake" of the novella.

Another one will have to be the one at the end of the Way of Kings:

It looks like Swimmingly is soon going to catch up to Peter. And probably eventually Brandon. I'm really not sure how I feel about this.

I must admit that I am somewhat annoyed by it. I find Swimmingly to be hysterically funny quite often, and he does create interesting Threads/posts from time to time, but overall (and correct me if I am wrong), it is the sheer number of snarky/somewhat funny posts that makes up most of his Reputation Points. While there is definitely room for every flavour of contributors/posts on this forum, I feel like users such as Kurkistan (for his in-depth discussions and incessant WoB tracking), Awesomeness Summoned (User Profile Icons) and FeatherWriter (honestly, just the crazy Renarin essays would do) would be more deserving of the top position(s).

I don't get it. The Lashings perspectives are confusing. Were the trees the right way up or was the bird actually falling?

 

Edit: Wait. Kiwi bird, not kiwi fruit right?  So it couldn't fly and those are some seriously weird trees then? 

He is nailing the trees to the side of a mountain. The flightless Kiwi basically commits suicide to experience flight just one time. Which is why I am crying right now.

In terms of ancestry I am half Indian and half Russian, but i currently reside in Sydney, Australia.

Since my quest to find a funny picture by googling "half Rndian, half Russian", I just linked you to a random Wikipedia article.

Think about this,

Shallan fell for a monk once, what if it was zahel???

Creepy.

I am quite confident she was referring to Kabsal here.

• Thyrllann², (Another Kiwi)

Forgive the double-post (and the fact that I'm commenting on my own Easter-Egg), but that video is so bloody sad! Gets me every time.

Another Kiwi, and this guy ^^^^^ has it right - we're a country of 4.5 million, we really don't need any subsections

I am surprised to learn that Norway has a bigger population than New Zealand.

And I do not think that I'll make any particular sub-divisions. The possible exceptions are Great Britain if they ever get around to demand it, and the US which is definitely pushing the boundaries of legibility.

I live in the South West of France, in the Dordogne. But I'm English! Aha!

Then, what would you like me to put you up as? Haha!

Oregon. Thanks to that RP thread, I know that.

Huh?

There seems to be almost as many Aussies and New Zealanders around as Americans. 

Really? You're still twelve to sixty-seven according to my List. You might both be over-represented as compared with the rest of the world, but the US is still makes up by FAR the biggest fan-base.

I body resides in utah, my mind resides wherever it feels like.

You should definitely have that checked out! According to WebMD's Symptoms checker, unless you're victim of alcohol withdrawal or a side effect from some medication, you're likely suffering from an Anxiety disorder or Schizophrenia. Or you're high on something. Or just a smart-mouth.

Anyway, if you're curious, the symptoms I checked were: Poor concentration, Hallucinations, feeling of being detached from reality, easily distracted, disoriented, delusions and confusion.

Australia - specifically Adelaide. o/ fellow Aussies

Long Island (NY) here

Vu!

The people who down-vote Stick references really do have sticks up their lower-part-of-their-bodies-that-are-their-backs.

Okay, I know this doesn't even sound like me, but if we're talking about cute interactions with Hoid, we should definitely put Renarin in there. "Those who ‘deserve’ my mockery are those who can benefit from it, Brightlord Dalinar. That one is less fragile than you think him”?? "Nothing ridiculous"?? Renarin and Hoid cutes are the best cutes.

I am looking forward to the day you start a Renarin shipping Thread in order to map and plot all possible (and quite the number of impossible) Renarin-ships.

EDIT: Anyone else than me who wants to read a Jenet/Renarin ship just to see how that would / would not work?

Unless it's not really the shards themselves that give humanity their souls. If humanity's souls are fragments of Adonalsium as a whole...

Wait... O_O

Ohh... My... God... I know what the Shattering of Adonalsium truly is/was.

Woah! This suddenly got Dark Souls deep!

There was a topic name somewhere on the forums that contained his name that almost made me do a spit-take, but it wasn't about him.

(Well, who I strongly suspect to be the Recipient of the First Letter, at least.)

I suppose it has become censored since then? I would prefer to ask before I dive hours deep into the archives to hunt for this name.

Storming troll!