weebojello

I think the theory to explain Nalan's actions, like all of the Heralds (Shalash destroying images of herself), is to realize that their attempting to break the Oathpact and turn on Honor was the first instance of Odium corrupting them. The millenia since have only twisted them even further. That's my opinion, though. In the WOB, he stated that one Herald went back for the sword, and we assume that it's Nalan. If Nalan did indeed go back for his sword, then he is *still* corrupted because what he is supposed to do is go back to Damnation (Braize). This not being done indicates to me that he is still twisted. As for killing proto-KR...that is interesting. So Nalan heads an organization called the Skybreakers. Shallan's brother was a part of it, and they were attempting to stop, similar to the Ghostblood's, Amaram from completing his goals or even existing, let's say. This works on two levels. We don't fully know why the Recreance occured. We know what happened by the KR, but the after effect is theorized is that is somehow cutoff all the Voidbringers from having any power or existing, and doing so for sometime. Nalan is also a deific being (worshipped / honored in parts of Roshar). The KRs are hated by all, and Odium knows that the KRs were killing Voidbringers. He has already corrupted the Heralds, and Honor is splintered. It is in Odiums interest that the KRs stay as disgraced and powerless for as long as possible. Therefore, trying to kill proto-KRs is a good thing. What we really don't know, and the next book may explain more, is how much Nalan knew and when. The Skybreakers and Ghostbloods appear to be aligned by their actions but could be coming from entirely different directions. The Ghostbloods seem to be a cosmere wide organization, similar to the 17th Shard. (huh, is there a WOB on that?) So, enough rambling for me for now. Great theory, but ... there's so much we don't know, and maybe won't know until Dalinar's book - which theoretically should deal a lot with the KR history. No doubt we'll learn more of it in the upcoming two books, though. Hopefully the next book will detail the Heraldic corruption (if it is indeed a corruption).

I considered Hoid as well. He clearly has shown the ability, but he can do so much! I opted to look more as there was a spren bond potential. I cannot wait for the transcriptions. Luckily there is football today....

Would that be his brother, Tien? Tien always cheered him up, similar to Shallan always smiling. It would also kind of make since so far the KR bonding seems to cluster around certain families.

Well, that's an interesting thought. I believe, as posted above, that Honor would need to be reformed. Long term prognosis is difficult. I can't imagine the point of the series is that the cycle of desolations is continued because of Herald transfers...and Odium runs amuck. So, at some point even if there are reformed / new Heralds, Odium must be splintered or driven off permanently. But that's my bias.

Well, Brandon has stated that Allomancy will be pushing spaceships in the final Misborn trilogy. Interesting idea that lashing / storing could be used in a contraption to allow for similar things to happen.

Argent, Yeah - thanks. In my mind I was meaning what you typed, but wrote down something completely different. Yep, it's the # of Oaths / Ideals and not bonds as that's implicating surges potentially. My goof! Would we get RAFO'd on the shardplate being the spren copying inherent Herald toughness? In my minds eye, Herald physiology is nearly identical to a Returned physiology. It would be interesting to see what Zahel could do fully unleashed at his Returned Vasher level on Roshar. And so, my tangent aside, a KR with plate is the nearest equivalent to a Herald as one could get.

We do have confirmation from the letter that Hoid wrote in TWoK. The letter is a conversation between Hoid and the leader of the 17th Shard, who are "hunting" Hoid. Hoid is asking for help in defeating Rayse, and mentions Ati directly as a person that was kind and nice, and eventually fell to the intent of his shard, Ruin. Because Hoid was at the shattering of Adonalsium, we are able to ascertain that it is very likely that all named Shardholders, Ati, Leras, Aona, Tanavast, Rayse, Bavadin are first generation Shardholders - the shards themselves being the shards of Adonalsium. **Yes, I forgot a couple of Shardholders...**

Thanks for the clarifications. I've tried reading all the WOB's, but there are so many threads over so many years that even the excellently compiled ones done during the WOR tour can get lost. The more I think of it, the more I'm fairly certain that shardplate mimics the natural toughness of a Herald, allowing Kaladin, etc, to gain those extra abilities. Apparently, knowing that Kaladin is at 3 bonds, Shallan at 4, it stands to reason that if plate is part of the bonding process, it doesn't come until the 5th, OR, it involves the unique abilities of a different KR class to make. Oh well. Let's hope there's a book in 2015 (sigh, 2016....).

