DiamondMind

11thorderknight: 1) IIRC, Lightweavers are the only Order with something besides Ideals. 3) Yep, though I think that it might not break down the way you put it. Some orders just naturally have lower numbers than others; the Bondsmiths, perhaps, because they bond with unique spren of which there are a limited number. 4) I don't think the squires have any Surgebinding whatsoever, just gain the ability to passively absorb Stormlight to up their combat abilities and healing. Anyone could become one as long as they have a connection to the Radiant and have to gain Surgebinding on their own. Others disagree, and you can see more discussion in that thread, titled "Radiant Squires." 5) We have absolutely no idea, but it seems to be picked by the spren. Of course, the spren are attracted to those who best follow the Ideals of that order, so it's kind of a chicken and egg thing. 6) My guess? Temper tantrum. The Stormfather will come around eventually, with or without more Oaths. Wileygirl: The 9 orders who broke their bonds did so by abandoning their Oaths, which killed the spren in the process.Those Oaths are of course different for each order, but it seems that something caused the Recreance - ie. caused all the Knights Radiant to abandon their oaths at once. We don't know what, but there are tantalizing clues in the epigraphs. More discussion is in the chapter 84 epigraph topic

I'm going to quote the relevant passage from the chapter 60 of WoK that I think answers all of these questions... So this occurs after the desolation, when the Heralds have already departed. He speaks of the Heralds as coming again a long time in the future because they are currently suffering in Damnation and won't return until the next Desolation. So many people die and the destruction is so bad because Alakavish did something before the Desolation occurred, presumably starting a rebellion of some sort.

Probably because they never actually succeeded, and Nalan seems to be able to track people by their surgebinding. A small cult never would have gotten his attention, or if they had maybe he left them as fools because you could never bring back the KR that way. As for the others, the Sons of Honor and the Diagrammists and relatively new, and perhaps Nalan didn't have a problem with the Stone Shamans until now.

Yeah, this was more of pre-release digging when we were hunting for more info. This could be any number of things, though the Unmade-Essense Parallel is interesting

I was not thinking when I wrote that--I meant spoiler quotes so that you can expand and minimize a certain singing at will and not have to scroll through the whole thing.

I'm going to merge the two lists, so we can discuss it instead of making new ones: Yeah this is all confusing. The count so far: 1) Ghostbloods - seem the oldest, most established, and most Cosmere-aware, and might be Worldhoppers. Led by Thaidakar. Want to find Urithiru. Ultimate goals unknown, but vague enough that they don't see Shallan's involvement in the re-founding of the Radiants as a barrier to her being a secret member. Have some sort of mutual beef with Jasnah that seems to go beyond a race to find Urithiru. Opposed to the Sons of Honor. 2) Sons of Honor - Sought to restore the Voidbringers in order to bring back the Heralds and restore the the supremacy of the Vorin church. and restore the supremacy of the Vorin church. Seem to understand that the two go together. Gavilar seems to have been a part of it, or at least that its purpose is based off his visions and intentions. Amaram is a member. Possibly led by Restares. 3) The Diagram - led by (maybe founded by) Taravangian. Seek to save a remnant of humanity from the Last Desolation. Taravangian seems to have known of Gavilar's plans, or at least thought fondly of Gavilar, but unclear if Gavilar was ever knowingly involved with them. 4) Skybreakers - Originally a Radiant order, currently a group of self-appointed law enforcement founded and directed by Nalan. (They also could be the original Skybreakers, see Windrunners theory.) Primary purpose seems to be to prevent Desolation by killing any potential surgebinders. Opposed to the Stone Shamans for reasons unknown. 5) Envisagers - Worshipped the Radiants and kept alive knowledge of their abilities. Attempted to restore themselves as teh Knights Radiant by placing themselves in positions of physical peril. May have devolved into a crazy cult, and may now be extinct. 6. Stone Shamanate. Made Szeth "truthless" because, at the very least, he predicted the return of the Knights Radiant. Protecting the Honorblades (presumably for 4500 years) but have shown no desire to assume responsibility for humanity. Opposed to the return of the Knights' Radiant. 7.17th Shard. Looking for Hoid/Wit. Agenda: We actually have no idea what they want with him. "Friends" with the "old Reptile"/Dragon from Yolen. Question about this: Stormwardens - Not secret, but seem to be heavily involved with both Sons of Honor and the Diagram. This could be just individual members, but maybe go deeper than that. My theory is that the Diagram is secretly manipulating the Sons of Honor into doing what they want. We know that they have their own script, and we know that Amaram is adapting it. Is there any other connection?

Also, who else do we know that has a half-mask that leaves open the mouth?

Argh, oh well. Maybe you should put them in with question marks? Chapter 54 is the day of the duel in chapter 53, seen from the first paragraph. Edit: Are you sure about the placement of Chapter 68?

Great analysis! About Jasnah escaping, I think it's generally agreed that Jasnah escaped via Elsecalling, her other Surge, since travelling to Shadesmar by Soulcasting seems to leave her body behind. Since we don't know the mechanics of that surge, we'll probably have to wait until the next book to find out exactly what happened. My personal theory is that she had to choose her destination when hopping into Shadesmar, and it just took her a very long time to get there.

Can you add quotes around the questions so it's easier to scroll through? Otherwise, I think this thread is great and should be pinned considering how many times people are asking questions that have been answered here.

Mraize also refers to the population as the "local species." So he's probably a worldhopper even if he has nothing to do with H.oid

Ok, you convinced me with that last quote, for it's the only one with direct parallelism between the two. Have an upvote! (Though i don't think you need any more.)

