Daishi5

I have an idea that one of the assumptions about desolations may be wrong.  I think the idea that a desolation is a fight of the "good guys" against the evil armies of Odium is wrong.

It is partially an outgrowth of various theories that humans are the evil ones on the planet.

My theory:  A desolation is more like a world war, with many different peoples all fighting each other, with the presence of Odium driving them to commit worse and worse crimes against each other.  Everyone has the ability to be a voidbringer, because voidbringers are not an evil "other" but men who give in to hate.

First, we have the Parshendi from WoK and the repeated mentions of how honorable they are (the voidbringers are somehow much more honorable than the race who can become the knights radiant just seems really weird).  When Dalinar fights them he notes they act with honor in combat, and they only bring two armies after the humans start bringing two armies.  The Parshendi could have been destroying human armies on those plateaus just by bringing more armies, but they never did.  We also have Kaladin noting the same things, the Parshendi fight with honor, avoiding attacking the wounded and focusing on the strongest fighters.  A special note, Kaladin protects the bridgemen by driving the Parshendi to be so angry at him (maybe even hate) that they stop firing on the bridgemen.  Once Kaladin speaks his second oath, he no longer feels he can participate in the Alethi war.

Second, we have the forms of power.  The Parshendi on the plains only change into stormform when driven by the need to survive when they are facing extinction.  So far we have not seen the forms of power among the parshmen who are changed by the everstorm.  Dalinar and Co are expecting voidbringers that destroy the people around them, but we don't have that we just have Parshmen escaping the bonds of slavery.  (I had a small theory in the reaction thread that they didn't change into the forms of power because they didn't have the spren available, so it's possible the parshmen will change into forms of power later and then become the giant army of evil thus ruining this theory.)

Third, we have the blackthorn.  Voidbringers are said to have red eyes.  Near the end of his fight when Dalinar has lost the use of his arms due to injuries and ruined plate, he sees red and kills several guards, and maybe even kills a small child trying futilely to defend his injured father.  Normally seeing red is just a term of art for being really angry, but in this case, I think it might be literal.  After the fight, Gavliar talks about how the killings have driven the people to resist them and will make them hard to control.  Even if his eyes were not actually red, the Thrill drives him to do things that make his enemies hate him.  Furthermore, we see multiple injuries to his arm that render them almost useless for fighting.  In Words of Radiance the surgeon notes that his shoulder is a mass of scars and shouldn't even be useable, Dalinar makes a comment about just keeping going and the surgeon says that is not how things work.  Some people thought that was a sign of Dalinar using stormlight to heal himself.  In this scene we see some of the injuries to his arm that will eventually give him that mass of scars.  After killing Tanalan and taking his shard, Dalinar is using his arms again.  He may have just gotten better from treatment of surgeons, but I think we may actually be seeing him healed because he is an agent of Odium.  

So, if I am right and a desolation is just a giant war of people vs people, that brings up the a couple of questions: how do the Heralds and the KR fit in, what are voidbringers and voidbinding, how do thunderclasts and things like the black essences fit in, and finally how would the giant epic battle we saw the end of in the WoK prologue fit in?

First voidbringers and voidbinding, one idea maybe that anyone could be voidbinders.  Parshendi by bonding with voidspren, and men by giving into the thrill to the point that they are agents of Odium and begin getting powers from it.  I believe the Blackthorn would have been a proto-voidbinder, he apparently was superhuman even for a man in shardplate, Adolin thinks he sees the Blackthorn of old when Dalinar fights to protect the king from the Chasmfiend and his armor glowed at that point stopping the claw.  And again, he feels alive when powered by the Thrill.

The Heralds would have lead people and tried to keep people from giving into the hate, and protected the people from those who had.  The KR would do the same, but it also means that people who stay true to the paths of honor would have access to power themselves to defend themselves against voidbinders.  In the WoK chapter Starfall, the KR who save Dalinar in the vision tell him to come to them because they can teach him how to fight and prevent it from destroying him.  "Fighting, even this fighting against the Ten Deaths, changes a person.  We can teach you so that it will not destroy you."

Thunderclasts and the smoke creatures.  Not sure, but they may be used to make people more desperate, attacking farms so people have to fight over food.

Finally, how does this fit in with Dalinars vision and call to "Unite them."  If Dalinar unites all the people, including Parshendi, they would have other methods of resolving their differences and it would make it harder for Odium to drive people apart to destroy each other.  

