Greywatch

Yeah, I've read the theory. Masking our flaws is something everyone does, and this is not convincing me that this is anything more than that. It's one interpretation of the text, but one I find flimsy.

One, that is not a thought she has about why she doesn't try it with Adolin, even though we can recognize it as true. Wasn't part of her thought process. Two, "cheerful scholar" is one interpretation of core Shallan, and it takes a lot of assumptions to say that she's putting on a false face when the text divides her only between her, and the two alters. The mask!Shallan theory takes a lot of suppositions, and I fundamentally disagree with almost all of them. There's not enough text or subtext to support the conclusion that Shallan has anything in between core personality and alter. There were no alters before OB, and before that, it's not a dissociative identity matter - it's a normal reaction to trauma and self-hatred. Everyone wants to put their best face forward, and Shallan does this with Adolin... at first. Then she slowly stops doing even that. At the end of OB, she didn't give up the personas, but she stopped needing them. She stopped feeling the need to create more. I see this as on the path towards reintegration. Shallan created a different background for Veil, which fell apart because Shallan realized that the majority of what she'd invented for Veil fell apart because she, Shallan, didn't have the life experience to make it actually real. Veil, who Shallan created because she felt like she wasn't good enough, also failed. Shallan and the two alters still exist, but in a different state than what they were throughout the book. In one book, Shallan felt inadequate, created personas to feel competent, one of the alters also fails, Shallan has her talk with Hoid and realizes that she herself has value, and though the two alters don't disappear, Shallan doesn't feel like those alters are superior to her core person anymore. Putting the alters aside, Shallan first needed to realize that she herself was valuable and worthy to be loved. You can see that moment as a joke, but it didn't seem written that way. That's certainly a take on it, but it didn't feel like a joke to me.

Yup, this is exactly it - it's subjective, and I find him interesting as is. Not everyone who likes Adolin wants him to have an edge or becoming grimdark to be interesting. Sometimes a character can just be a good person. Whether or not a reader finds him bland is purely taste. You apparently do - I don't. On the contrary, his character arc in the very first book was him doubting his father... a lot. It's pretty much the raison d'être of his character when we start the series. He frequently second-guesses Dalinar and brings up his doubts about Dalinar's motives and methods. Even after this character arc resolves after WoK, he definitely still disagrees with his father, even though he's now more willing to go along with him even though he might think another way might do better. In OB, we find out the extent to which Evi raised the boys and what impact she had on how Adolin and Renarin turned out. The reason Adolin thinks what Dalinar did at the Rift is was justified is because he was told that the Rifters killed Evi. Do I think he's going to completely turn on Dalinar if/when he finds out the truth? No, not completely. But it undermines Adolin's established character and Evi's to suggest that he'll be just fine to find out his father essentially murdered his mother, and not the Rifters.

Mary Sue is a garbage term. Continued insistence that Adolin is one (and insisting that it's unreasonable) because he has traits that predispose him to great emotional intelligence, kindness, compassion, and stability... Traits that have been built into his character for three books in a row without fail... That's called consistency. On the other hand, ignoring those traits when building a scenario about how Adolin would react to something is flawed reading. If we want to talk about something that I think Adolin actually would lose it about it would be him finding out the truth about Evi's death. Shallan being abused as a child and taking the steps to defend herself and her brothers? Not in the same class.

I never say bland - I said bland was what was being put on him, here in this thread. Somehow the traits of a good guy that I read in the books - kind, sympathetic, grounded - were not being taken into account in any of these scenarios. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

Shallan is not a sociopath for killing her parents. She was an abused child who didn't have options. That's the long and short of it, and the continued claim that Adolin would react negatively to it just because "it's a normal response" has no bearing on the reality of life is more varied than that. Even here in real life, there is not only one response to hearing the news. Freaking out on Shallan is not a response that everyone would have and definitely not Adolin's. Shallan, knowing her, might start off with "I killed my parents", Adolin, who loves her, cares about her, and at this point has a good grasp on her character, would probably not lose it on her, and upon finding out the circumstances of her abusive childhood, would be sympathetic, because he's a sympathetic person. A "normal, sane" person would ask their loved ones for background, the details, the why of it, and putting the extremely bland "nice guy" Adolin label on him ignores his actual canon characterization as kind, grounded, and sympathetic. "Nice guy" Adolin sure applies to the latter character traits, but those traits are somehow nowhere to be seen here.