General Stormlight Questions: 1) Do we have any confirmation that the regular slave parshmen are actually voidbringers. My reasoning is this: I thought Dalinar's question to the Stormfather was not answered satisfactorily. Also, the Alethi warcamp was unaffected by any parshmen turning into voidbringers. Also, in the spanreed communications to everyone from Urithuru, there were no attacks / instances of parshmen turning into voidbringers. 2) Why does Syl not care about shardplate? Shardblades are anathema, but the plate she seems relatively oblivous, too. I suspect the next book will clear us up on the origin of shardplate, but I was wondering if there were some WOB about this. 3) If spren were the attempt to replicate the what Honor did to the heralds, is it reasonable to assume that shardplate is nothing more than attempting to mimic a Heralds inborn "toughness". Basically, a Herald unsuited is equivalent to a suited / functional shardplate suit of armor. 4) Do all KR friendly Nahel-bonded spren (Wyndle, Patter, Ivory, etc) have the same aversion to shardblades that Syl has? Or is just an aversion by those more closely bound to Honor? Any help is appreciated!

The child quote seems way to overtly Old Testament biblical for me for Brandon to put that kind of dilemma on Kaladin. I mean, I'm just wishing he does write in a situation where Kaladin, or any character, has to sacrifice a kid. If it's that of a hero, wow. Sadly, given the morality of certain characters - Taravangian, etc, I could see that actually being something that would happen. *sigh* The initial quote is interesting. It somewhat supports another recent thread talking about Dalinar or Kaladin ascending to Honor. The opportunity is given and refused perhaps? Either way, the unmade in charge of prophecy is amazingly subtle, and doubly effective for such a thing. However, prophecy is NOT of Honor. Clearly of Odium, but according to Honor, also of Cultivation. More mud to wade through.

I was intending the word "stack" as I guess more of compounding - Kaladin's lashing are 2X as strong using Jezriens blade. We now know that it is certainly > 1X (spren or Jezrien's honorblade), but less than a full 2X (full powered spren + pull powered Jezrien blade). I was not intentionally referring to stacking in the context where Kaladin's Wind runner abilities + Dusbringer blade would give Kaladin access to four surges, which is correct. I blame my too many years of playing EQ for the loose usage of "stacking".

Well, if Taln is not Taln, then my thought is that Taln is Jezrien which would compound the reason to have Shallash be a focus as well. The duplication of orders is troubling though. I think overall it's pretty good - the emphasis on the two heralds is interesting coming immediately after Dalinar. Given that he has a bunch of books planned after Dalinar, there has to be a really good resolution for a bit. I can't imagine us all taking it easy if there's a cliffhanger for ... 5 years.

Cryptic to us, but cryptic to someone versed in the Oathpact and the rules? Also knowing that Cultivation is also still around? Honor certainly made some assumptions regarding a lot of the information shared to Dalinar. 1) Dawnchat! 2) Assumed knowledge of events not named - Recreance, etc. Honor can / should have done better. The idea that Odium is bound to the Roshar system by the author of the 2nd letter is interesting. There was a WOB that Odium desires essentially to shatter *all* shards - having succeeded at 3 of the other 15. This means that Cultivation is due next. By Wyndle, we know that Cultivation is feeling fairly hopeless / indifferent. We also know that Odium needs a lot of time to recover from shattering a shard. Hence, Odium isn't really bound to the Roshar system, but has been building power to shatter Cultivation, and then if there are no other shards in the system, will probably leave and go to another system. Harmony being at the top of the list of Odium has always feared happening. Back to the recent posts: I had the general sense that Honor / Odium had an agreement of sorts. Honor, in holding up his end of the bargain, does the Oathpact where the Heralds fulfill Honor's stated purpose in the agreement with Odium. The horror of unending immortality with torture was too much in the end for the Heralds. Really fascinating. I'm hoping in Dalinar's book we get some clues as to the original intent / agreement of all this to help us put things in context!