Another theory I had on the discord about the Parshmen is that they don't have enough spren available to transform into forms of power, it took weeks for Eshonai to get ready for the major transformation in WoR.  I think we are seeing Parshmen transform based on whats mostly available in the region.  Alethkar is famously warlike, and we hear about what Kaladin thinks are warform Parshendi.  Azir is famous for having a giant bureaucracy and we see parshendi that can negotiate, Thaylen has Parshendi capable of stealing their boats and sailing away.  

It isn't a theory that has any grave implications except that the transformed Parshmen are probably not under Odium's control yet, and they don't have a huge plan for destroying Humanity.  

The Parshmen are not all changing into stormform, but it seems there is a variety.  

I think the Everstorm broke whatever bond they used in the past to enslave the Parshmen and allowed the Parshmen to bond spren as normal.  I suspect Odium is probably going to drum up a normal war to get both sides to hate each other, then both sides are on his side.  Dalinar doesn't need to unite the kingdoms, he needs to unite the humans and the Parshendi.

I also think Lirin is a great candidate.  In WoK Kaladin is pushing the men of bridge 4 to help heal the wounded from other bridges and in his speech he refers to knowing one great man who would heal anyone for no charge and that they (the men of bridge 4) were going to be like him and be the honorable men lighteyes were supposed to be.  

I am thinking Taravangian's radiant is likely to be Jasnah.  I need to find maps and notes about where she came back to see if it fits though.

29 minutes ago, robardin said:

I have a feeling this has been done already, but I quickly did a scan of passages where Renarin says something in TWoK. Not a whole lot grabs my attention...

Ch. 12 - Wit shows up and uncharacteristically teases Renarin about walking the warcamp with him with picking up not one but two women, causing Renarin to blush while denying it.

Ch. 15 -  Wit challenges Renarin to say something, but nothing ridiculous, and Renarin replies with the phrase, "nothing ridiculous".

Ch. 18 - Renarin is the first one to notice an unexpected highstorm.

Ch. 52 - Renarin is described as seeming like he's about to have a seizure when being present during one of Dalinar's visions, and seems to have some knowledge of the Nightwatcher, enough to rule out the visions as being related to Dalinar's visit (since his bane would have manifested at that time, rather than now).

Renarin is also the one to discuss verifying what Dalinar sees in his visions - specfically, the Day of Recreance at a Feverstone Keep - by cross-referencing details with other known facts.

Ch. 60 - he shows intense interest in Navani's anesthetic fabrial.

Ch. 61 - he asks Navani about the Desolations, and mentions that his mother had told him a story, "The Origin of the Makabaki", about people born from rocks.

Ch. 69 - Renarin seems extremely agitated and upset about Sadeas' (false) news of Dalinar and Adolin dying while getting overwhelmed by Parshendi; then, he is very glad to see them both arrive alive.

Bwuh?

...Maybe the first time we see Renarin is the reveal? He was Lightweaving a pair of attractive girls for himself?! 

.... Crazy thought, is Renarin around for all of Dalinar's visions, or could they be somehow different when Renarin is around?

1 hour ago, Pammie said:

Yeah, I thought that this was strange too. Maybe all towns in Alethkar do? This seems really ineffective, wouldn't it make more sense for them to have to go through an intermediary first? 

Also, as nice as it was for Kaladin to visit his hometown and resolve some things, I've been wondering what this little trip to Hearthstone adds to the plot. I'm betting that lil' Oroden will become important later, possibly in the second-half of the series, after the time-skip. But it would also make a lot of sense for Laral to be connected to the queen and somehow be drawn in the issues in Kholinar. Maybe she'll tip Aesudan off that Dalinar is refounding the Knights Radiant? And the queen will use this somehow to try and wrest power away from the Kholins? Also, her presence will also be a constant reminder for Kaladin about his perception of his past and maybe force some character growth.

There has to be some importance to this visit at Hearthstone, and it'd be weird if all towns in Alethkar have a spanreed directly to the queen, but I don't know how it fits together?

Roshone was banished from Kholinar when he used his position as an advisor to the king to his own advantage.  He is not just some no name lighteyes, he is a lighteyes that was banished and fell from great heights.  

8 minutes ago, axcellence said:

And as others have noted, nobody talks to Renarin.  Even though he is a bloody publically declared Radiant!

Why won't he talk or be talked to??

The one thing we know about Truthseers is that they do not write or talk about what they do.  

I wonder if they are strongly connected to cultivation.  They see things because she is good at seeing the future, and they do things to help people grow into what they need to be, kind of like gardeners laying out a lattice for plants.  

22 minutes ago, Nef said:

I wonder if Kaladin will pick up some more squires besides the members of bridge 4? I think it would be interesting if a female character (eg. Laral) became a windrunner member.

