Greywatch

She actually does share a big secret, and just because she's only shared one side of it doesn't mean she won't share more. It's kind of a bizarre take on it, to me, to see that Shallan shares something serious that she'd been terrified to share since the beginning of the book's arc, and the importance of that just gets totally shrugged off. Weird. Anyway. Unfortunately, I completely disagree. As I said a couple posts ago, that's not a fact, that's your reading. Just because one doesn't perceive something doesn't mean it isn't there. It was pretty explicit to me, but again, we all clearly have very different perspective on what's going on here.

Amaram does think of himself as a good thing, and straight up tries to convince Kaladin it was a good thing he killed Kaladin's men and sent Kaladin into slavery, so Kaladin should be grateful to him. The comparison to Vin is not going to work. Amaram is a bad person who refused to take any responsibility for his actions and allowed himself to be so wrapped up in "guilt" that he let himself be taken by the enemy. I have no sympathy for him.

Vin still wouldn't have thought of it as a good thing, she wouldn't have thought of herself as a hero for committing murder, and I'm not on board with the argument in the least.

Since my entire response is "we evidently interpret it all incredibly differently, and what you state as factual rebuttals to my reading is only your reading", I think I'll leave it here. The distance between our starting positions is apparently an ocean.

Why do I have to accept Amaram's worldview? Amaram's worldview is one that allows him to murder and hurt people and think of it as a good thing. I really don't care that Amaram thinks he's a good guy - lots of people who do terrible things think they're the good guy of their own story, but the beauty of it is, he's written as the bad guy to people I care much more about. The difference between Vin and Amaram is, Vin was never put in that situation, and she never did do it. Amaram did do it. At the end of it he called it a good thing, too. I never for one second believe that Vin would think of it as a good thing. Amaram is terrible, it'd be useless to think of it from his perspective because his perspective is one that let him murder indiscriminately, and he's written as an antagonist for an excellent reason. I'm relieved that he doesn't get to be the hero, and there's a reason Brandon wrote him as the antagonist.

I didn't say it was going to be more compelling for you; I did say it's wrong to think of it as Venli stealing something from Eshonai. On the contrary, I think Venli has some interesting parallels with Dalinar in terms of someone who's done some very bad stuff and learning to change and do what you can to grow past it. Eshonai could have had good comparisons, also, but it's also wrong to say that Venli automatically doesn't fit in there. Hope and optimism in the face of having done something terrible and trying to make up for it fit right in. Eshonai might not even be the only one to be dead by the time their flashback book comes around. Eshonai also only had interlude chapters in WoR, and the intro (flashback) chapter in OB. Venli only has interlude chapters in OB. As I said before, you don't have to love, or even care for Venli. You can be disappointed. I'm just defending Venli from stuff that is not true.

Just read her scenes again. That's all it is. Her entire store in OB is her realizing that she's not okay with what's happening, that it's not really what she wanted. We're in the post-WoR story now, when Venli actually sees the result of her actions in WoR. That only makes sense if you assume that killing Eshonai and having Venli was a last-minute change. There's no evidence to suggest this, no evidence to suggest that Eshonai wasn't going to die right from the beginning. She's not stealing anything. Venli is getting what she was always going to get.

