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Not to bump a dead horse but I think any source, from this "simulated" time period, would use third person accounts as sources almost exclusively. Since this book is our only window into the Radiants at the moment, we can't know if it's Roshar's only catalog of Radiant orders and powers. If it is who else would the author be quoting? We are technically the 5th person to have this information repeated to us. The source the sourced author got their information from (if not first hand), the sourced author from the in world WoR, the author of the WoR, Shallan (I assume we're reading her notes, like we did with Jasnah's notes in WoK), and then us. Each person, like a game of telephone, is repeating what they 'think' is the context and the point being made. So, when the author of the WoR says that her source is using a phrase matter-of-factly assuming that everyone will agree, we don't know that author's context or the subsequent one's context for saying that. I have a feeling at least one of the authors is dealing with the effects of a pre-heirocracy political climate, if not dead smack in the middle of those events. Which, I believe, might have been where the KR turned into the devoteries. Then the internal politics of each of those orders carried over to the people and the church. Just think though, as people, we trust no one less than a conman or someone who we feel can mess with our minds. We might like them or be respectful to them but we don't trust them. So, if the Willshapers were given the ability to change people's minds. We can guess that people were put off by them. Sort of like how the devotery that formed from the Truthwatchers, who probably claimed to predict the future, was detrimental to mankind and the church. (That's obviously speculation on my part.) So, take what's said in that chapter heading with a grain of salt. Even if Brandon pointed it out to us for a reason, he also pointed out the pointing out of it being pointed out. So, you get into this weird game-theoryesq situation with trying to read too deeply into it. "Does he point us to that statement because he wants us to know that people thought they were uncouth, or because this person thought they were and the other author does not, or do both of them think the same but the inherent bias need to be addressed." And so it goes, deeper and deeper. It won't really be clear until he chooses to make it clear. So speculation on it, in my opinion, is futile. Not that we should stop doing so. Speculating on these books is the spark of life in an otherwise dull grey life, for me. So, don't ever stop, God knows I won't!

YAY! My pie remains in the sky! I had thought he took the Bridgemen to the Bridge 4 barrack once he treated them. If he wasn't as injured as all that, he might have just gone on back to his own crew or to god-knows-where. I don't want anyone to mistake what I'm saying. I DO NOT think the man Kaladin helped IS A HERALD! I just mean, that as the theory goes that Taln isn't really Taln, that this man might be the one who was used as his replacement. As a decoy or puppet. It was just too interesting to not say anything about, to see two men with matching descriptions in the same book. Also, with so many unspecified powers still remaining. It might be possible for say a Willshaper to change someone's mind into something else. I know it's a lot of speculation I just wanted to point it out as if I found it interesting, I thought some here might as well. Thanks for the time taken to respond and correct our misinformation.

I'll take your word for it, I knew this one was flimsy at best. I just noticed an almost exact description of our saved Bridgeman and the Taln introduced at the end of the book. Then thought, "Wait a minute..." I didn't ever remember hearing him going anywhere or doing anything and thought we just might have lost track of him in the story. I remember the fact Dabbid was staring up at the sky, even in rain, without blinking or caring. I just never put two and two together that they were the same dude. Which I won't doubt they are. So, in other words, poop. Poop right on this one!

No! He didn't say that! Not because I know for a fact that he didn't say that... but because I don't WANT him to have said that! It will completely undermine my theory! Then, I can't come here and keep speculating about how it's real and I'm right! So, no.. that's my final answer! I have wondered about how they got stormlight, if my theory is correct. I remember a passage that says the built Urathiru close to "Honor". So, maybe in the days of the Oathpact they were capable of having their gems filled up by him directly or something strange like that. It makes me curious what those inhuman figures who stride the storm are. Maybe they are some sort of prison for Honor and Cultivation or The piece that Odium sacrificed to shatter Honor, as another theory of mine goes. Since Odium is refered to as "The Broken One". Hate takes a part of you with it. To enact and execute hatered. You have to be willing to lose part of yourself to kill the things you hate. It's a prison that consumes you and forces your hand in a way. So, my thoughts on that, are that to destroy the shards in the way he does, he must be willing to pay any price to see his will done. Just like real hate. I always assumed "pure" in Purelake came from the shallow, clear water. That is why I never put any extra thought into it. Your theory though, is a really good reason to question it. I had forgotten that the water drained out of the Purelake before a Highstorm. I usually skip over the interlude that's set there. I don't know why but it kind of annoys me. I will have to re-listen to it now, with your theory in mind. I think that a WoB said that the fish there were possibly one of the magic systems on Roshar. That their special powers weren't just imaginary or mythical. That there might be a reality behind a fish that can help you find things or a fish that is lucky... It might show that their definitely is investiture in the waters of the Purelake. Also, there either once was, or is still a castle at the center. Maybe there were spires of investiture throughout the land. Feverstone Keep, Urithiru, and the Purelake Building may all be something to do with one another. As the only one we know still exists is Urithiru. Errant thoughts, I freely and completely admit, but still, there may be something going on in that vein. Where a dramatic change caused the former systems to break down. I mean you don't call an event "The ending of all things" for no good reason. So Arahetium (Christ I have no idea how that's spelled. I don't even know if it's in the ball park.) could have changed absolutely everything. I just heavily feel that the Highstorm was created, just as the Everstorm was. If it is the opposite of the Highstorm, it seems like it would be coming from the enemy of the original storms creator. Which, may have been honor, cultivation, or Adonalsium. Nothing would surprise me. Though, for the Highstorm to be a specific attack on the Voidbringers by the KR. That would certainly be an offense worthy of breaking the "life before death" clause. Which is one of the few tenants that all the KR followed and swore to. As opposed to the various other concepts. Also, there was something somewhere I remember reading about how the storm was part of the planet and why the lands of Roshar took the shape they did. All because it was Adonalsium, not the 3 shards that designed and originally created the inhabitants.