I don't see Laral at all as being a squire, she grew up to be one of the arrogant light eyes that Kaladin hates.  When Kaladin reminds her the way Roshone treated his father and how he as good as killed Tien, she replies that Lirin had spoken bad of Roshone.  

1 hour ago, Argent said:

 

Why are you cold, little Renarin? 

 

 

Quote

He could feel something, his ears popping, cold—even more cold than usual—blowing in from the west. And something else. An inner chill.

“Is that you, Stormfather?” Dalinar whispered. “This feeling of dread?”

This thing is not natural, the Stormfather said. It is unknown.

“It didn’t come before, during the earlier Desolations?”

No. It is new.

As always, the Storm

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FYI, From chapter 4 Dalinar also feels some unnatural feeling of cold.

2 minutes ago, sooyangi said:

I appreciate that Laral matured! Mentally I mean.

Rlain! I miss Bridge Four. I know we've seen them in the background but I miss seeing their interactions.

1

I like that Laral saved herself and took control, it's nice to see different forms of the strong woman.  Even if she grew into a type of arrogant light-eyes, Kaladin needs to learn that he does not have to do all the saving, he needs to protect the ones who can't protect themselves.  Plenty of people will stand up and be strong when needed.

I am really looking forward to Kalading flying around WITH bridge four.  They get powers from him, he really needs to open up an oathgate and summon his surge-binding mini-army.  I am curious whether Jasnah or Kaladin will reach Kholinar first to open the Oathgate.  I am hoping for Jasnah just so she can surprise Navani and Dalinar in person.  If Kaladin is there, he would let them know via spanreed asap.    

Kaladin's new chapter was great, it quickly and responsibly settles all of his issues with going home.

Dalinar running around intimidating forces of nature, was also great.

I just noticed something with the names if Voidbringer and Voidbinding are the actual names (it has been a while since I read the books and my wife is reading them now so I can't check without messing up her place on the e-reader).  The Parshendi could be just the voidbringers and are separate from voidbinding, if we take the name literally as those who bring the void, (void-spren, odium-spren, something else.)  Voidbinding could be the void-spren taking over different things and binding them to odium.  

I think the voidbinding is a lot weaker than the voidbringer idea because we also have surgebinding, but the name of voidbringer just suddenly struck me as a name that has an obvious meaning I just completely overlooked.  I assumed voidbringers were the bad guys, but completely missed that they could just be the ones bringing the bad guys.

I just read the entire thread, and the one thing that stands out to me is the whole "remembering the forgotten" does not just apply to Adolin's mother, but also to his blade.  If the theory of resurrecting his blade turns out to be true, it would be one of the biggest cases of remembering someone who had been forgotten.  

I don't think it's really that important for the squires to be able to get around quickly. From a tactical perspective, it would be pretty reasonable if the squires primarily held ground after the Windrunner achieved breakthrough or dealt with a enemy attack. The main problem Kaladin has is not that he needs more firepower (he by himself is probably enough to deal with any typical force, let alone a whole squad of Windrunners) but he needs people to cover areas where he's not, and hold out when things get bad until he can get there (this is effectively what happens at the end of WoR). So Kaladin flies around putting out fires, the squires (probably working with Stonewards) come in after to hold the ground and protect the area from any moderate threats, standing on against bigger threats until Kaladin can get back to deal with it. Air Cav + heavy infantry, basically.

I see what your getting at, but that only works over a small area.  The quote in the book about the Windrunners coming with a considerable number of squires sounds like it is talking about some big event.  I am assuming that whatever event happened that drew the Windrunners and their squires probably didn't happen really close to a group of Windrunners with their squires, I am assuming that they probably had some distance to travel.  I don't really have any strong evidence, its just something that I expect we would see.

I think its possible that Kaladin's squires will probably be able to fly somehow.  Otherwise, most of the time Kaladin's squires won't be able to help him as he has to constantly rush off to save different people.  The quote about the windrunners coming with a considerable number of their squires implies to me that either the squires can keep up with the windrunners somehow, or the windrunners chose to just walk. Unfortunately, the context doesn't make it clear, but I think the windrunners came at best speed rather than walked.

We have a high prince that is: A. not very good at combat or leading soldiers.  B. is highly concerned with the business and economics of his kingdom, and very good at it.  C. does not concern himself with social fashion and status  D.  seems to be demonstrating some very subtle clues about magical abilities

We could just explain D. away by saying he stole fabrials, but combined with everything else, his being dry seems to just be one more strange thing about Sebarial.  

Now that I type his name out, it seems different somehow compared to other names on roshar.  I know a lot of the names are close to symmetrical or related somehow to a heralds name, but I can't see any of that in Sebarial.  