Being that she split off bits of herself, but her conscious self remains in the same place, I don't see it as false. People change all the time. Things that I used to define myself a year ago are not here anymore, but I'm still me. Shallan has traits, but she is not those traits. I think she'll be much healthier when she accepts them back into herself, but they do not make her Shallan. Shallan makes herself Shallan, whether or not she feels like it. I'm glad you liked it. Yeah, again, Part One was how a book starts, so I thought external signs of it working as the beginning meant that it would unravel throughout the book. However, in full sight of all of OB, I believe I was wrong originally about their starting position - externally, the appearance of a happy relationship, but under the surface, teetering on the edge of the collapse. They become much stronger over the course of OB. Personally, the reason I'm okay with it... Not all situations are going to resolve in the same way in order to be feminist, nor should they be. A woman being strong and standing on their own is not the only way a female character arc can be feminist. A strong woman who should never accept any dependence on a man or romance with a man, etc., is one very specific reading but it's not the only way to be feminist. Using an example of something different... In other fandoms, many women of colour have expressed that this specific idea is more popularly expressed from white women - since women of colour are expected to be strong, all the time, alone, in real life, without needing any help, female characters, (esp if they're not white), in fiction who get to be the ones to be rescued and/or have a really strong, sweet relationship is more feminist. Them standing alone and expected to take care of themselves is not empowering but dehumanizing; an expectation that since they are strong and independent, that that they are not equally deserving of empathy or love. Hence, receiving those things are arcs where women get to be empathized with and worthy of being supported and loved. That's one example, but there are some situations, in real life and fiction, where a woman standing alone, self-sufficient, is not the be-all, end-all feminist reading. To add onto this, Shallan is mentally ill. With what, specifically, I don't think we're going to get a clear-cut real world analogue. But she is mentally ill. I strongly disagree that expecting a mentally ill to do it herself is really unfair, and especially to women readers who are in the same boat. To quote someone a few pages earlier in this thread, asking for help when you need it is really hard. Exponentially moreso when you're someone like Shallan. Shallan, who for a large part of this series, doesn't believe herself worthy of being loved or supported or accepted. That she sees herself as awful and weak, but learns to accept that she might not be, that someone she really likes/loves doesn't see her as pathetic or broken... To some readers, this was not a moment of weakness, but a moment of strength. Being able to ask for help, when you're in Shallan's shoes, it's really hard. For me, the clear resolution of "character fears being rejected by loved one throughout story" ends with the loved one either accepting or rejecting them. Adolin accepted Shallan. I'd certainly be interested to see perhaps the next arc between them being Shallan worrying that she's becoming too dependent on Adolin and growing into a place where she's strong enough to know that it's okay to be rejected and still feel like a good person/worthy/etc., but if that happened in OB, it would've been too much, too fast for their relationship. Kaladin's arc and involvement in this is a whole separate thing, but also, the point is that it's a whole separate thing. (His meeting with Laral, a former love interest and he realizes that his feelings for her have died and he can easily move on, is a clear reflection of the later moment where he reflects on Shallan, a love interest, where he realizes that his feelings for her are not what he thought they were; bookend moments, one at the very very beginning of his scenes and one at the very very end. etc etc)

We see in all of OB's scenes that Venli was indeed mistaken about what was going to happen with stormform, and how deeply and irrevocably it would change her sister and her people. Though she can't undo the damage, she starts doing what she can. And of course, you don't have to love her. But she was mistaken about what would happen, she does regret it, she does want to change, and she does start taking steps to do so. Timbre thinks she's as worthy as Eshonai, and she's not stealing Eshonai's arc; she's getting an arc of her own, with different themes and different deeds and efforts for her to try and achieve.

