Greywatch

I really like what Brandon said about how he started to treat it differently recently:

Yeah, that makes total sense. For future editing purposes, there is a quote button you can use - in order from left to right, it's "bold", "italics", "underline", "link", "quote"! You can paste whatever text you want into the box. The only downside is that it doesn't automatically notify the person you're quoting, so you could @ them if you wanted to.

I've been enjoying the time skip very much - it feels fresh and exciting, like really catching up with these characters, learning something new about them again. It's great for me, because whatever was skipped, no matter how cool it sounds, is what Brandon decided was less exciting than whatever happens in the rest of the book. I'm psyched!

Abuse is an action.

@Asrael If you want to move to PMs, that's acceptable as well. I'm a Christian, too, and my reaction comes from a long history of my religion being used to shelter and protect abusers instead of the abused. That's a part of its past that I have to reckon with. I also have worked in fields where contact with abused people was the main focus. What Gavilar did wasn't a red flag or an indication that he wasn't as good as people thought; the way he treated Navani was the proof of bad behaviour. It was in itself part of the abuse. There may be context yet to come, but my point is that context is never going to make it not as bad. Asking for delayed judgment because context might redeem him is apologia.

I am extremely comfortable in saying things like that about an abuser, yeah.

The point of it being abusive is that there is no "why" good enough. Nothing will exonerate his character.

I'm a little surprised at the reactions calling Gavilar a jerk or a bully. What he's doing qualifies as abuse. This isn't me being hyperbolic - this is the behaviour to look out for. To have it reduced to "he was mean to his wife" don't even come close to what his behaviour actually is, no matter what reasons he has for it. Every defense of "there may have been a reason" implies that there could possibly be a reason that it's defensible - it's abuse apologia.

@Karger and @GriffinMaze I don't think anything is wrong yet, but it feels like the temperature of the room is heating up a little bit - it's for fun! Let's remember to be civil and try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. I can see where Rainier is getting at with the basis of their theory, but Karger is also valid in the idea that true information about Shallan might be intentionally being presented to us from external characters. It's too soon to tell what's going to happen in canon, so at this point, there's no use in calling other people factually wrong. When it comes to the mystery of Shallan's mental state, lots hasn't been confirmed for the readers yet.

@Pathfinder Sure, can do. My post was not claiming a side for you, only explaining how I interpreted the quote you linked, in light of some people saying that Shallan is as bad or worse than she was in Oathbringer.

I was annoyed, because to caution me and tell me that the words I'm using could mean I'm saying something that I don't mean to say, is a frustrating thing to hear after a post. I chose the words I meant to say.

Yes, I use words, to try and convey certain ideas, without being specific as to every single way they could be misinterpreted.

Oh, how many have you read?

@Pathfinder I really like that source/information, as it really shows us that Veil and Radiant aren't inherently threatening to Shallan, and that it's not necessarily a problem for one of them to be more "dominant" than she is. It's essentially just a summary, but there's a lot there that I think is not obvious to us who don't already have education about real DID. I guess we'll have to see how stable the three of them really are, but it's really encouraging to see that stability might actually be the end goal. As for why Veil and Radiant exist in the first place... I mean the Lightweaving has a little to do with how Shallan did it, but the reason they exist is Shallan's past trauma. No headway is going to be made with Shallan's alters without addressing the trauma as the root cause.

What's canon got to do with shipping?

I get Laral's reasons, but understanding why doesn't make me like her any better. I just do not like her very much, and just... don't care when she's on screen. I'm not sure what would have to change to make me like her better, but it would have to be a lot.

Gavilar - Abuser. Automatically the top slot. Amaram - Evil, and slimy enough to hide it, pretending he's nice and shiny. Awful man. Sadeas - Bad. Bad man. Moash - Did some very bad things for bad reasons. But I get it.

Yes, I consider the conversations about what relationship is more valid in canon as a completely separate animal from the actual shipping activities. Shipping itself is not an argument.

@agrabes Sure, it's all taste and our varying levels of it. However the "But they're not gay!" response is something that misses the mark, and it stalls conversation. It rings true for realmatic theorizers, and rings... completely hollow for people like me. I would definitely posit one of the reasons shippers don't feel welcome or respected here is the basic response of nitpicking the reasons for ships as if they were theories. Ships aren't theories, they're playgrounds, and if someone doesn't want to play, that shines through. When someone suggests a ship that I've never heard before, the sexuality doesn't come into it. If someone is suggesting a ship, the sexuality is a given. I'm being asked to buy into the scenario, and if my response is a list of problems with the scenario before we even get to play with it, it's no longer fun and interesting. Believe me, the community of people who ship feel as much boredom and contempt about realmatic theorizing as some people here feel about shipping.

This is not true. 17th Shard is not great at shipping, but there are plenty of other cosmere fan communities who do it and do it well.

I would push back on this, and I don't think there's any kind of reason required. As a shipper, I am not bound or limited by what Brandon decides will happen. Knowing that Kaladin/Adolin is likely not to ever happen in canon doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts on what a good ship they are. If you're not interested in gay ships, you're not interested - but justification on their sexual orientation is not a requirement, and your idea that it has to be part of the conversation is genuinely puzzling. There's two responses to that: (1) there's no proof that they're not interested in men (to spell it out for those who need it: attraction to women doesn't equal lack of attraction to men) and (2) it actually doesn't matter to shippers whatsoever. Following up on what Feather said, yes absolutely. It's not a stretch because no shipping requires it. Canon doesn't limit the shipping possibilities, canon is a starting point. Shipping is an exploration of character. It's actually one of the the reasons that I find canon ships boring in comparison to non-canon ships, because the canon has taken all the mystery and fun out of the exploration. When I ship, I don't want the thinking about it to be done for me, I want to do it myself. Having it constantly dismissed here - in this thread, these forums - as just wanting to see them kissing is annoying, but comments like that also just miss the mark. Sure, kissing is part of it, but that's not even close to the entirety of the experience.

Big agree - I would love to see queer men be more visible in Brandon's works. Fingers crossed for someone at the protagonist level soon. I want this so much. It rings true for me; fingers crossed as we go forward.

It would be Prince Consort, actually.

Full romantic. Canon doesn't matter; it's shipping.

I think Kaladin and Shallan definitely do need supports, but I also think they are incapable of being that for each other. I'm assuming Kaladin will date other people, and that Shallan was not his one and only chance at happiness in romance. I expect Brandon will provide someone else, though not a main character on Shallan's level. (Who could reach the level of the main three? Oh, well.) Their differences in needs are incompatible, at least where we stand at the end of OB. What they need from their supports is the opposite of where they need to go. On the original question in the op, though, my main ship is Kadolin. Their relationship has one my favourite to watch develop over the three books, and am excited to see that continue.