There's no rush, we've got plenty of time till the next book. But yeah, you could open a separate one for editing so this one one doesn't get compromised. Oh and another one! Chapter 26, age 332: "Two weeks now, with no word" about Jasnah. I swear there was a quote about one week delayed earlier...this is why we need detailed notes. Edit: Chapter 28, page 342: Shallan "ran into some bandits three weeks ago" gives a rough time placement.

Actually, I'm not sure that the Unmade are the Parshendi gods, just that they are equivalent to the Heralds. Someone made a topic about that, earlier, and it made sense. The quotes Moogle gave are suggestive, but they do not prove that the Unmade are the gods. They certainly hold a place in the mythology, but I don't think they're the same. There is a contradiction of them being splinters of Odium and "those who gave themselves up."

Congrats FireArcadia, two years later. That's extremely impressive. Anyway, for the references, I think you should put in footnotes in one more column and make another tab where you list and expand on them. Make sense? Jasnah was attacked the night of Tanatakach, and Shallan awakens during the day, starting chapter 11. Presumably this is the next day, Tanatakev, and she wasn't unconscious for more then 24 hours. That night, she finds the slaver's camp and awakens the next day, Tanatakah, and starts travelling with them. That should be chapter 13.

Important to the discussion: The frequency of hightorms during WoR can be found here, courtesy of Cheese Ninja.

Unlikely, yes, but he did invite Shallan at the end of the book and said that their ideals aren't in conflict. He might just be trying to corrupt her. Lopen...it would be great, but we've seen inside his head. Maybe the Herdazian agents are the only actual good secret society.

The small group of those he confided in could have formed up by themselves after Gavilar had died to continue his work. Though Seloun's point that Restares was mentioned by Gavilar as sending Szeth might have simply been because he was an untrustworthy person like Sadeas, not that they were working against each other. About the main point, I think we still don't have enough details about what exactly the Unmade are and what Gavilar was trying to do. Assassinating him could have been the only response, though I'm not convinced that there weren't other options.

Wit and Zahel (Vasher) definitely do not count as secret societies. As for Wit's agenda, all we know is that he wants to do something to stop Odium's power, presumably to stop him from Splintering any more Shards. Here's a revised list, with additions underlined: 1. the Sons of Honour: Restares, Amaram, Gavilar (maybe- he might have had the idea but not created the organization) were known members. Sought to restore the Voidbringers in order to bring back the Heralds and restore the supremacy of the Vorin church. 2. The Ghostbloods - agenda is unknown. Mraize, Thaidakar, and Veil are known members. They are opposed to the Sons of Honor. They might be able to align with the Knights Radiant. Might be Worldhoppers. 3. Skybreakers, led by Nalan, - agenda is to prevent the rise of the Knights Radiant in the hope of forestalling a new Desolation. Also warring against stone shamanate of Shinovar. (maybe, Nalan's intentions are unclear.) 4. Envisagers - agenda is to restore themselves as the Knights Radiant by placing themselves in positions of physical peril. May all be dead. 5. Taravingian & the Diagrammists. Agenda to protect a remnant of humanity from the coming storm. Willing to do anything necessary to do so. 6. Stone Shamanate. Made Szeth "truthless" for unclear motives because, at the very least, he predicted the return of the Knights Radiant. Protecting the Honorblades (presumably for 4500 years) but have shown no desire to assume responsibility for humanity. Opposed to the return of the Knights' Radiant. 7.17th Shard. Looking for Hoid/Wit. Agenda: to stop his interference in Roshar/ Rosharian system. We actually have no idea what they want with him. Presumably sent by "Friends" with the "old Reptile"/Dragon on from Yolen.

Wonderful! I still think that we need something like WeiryWriter's notes for lot of other things, but this is great! 1. Can you give references such as quotes or at least page numbers as to how you placed the dates to it's easy to check? 2. Can you list which chapters you haven't added yet so we can help? For example, I notice that you don't have chapter 3, as Cem's timeline did. Also, might you be off by a day for the whole timeline? Two days before Light day might be Ishishev instead, and it could solve the Eshonai problem. (How did you get the names for all the dates, by the way? Extrapolated from what we know?) 3. You can add some of the last Kaladin chapters before the battle of the Tower that I figured out the timeline for here. 4. You could make the list a little easier to read by putting a space between each week or something similar. Anyway, great job! I've already seen discussions getting confused about dates, so they will probably find this useful. Can this thread get pinned, maybe? We've already got a bunch of those... Edit: Chapter 13 is definitely the first day of Shallan's travels with the slavers, Tanatakah. No quote, but the language used can't have it any other way. Chapter 16, page 240: "Adolin's quick duel from yesterday" referencing chapter 14. Chapter 25, page 315: "4 days since" chapter 23.

I think an animated series would be able to handle the magical effects in a much better way than live action, but unfortunately that's generally seen as more childish.

I'm going to start a WoR timeline as a community effort on that board, so WeiryWriter doesn't have to do this all again. Mind if I copy some of this? I'll attribute it to you! Edit: and it looks like you finished one already, an hour after I posted this. Wow, good job.

It's definitely Dalinar himself. He also "seemed almost to glow" when catching the chasmfiend's claw to protect Elhokar.

Is there any way we can help? Donating or something similar?

Mraize is definitely a Worldhopper, and the followers of the Diagram know of him. This is one of the epigraphs: But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it? - From the Diagram, West Wall Psalm of Wonders: paragraph 8 (Notew by Adrotagia: Could this refer to Mraize?) Even though we know this probably refers to Hoid, they think the wanderer might be Mraize. Maybe they are cosmere aware too?