I actually do think I can have it both ways, 100%. I can think based on my reading of the text that there is a real Shallan, who Adolin sees (not chooses) and Veil/Radiant are more fake than real, fake in the sense that their traits are not 100% from Shallan. Shallan invented at least some of their personalities, thoughts, backgrounds, and/or ideas, and so not all of Veil and Radiant are necessary for Shallan to be whole. Some of Veil and Radiant are things that Shallan pushed onto them because she was afraid of/inability to present them in her own core person, so she created alternates in order to present them anyway, and those things Shallan will - I believe - come to realization through her continuing healing process, that it's okay for her to be as she is. That she, Shallan, can drink and have rude manners and be confident, and not have to push it off onto an alter. Things like Veil being darkeyed from a rough background and all the things that come from that, won't be, because Shallan invented those for Veil without having the experience to make that real, and I'll be honest - I rolled my eyes at Veil's "storming lighteyes" comment; an example of something that she puts on like a costume but has no basis to say that's her real experience. So much of Veil is like that - wholesale invented, and though I hope Shallan takes home some hard lessons about how she treats people under her in the caste system from Veil, Veil is in one sense, a costume of a darkeyes that Shallan puts on. She can be treated as a darkeyes when it's useful, when it's convenient for her to grab information, but neither Shallan nor Veil have to actually live as one 100% of the time. Shallan has certainly written real aspects of her personality into Veil and Radiant, and those parts are what I hope she'll take back in the next book or so, but there are elements of Veil and Radiant that she won't and hopefully can't reintegrate. Accepting the real self of another. Their arc goes: 1. Both cheery but lying (by omission) to each other, enjoying each other's company, but too scared of being rejected to be honest with each other. In Part One especially, I was sure Adolin and Shallan were doomed. They both canonically, have lines about fearing that the other will reject them if they know the truth, and not wanting to screw this up, that they both want to make this work. Adolin is afraid to tell anyone the truth about Sadeas, Shallan is afraid to tell anyone about Veil. Part One especially, I was interested to see how Shallan is not terrified about people finding out about the root of her brokenness, her parents' deaths, but the result of that - Veil, and thus, the evidence of her brokenness. Since this is what Shallan is mentally and emotionally occupied with in the beginning of OB, that she talks about Veil to Adolin later in the same book is deeply significant. 2. The weight of the fear continues to press on them. Both do some self-reflection independent of each other, neither forced into it by the other, ups and downs throughout the middle section of the story, stutter-stepping through their doubts. Adolin reflects on killing Sadeas and his own feelings about it. He has doubts about who he is, the kind of man he is, the kind of man he wants to be, whether he is the best one for Shallan combined with his absolute admiration for Kaladin and comparing himself to Kaladin both. Shallan has - wow, just her entire arc about not being sure who she is and what she wants. Veil (I'd say more than Radiant, but I'd be fine with saying both) acts as her version of her doubts, giving her an outlet to seriously consider a legitimate second option in Kaladin. Important that both Adolin and Shallan know that it's Kaladin. The doubts are legitimate and it's worth it to know that their doubts could be relationship-ending. Their doubts mirror each other's. 3. Despite the constancy throughout this book, neither of them act on their doubts. (!!!) 4. In the emotional crux of their arc, in my opinion, the beginning problem of dishonesty is met with honesty. Both of them admit something difficult to each other; the same problem they were occupied with since the beginning. (This is when I knew I'd read the two of them wrong at the beginning, as this is strongly a narrative arc being resolved.) Both of their arcs, having started together, split apart in the middle, and then dovetailed back together at the end. The exact same problems they started with are answered, explicitly. 5. Having reached a new step in their relationship, having learned they can share something difficult with the other, and learning that the other will still accept them with the same affection they did before, the relationship is cemented - at least for book 3. The fear that, if the other sees the real them, will reject them or react badly, is proven false. Told about Veil, the extremely obvious evidence that Shallan is not well, Adolin accepts her just the same, doesn't think she's a monster, doesn't think she's broken; told about murdering Sadeas, Shallan accepts him and doesn't think he's a bad person, or not worth being with. Adolin's doubts about not being as cool as Kaladin to be in a relationship with Shallan, and Shallan's doubts about being too broken and awful to be in a relationship with Adolin; both threads... Constant threads through the whole book... Since the beginning... Are resolved explicitly at the end when they declare after everything they still want to be together. And then they choose to be together.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Yeah... but I don't feel I have to choose between Amaram and Sadeas. They're both terrible people, for different though externally similar reasons, and there are a whole host of characters who are much more moral, compelling, and overall "good" (for a given definition of "good") who I can choose 100 of over either of these men. Saying that Amaram is more morally defensible than Sadeas really isn't saying much.

Seeing as Shallan's whole arc through all three books has been self-hatred and fear, I don't think she needs to go through any more pain to make current happiness convincing. My reading, I can definitely imagine that. She still has more to go, but I'm relieved that she was finally allowing for the possibility that she's allowed to accept something good happening to her without talking herself out of it. Veil, in WoR, was treated exactly like Shallan creating a character to act, and that's what I got out of the WoB. Personally, I do think there will be some element of reintegration, but neither do I believe that Veil and Radiant are completely Shallan. Especially Veil, seeing as Shallan invented a backstory wholesale (and some elements of Veil come from this invented backstory). Shallan has clearly been experiencing the symptoms of something something dissociative, but I'm not on board with Veil and Radiant existing (as we know them in OB) also existing previously in WoK and WoR. Can't wait to see Shallan's unshrouded childhood in the text sometime, and I'd buy the tentative, unproven idea that Shallan had alters in the childhood we can't see, but neither would I die on that hill, either. Less important to the overall point, but I am also a female, feminist reader who isn't bothered by the plot point of Adolin seeing the real Shallan, mainly because this is a solid conclusion to both of their narrative arcs and the fulfillment of the theme of their relationship in OB

We got another... couple decades... Sorry.