I bet she is not just a herald, she is Vedeledev. 

 

 

Evidence:

1) her accent. considering the herald inate language abilities, he skill with changing her accent seems perfectly reasonable.

 

2) gouging out the eyes. Vedeledev's body focus in the eyes. the weeper gouges them out. but gouging out the eyes seems a bit extreme, even if you do kill with a shardblade. why? because in a world dominated by shardblade and plate, gouging out the eyes would be a dead giveaway if someone bothered to put two and two together.

 

2b) there is no evidence that she has light eyes. infact, the maid's outfit she appears in seems evidence to the contrary. now how would she have a shard blade and still have dark eyes, unless she is a herald? rember szeth's eyes only changed color when he had summoned his blade (I think, I don't have the quote though)

 

3)I am a believer in the idea that after the heralds broke the oathpact, they lived based on a corrupted version of the attributes. Vedeledev's divine attributes are loving and healing. A hired assassin is about as for from that as you can get.

 

As for the blades, she might have been the herald to reclaim theirs, or brandon/the stone shamans might have mislead us.

I really like this theory.

When Taravangian is feeling particularly compassionate, he literally drools. He is incapable of speaking or acting. If this is the 'capacity' to save the world, I'd argue that Taravangian got a pretty raw deal.

I would think that the compassion is more of a defense against Odium.  It isn't that the compassion itself does something, but the compassion could help guard him against being corrupted or led astray.   It may be that his curse is that he needs and has both, but he does not posses them at the same time. 

I hope I am not just repeating someone elses work, but theories have been flying very fast and a few searches found nothing. (Of course finding absolutely nothing leads me to believe I am doing it wrong.)

In the way of kings, I thought Elokhar was seeing the same symbolheads that Shallan was seeing.  However, Elokhar says he sees them in mirrors watching him, which is different from Shallan who sees them through her drawings.

 

"I see their faces in the mirrors.  Symbols, twisted, inhuman..."

Elohkar says to Kaladin that he has stopped seeing the symbol heads around now that Kaladin is guarding him.  

Pattern also makes a statement to someone who called him a voidbringer that to see a voidbringer she needed to look in a mirror.  Normally the "if you want to see something bad/evil, look in a mirror" is an insult intended to imply the bad person is the one making the comment.  But, with Pattern's love of "true lies" he may be telling the truth while also being insulting, and that may mean that some form of voidspren were following Elokhar around.

 

"Know you nothing of Patterns, old human?"  "Voidbringers have no pattern, Besides, I have read of them in your lore.  They speak of spindly arms like bone, and horrific faces.  I should think, if you wish to find one, the mirror might be a location where you can begin your search."

So, TLDR, I believe that what Elokhar was seeing in the mirror were voidspren who were watching him.

What would you like to have read instead?

Renarin would have been nice.  We know something new and strange has been going on there, while Kaladin's story does feel like it was the same story arc again with some nice new details.  

I think there was an earlier theory about the Shardbearer attacking Amaram being a surgebinder because Cenn heard thunder before he saw the shardbearer.  

I think Heleran was not a surgebinder because Kaladin beat him while he had plate and a blade when Kaladin only had a very weak bond to Syl. I think the sound Cenn heard was Nalan dropping off Heleran and then leaving. 

I believe the windrunners also have a natural aptitude for fighting, like Shallan has her memory ability.

I don't know where to go with him.  I think he never hit her because he knew she could kill him, so it seems like a fallen hero story where a good man goes down a dark path.  

However, I am just confused as to why he seems to have ignored the fact that Shallan had a blade.  At the time, the only way to get a blade was from another shardholder, and the thing is worth more than some kingdoms.  It is almost like Shallan showed up with a pristine Picasso, and he just never tried to look into it.  Did he think that Shallan killed a shardbearer and hid the fact from everyone before she was 12?  Did he think she just found it at the side of the road?  

Or, was he somehow involved in her forming a bond with Pattern? Because if Shallan needed to be broken somehow to form the bond, and he doesn't question how she got a Blade, then there may be even more to the story than we have seen so far.

We could be looking at multiple types of bonding.  Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah are bonded to spren that can turn into their blades.  Deadspren-Shardblades could not be bonded by people until they added gemstones.  I think the bonding may have worked somewhat like the fabrials, bonding the blade to the bearer.

And, we have Taravangian and Szeth both identifying that the Stone Shamans are guarding the Honorblades. Syl identifies the blade as an Honorblade.  The Honorblade acts differently when Kaladin holds it compared to the Deadspren-shardblades he has touched.  I think we have reached the "it looks, acts, and quacks like a duck" stage.