So, I was hesitant to say that it was Taln, but I do think that he is, in fact, the Herald in question. Moogle, I'm a bit confused. I read that as they have to leave Roshar to stop a Desolation. When they "break under torture" in Damnation (Braize), they are exelled and start a new Desolation on Roshar. But apparently, based on the last answer, as long as one Herald remains in Damnation, the Desolation cannot start. BUT, what is stated is that if they do NOT leave for Damnation, one will start again. So this is where I get confused reading it - The Desolation in the prologue to Way of Kings technically never ended because there were all (minus Taln), still in existence. Furthermore, other Desolations started because the Heralds never left. Back to the idea that the Ancient of Stones / Taln connection. The idea is that the bondsmiths realized all of this. They discovered the oathpact, realized that only one of them was actually adhering to it, and gave him as much support as possible to stave off Desolations by sacrificing all bonds. What bothers me about the Recreance happening - and it must be said, what an amazing event to come up - is that Honor was most likely alive to see the Recreance. He was alive at the last Desolation to see the Oathpact sundered (well, at least attempted), and yet ... didn't really do anything. Honor, while being just, would also be somewhat vengeful when a bond / oath is broken, and frankly, I have a hard time imagining him just sitting idle the entire time while the Oathpact was being nullified (or at least attempted).

Is the "Ancient of Stones" involved? I cannot remember the name exactly, but I recollect from either Hoid / Taravangian that the Ancient of Stones was holding the desolation. That it "cracking" may be what's having the desolation occur. But in reality, if the WOB is correct in that the desolation timer starts when the heralds all leave Roshar for Braize, then technically this would explain why Voidbringers were continually popping back. The desolation was not over...and Odium was more than content to have himself a lot of time to subtly change the perceptions of the KR. Could not the last epigraph relate to Heralds directly? What I'm driving at is that the KR figured out that they were in a neverending desolation because of the Heralds. I believe the KR attacked the Heralds. I believe the Bondsmiths used the power of the spren that collectively was bonded to the KR to try and "plug" the hole on Roshar, insulating Roshar from Braize. The Ancient of Stones would be located at the nexus / waypoint from where Braize / Roshar have a connection. I think the Ancient of Stones is in fact one of the Heralds that's been "cemented" by the Bondsmith by using the power of the relationship between the spren and the KR. It is this Herald that's keeping the full force of Odium from coming to bear on Roshar, and that bond is breaking as spren return back to the KR. Boy, that sounds confusing. In full disclosure, this was my lunch hour of reading 17th Shard, and now I'm back to deciphering some code here, so my mind is a bit loopy right now.

You can dual wield honorblades. Or shardblade / honorblade, as well. Yes, you would consume insane amounts of stormlight. I don't believe they stack, but I may be incorrect.

Ahh, good to know. I had always kind of assumed that humans originated on Braize, Odium came, they moved to Roshar. This made the Tranqualine Halls now Damnation. The Heralds, while being human, might have been born on Braize, which is why they go back. I've never really understood if that was part of the Oathpact, or part of the agreement between Odium / Honor that the Heralds as part of the Oathpact adhere too.

I thought the same as you. Did I miss the WOB on this?

I think if we're talking about anything cosmere related, the abilities have to involve Cognitive and Spiritual. For instance, ascending to a shard consumes your body, so you are "physically" dead while still being a live. Being nearly dead (assuming from a virus) would be really powerful on at least one shardworld.

Nightblood seems to be more in the hands of Odium at this point than that of Honor - if one assumes, as I do, that the organization termed as Skybreakers are twisted in purpose and leadership. I have to assume Nightbloods eventual reunion with Zahel will be ... pretty, pretty cool. Zahel unveiling whatever his Returned level is on Roshar will be pretty cool...but I digress. WOB have been cagey in that Shards can be reformed but it's hard. I too think that Cultivation would have the ability to help in those regards. Oddly, it's interesting to see Narvani / Dalinar pair similar to Cultivation / Honor in that Narvani is very creative, always learning, changing, trying new things. It may be that what will happen is this: Cultivation (Reya?) willingly passes on her power to Narvani, who in turn mends the shards and ascends Dalinar combining a bit of the magic from Adonalsium that was present on Roshar prior to the two, and together they rebut Odium to some extent. Similar to how Leras needed Vin to assume the power because Vin, being new to the power could do things willingly that Leras could not having been overruled with intent. Structurally, just looking at the story, considering we have 8 more books and a span of years, I don't know how our good guys can make it. I just don't, unless something like that happens. Appointing a champion and the champion defeating Odium's champion? That works for one desolation, no? Odium still lives. I ... just cannot imagine reading the 10 books of the Stormlight Archive to see Odium whole at the end with a splintered Honor and Cultivation and a devastated Roshar.