I don't know how to fix quote boxes, sadly enough. But what is also canon is Odium being given an opening doesn't mean the Sadeas men aren't complicit - and they are. I agreed above that Odium was given an opening and that was a consequence - feel free to take another pass at my above post. But it's absolutely also canon that they have to agree. And they did agree.

I think that's giving away way too much of the Sadeas soldiers' autonomy to be valid, as every time we see people joining up with Odium, it's been a conscious choice. The only thing here is that we didn't see the moment of transformation for most of them - we mostly get Amaram as the mouth piece of the Sadeas army. We have to infer from there, and I'm inferring the way that follows the form of every other time people have chosen to let Odium work. A consequence of Adolin murdering Sadeas? Yeah, that's a given. The sole responsibility of Adolin's? No. Really important here is that it wasn't known that Adolin did it - in the absence of any evidence, the Sadeas house only assumed it was a Kholin. They were right, but if it hadn't, it's still canon they would've assumed it anyway. The Sadeas army let themselves be taken by anger at the Kholins, and they were taken away and then killed before Adolin even admits it to Dalinar. They let themselves be angry with no evidence, and they let themselves be taken by Odium. Kogiopsis had a great post within the last page about Shallan's arc being about self-compassion - I was mostly just summarizing her post, actually.

Definitely with Amaram, Amaram chose it, and implied very strongly with what Odium said to Dalinar and throughout that confrontation - Odium is really good at making it seem like the only thing to do, but it was still their choice. Much of Shallan's arc in Oathbringer was her coming to have compassion for herself - by the time the wedding happens, she's in a place where she is starting to accept and love herself. Just starting, mind, but it's not as grim as your interpretation. Also interesting of note - a big reason of why I don't believe Shallan putting her best foot forward with Adolin means it's a false mask is that every time she's wondered if she should make a persona for Adolin, she doesn't. She creates Veil, she creates Radiant, but tempted again and again and again to create a persona for Adolin, she doesn't. I don't think she lies to Adolin any more than most people who date someone they really like want the other person to see the best of them - which Shallan does - before they risk it and take the next step to be vulnerable - which Shallan does. We see that Shallan lies to Adolin less and less as the book goes on, which is a great sign for them. (Though the first few scenes I wasn't convinced by their cute scenes "they're lying to each other!" I cried to my book - and then I watched as their romantic arc closed with them being honest with each other, which is just good narrative follow through.)

Regret... But not disapproval. He's more upset that Adolin didn't tell him. Obviously disappointed that it will hurt the Coalition and their reputation, but while the first thing Dalinar asks if "why did you hide this from me", he doesn't say anything like "how could you do such a thing" or any variant. The text also condemns the Sadeas soldiers for allowing themselves to be used by Odium, so the very text states it's not only on Adolin's shoulders. People are responsible for their reactions, and saying that this is only Adolin's consequence also is not quite right.

In a world where Dalinar is the main hero of these books, I just don't find Adolin decaying morally, if we're using these terms, to be an indication that now he's lost and on a bad path forever. I also 100% believe Sadeas being gone is a great and wonderful thing, and also 100% that Adolin still has to deal with it. My favourite moment that tied together Adolin's arc for me at the end was when he realized that he'd himself been repressing emotional reactions for the last while, as he pushed himself to be strong for the mission, strong for Kaladin, etc etc and realized that he hadn't allowed himself to feel grief. His arc was putting others first and realizing it's okay not to be the star of his world anymore, but now he realized he hasn't emotionally dealt with anything in the course of all of it. In my mind, it's a great place for him to start SA4.