Venli didn't know for sure she'd get a nahel bond and be "safe" in atonement; she's taking on great personal risk accepting Timbre. Venli also wasn't planning to kill Eshonai; she was wrong about the effects of stormform, and regretted it. She was genuinely upset when they found Eshonai's body. That's just... not accurate to what Venli's story arc. Speaking more broadly, I don't find it helpful to think about it in terms of "they deserve to be redeemed" or "they don't deserve it". People make choices, and sometimes people do awful things and choose to keep doing awful things... And sometimes people do awful things and decide to change their behaviour. To me, the stories of people recognizing that they were wrong and deciding to make themselves better are really compelling. OB was when I decided Dalinar was my favourite, honestly.

Hmm... Since this is book three out of ten, we don't know that there are plot threads that are actually closed? Since there's going to be another seven books coming after this one, I am okay with it, yeah.

I despise Amaram, and I find his excuse of "the greater good" weak. He insists that all the evil things he did were okay because they were for a good overall purpose, and refuses to admit that the bad things he did were even bad. I'm glad he's gone.

Another, easier assumption is that the sibling is neither male nor female, hence third person pronoun. And since English doesn't have a singular non-gendered pronoun, "they" it is.

I voted Amaram. He's the worst.

@maxal The only thing I disagree with in that is that Adolin's faith in his father is blind; arguments can be made for misguided or holdouts from his childhood, but since he is willing to disagree and engage on those disagreements with Dalinar, I don't think I can agree it's blind, mainly because that implies without question or doubt. Adolin does have questions and doubts sometimes, but he does trust Dalinar. Other than that, that's all very close to my reading of his character. A pleasure to read it.

I just don't see those traits as gone from Shallan just because she put them in Veil and Radiant - they still exist in Shallan, and she used those traits in herself to play the part. Those traits will "come back" to Shallan (bad phrasing but what-have-you) as she realizes she can express them in her own person again. Where up until now, she's been too afraid to express those traits publicly, by accepting herself more and more, the alters will "take over" less and less. Veil and Radiant not functioning without Shallan is an absolute given - they're inventions of her. Shallan can function without the alters; she made them because she thinks she can't but - assuming of course that the end result will indeed be reintegration - one day Shallan will be there and the alters will not. I disagree that Shallan using her own traits to create alters means that those traits suddenly stopped existing in her.

Seeing as Veil and Radiant are also textually made up by Shallan, with details, backstories, and thought processes that Shallan doesn't have but invented in the same way a writer writes a character, I find the amount of "real" Shallan that exists in them not that much. Veil is so much just an invention that it falls apart in Kholinar because Veil isn't a real person and didn't have the life experience that Veil was supposed to have, and then it falls back to Shallan as the fakeness of Veil is unavoidable. There are bits and pieces of herself that exist in Veil/Radiant, "versions of herself", but there was still enough of a personality for her to fall back on. Shallan sees this core person as useless and weak and awful, but she needed to learn to see that self as valuable and worthwhile and good, which is her actual character arc in this book. Unless we get something different in SA4, right now, I can't agree with the dominant theory of "real/mask/etc!Shallan".

Perhaps a longer response on the whole thing later, but I've never seen Navani as Dustbringer before - that's pretty wild. What do you see in here for it?

Unfortunately, this is a matter of life for us as we exist in the spaces in between the releases between books. We have all this time to build up ideas and expectations that over time become very central to our idea of what a successful next-in-the-series would look like, but don't have a bearing on it. It's hard to not have expectations. I'm really jealous of future readers who get to read these all in a row - they miss on these discussions, but they don't have three years in between each one where we develop ideas that will inevitably be wrong. Everyone's going to be wrong about something in the next book, and we just have to make our peace with how that affects how we read in the future. In the meantime, these discussions are still fun and meaningful.

I agree, it doesn't feel good when it turns out we were wrong. But that doesn't mean everyone should stop guessing and theorizing and discussing any more.

The thing about that is I don't need a counter theory. I can take a look at a theory, see the evidence, and still say, "no, this isn't convincing." I don't need to have a counter-theory in order to disagree with one. The use of "mask" lines up with how I think of people, all people, mentally healthy people and mentally ill people, covering up their flaws and trying to show their best face to someone. There. That's my take. Now you have the chance to agree with it or not, but I don't need to dredge up "evidence" because the evidence is just, I read the exact same text you did, and came out with a different idea. I could copy/paste the exact same text, say, "this means that Shallan is being herself and feeling like her flaws make her unworthy of love but there's no personas here."