Excellent insight on Adolin. I had hoped two things for Adolin during WOR: 1) somehow his shardblade would talk back to him and 2) an actual rock would start talking to him - it being a spren of course. Now knowing what we know, #1 was never going to happen, which is unfortunate, but to be expected. I too look forward to more Ryshadium bonding. Theoretically if Kaladin bonds one...it'll probably be comedic in nature. And frankly, if there's a character that could use some positive mojo, it'd be him.

Those are some really great points! Firstly, my recollection of all the Ryshadium was woefully ignorant. Thanks! I had forgotten there were that many. You raise a great point. Seemingly, Ryshadium being KR friendly would indicate there were at least 9 other KR candidates? My thought is that Ryshadium are *later* in the process of being a KR. For instance, in classical times, a person would become a KR, and then bond with a Ryshadium. After the Recreance, people were still of KR quality, but because of the sundering with spren, there were no spren to bond with, so the Ryshadium would then bond with the KR quality people. Certainly I think Adolin needs to be considered of KR quality. So to sum up, it's not that you can't bond a Ryshadium first, it's that normally it wouldn't have happened first, and in a normally functioning KR Rosharian system, you wouldn't bond a Ryshadium first. I still have the unfounded thought that there's a part of a person (spiritual / cognitively) broken that is needed for any bond. But that's solely because the instances of characters that are KR that we have seen *are* broken. Hmm, as I think of it, by that token, the death of Sureblood might actually be the part that helps break Adolin more? I cannot recall specifically, but I seem to recollect that he was missing the thrill at the final battle after Sureblood was killed. As I right that, I realize that he'd missed it in duals prior though. Shoot. Soooo close on that. I certainly think that Adolin will bond with another Ryshadium at some point. I find your suggestion that the lack of Sureblood may impact Adolin making him slightly more erratic probable and correct. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am eagerly looking forward for more WOB on this topic and him exploring this connection even more!

Interesting idea. I was going to suggest that bonding a Ryshadium may in fact stop a spren bonding with a person. Dalinar being the exception only because the Stormfather was *required* to give Dalinar the visions because Gavilar had died (and was receiving the visions). The negative part to that hypothesis is that Adolin is clearly on his way to bonding to a spren as evidenced by him no longer having access to the thrill. Ultimately, my thought was this: spren bonds with human, as the bond gets stronger, spren / human bond with Ryshadium. In the book, are the only two Ryshadium we know those of Adolin / Dalinar? Does Elkohar have one, as well?

Hrrm. Some good points here by many people. Is it not resolved that the KR Surges are entirely Honor / Cultivation mixtures? Certainly some KR Surges are similar to Voidbringer. According to WOR, were not Dustbringers similar in effect to Voidbringers such that people would certainly confuse them? To me this means, more than anything, circumstantial confirmation that KR Surges may be *similar* in some aspects to Voidbringer surges, but spren alone are not it. My opinion would be that Odium Spren do not really mix with *anything*, though cultivation spren *may* be the easiest for them to blend with *if* there were to be such a thing. What I wonder is how much direct control Odium has over his.

It seems that the "big bad" in the Stormlight Archive has the upper hand by far. Having someone take up Honor seems quite appropriate in that it would "even" out the odds as I see it. That person being Kaladin? That I doubt. It seems to me that Dalinar is more the choice - being a bondsmith, and bonding with the largest splinter / spren left - the Stormfather. Kaladin leading a reformed Herald group...would make sense in that I've had a terrible suspicion that Kaladin will achieve his wish of spending time in Damnation (iirc, talking to Shallan while in the chasm's) - and it seems Heralds are the ones that do that. What I can't really fathom, and this is simply more a technical thing, is how this can be spread across 10 books. It seems to me knowing that we're going to have two sets of five books, that the end of the first arc is some ...temporary stopping of Odium and picking up later when he comes back. For instance, knowing the WOB that desolations end when all the heralds return to damnation, means that book 5 ends with the death of the other nine heralds (and also assumes that the being known as Taln to us is in fact somone else (Jezrien??)). Then the final five would be the theoretical ending of Odium in the Rosharan system. I dunno, though. Just 8 more books to know.