In terms of Sadeas being murdered, many characters express outright approval - Palona, Hoid... A lot of people are happy and/or relieved he's gone. The sheer number of characters who express a positive reaction build the sense that the narrative does not disapprove of Sadeas being gone. Not to re-awaken the argument, but I don't think the consequences for Adolin killing Sadeas are over, but I think the external world around him is not going to be the punishment. The world around him took a look, said "oh, finally!", and happily moved right on.

I do not think that happens 100% of the time, nor does it need to. Different readings of the character is all it is, but I happen to think all interpretations are not equal. Adolin "losing his rust" at Shallan would go against a lot of established characterization for him. There's a lot of room between completely chill and completely freaking out, and I think Adolin is farther away from freaking out than the other side.

I didn't say "not give him pause" either. I would, however, like Adolin to be written with consistent character traits. In three books, Adolin has consistently shown the character traits of being patient, calm, doesn't lose his temper unless it's either of the Sadeas', and has great intuition about other people. The situation described where Adolin automatically loses it without even bothering to ask for details is wildly out of character for him.

Shallan is not the only one who approves of him killing Sadeas - beyond Ialai and the Sadeas men, no one else has expressed displeasure or anger. So this is not a Shallan-specific thing. Adolin already knew he didn't want to be king, and I don't think it's an accurate reading to say that him pushing back on being crowned was because of Shallan; nor does the narrative give any clue or indication that this was wrong on Adolin's part to do so. In both cases, the narrative of the book backs up Adolin in the places where Shallan supports him. It might be walked back in later SA books, but for the moment, the text doesn't support these being bad things. Nowhere did I say slave, and nowhere in English does "give the benefit of the doubt to ask for more background" mean "obey without question". That's putting words in my mouth.

Adolin, from what we know of his character, trusts Shallan and would give her the benefit of the doubt. It would be more in-character for him, based on how the two of them acted when sharing something serious and important with each other, to ask for the story than to just say he would automatically react terribly from hearing "parent" at the other end of "murdered".

It doesn't need to be on a certain level of "bad" for it to matter a lot to Adolin, or for it to matter that it was a lot for him to admit that to her - the first person he said it to. Nowhere in Adolin's POV do we get the sense that killing parents would be an insurmountable thing, whereas he spends a lot of his POVs worrying a lot about killing Sadeas. It doesn't seem to be on a different page to Adolin, which is the point.

Hmm... What's your basis for thinking that the honorblades worked differently for their associated Heralds than with anyone else? My assumption this whole time was that honorblades aren't that changeable, that they were created one way, and it worked the same for Heralds the same as any other non radiant human.

Because it shows up on the front page, it's best to keep spoiler facts out of the titles, as well as tagging with [OB] so people scanning the front page know that the topic in question contains spoilers.

Make sure if a topic contains information from Oathbringer that it's on the Oathbringer spoiler board.

Lopen makes me laugh the most probably more than anyone else in Stormlight, so I gotta go with him.

Bruh, Rua made my LIFE for this! The biggest laugh in OB is because Rua is such a riot. Can't wait to see more of him! In the end, Rua was close but I had to pick Wyndle - such a sensible, nice looking fork. Guy just wants to make some shoes, or chairs!

Odium does not want to fight directly for risk of being defeated, as he has been wounded before.

Varion, I somehow missed your post - must've been skimming. I had forgotten that this was made explicit, that Odium didn't want to go through with the contest any longer.

The interesting thing about Adolin is that he does seem to be teetering on the edge of something. A couple of the things that make me think it probably won't happen is first, obviously Mayalaran. Reviving a Shardblade is something that was thought to be impossible, and standing where we are, I think it'd undercut this story to have Adolin become the champion of the enemy. Second, a smaller point but one that's stuck with me since I read it, is at the Battle of Narak at Stormseat, Adolin loses the Thrill. He thinks that's weird, but ultimately keeps fighting. We know that Dalinar losing the Thrill was the biggest indicator that he was becoming a Radiant, losing connection to Odium's power and becoming connected to Honor's power. Being that Adolin is surrounded by a number of people under the protection of Honor and Cultivation's power, it could be herd effect... Or it could be something more.