I think your name is Debbie in real life, because you just became a huge downer!

See, I was thinking he sort of fell out of view. Like he was assumed to be in the Barracks but it's not directly stated. Also, as Natc (The Southern accented, grammatically deficient NAZI. At least that's how my mind interprets his name, every time I see it.) states, the validity of the Taln we see has been questioned. As it's unclear if he's who he says he is, because of things like his sword not matching in one it's an enormous "spike or pike" in another it's a giant cleaver. There are too many issues with him and his situation. Also, if you notice, the individual claiming to be Taln does not show up until after the Battle of the Tower and Dalinar's confrontation against Sadeas. We don't know the exact amount of time between the events, so it could be totally possible. So, even if he were to be recovering in the bridge four quarters, the timeline would work for him to be lost in the exodus of bridgemen to Dalinar's camp. Then later assumed he was one of the men who took the purse and freedom. I get that it's a long series of events, that are obviously unclear and flimsy, at best. So, it's obviously true. I find your lack of faith disturbing. You can take my nonsense to the bank!

Sorry, I had to drudge this thing back up, I needed to add something to my Nohadon is alive theory. During Teft's recitation of the First Ideal to Kaladin and his explanation of the "Immortal Words" I think is what he calls them, he explains. "Some King came up with them, he had his wife write them in a book or something." Then during an argument with Elokar, Dalinar defends "The Way of Kings" by saying, "They [The Lost Radiants] didn't write it! They found meaning in it and used it to found their orders!" Once again, as always, these are paraphrasing but they hold to the meaning even if not exact. Which tells me two things. The Way of Kings (if our narrators are reliable) was written by Nohadon and that book was the foundation for the Ideals that lead to the oaths of the KR. If those statements are both true. Then in order to be a KR himself, who as was suggested earlier, wrote the book at the end of his life. He would have to have used his teachings to lead to the founding of the KR prior to his writings. As he mentions in Dalinar's vision that he wished all spren could be as discerning as Honor Spren and specifically mentions Surgebinding. Those are suspect events, if in the same vision he said that writing a book would be a stupid thing to do. It was a time for the sword, not the pen. As 9/10ths of the country/world was dead at this point and he called it a Desolation by name. I think that Nohadon forged the Oathpact with his most trusted friends and family. He used his nature to "unite them" (them being the orders of the KR and possibly the world) and then forge a pact with Honor or The Stormfather, that would allow them to prevent this or mitigate the events from happening in the future. Meaning that Jezrien is Nohadon. Which Dalinar states Nohadon is his Holy Name and the other name Bejeridan? isn't his real name either. Which, now thinking about it and looking at it, could definitely be the Alethi version of "latinisation" of a name. Either way, I still hold to this theory. I may be dead wrong but I'm still not seeing anything that makes me think it's not at least somewhat viable.

The first person Kaladin saves, I think, after he starts rescuing wounded bridgemen. Has the same description as Taln does at the end of WoK. Dark Skinned, without a hint of an accent. Strong but not at all Taln like in what he says. So, maybe this is where our mysterious snatched body comes from, who was later Willshaped or some such into thinking he's a Herald of the Almighty. We don't know his previous history. So he might have been trained to look imposing and catch darts from the air. Which is why his body does it instinctively. I just find it odd that a man who fits the description is found by Kaladin and he notices these same traits at all. It's the whole, "As a filmmaker, I'm going to zoom in on this person's face. right? But why would I do that? Is this just for some odd context or is this going to be important later? Is it important now but you won't know until after other information is revealed?" It's basically game theory in action. I know that you know, that I know that you know. That we BOTH know.. I farted... but does SHE know? *As you discreetly look over, she forces eye contact with you while shaking her head in the affirmative and holding her nose*

That is an amazing idea. You just made me think about a game like Dragon Age: Origins. I don't know how similar it is to Inquisition, since I haven't played it, but in the original you have so many starting options. In the SA game, you could pick a starting city and race. Then a general class, that will lead to your order based on initial decisions you make. Sorta like a telltale game. Except the fun would be in the action. I would want a Devil May Cry style for certain classes like Edgedancers and Windrunners. Then a more creep-till-you-sleep genre with the Willshapers and Lightweavers. Your "I HIT HARD!" classes would probably be Dustbringers, Stonewards, and Skybreakers. One being the magic version the other being the melee/phsyical. The third being their hybrid or mage, rogue, and warrior, something like that. Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, and Bondsmiths would probably all be support NPCs in my mind. As they have a more involved power set. You get information about plot points from the Truthwatchers, then get taken where you want to go by the Elsecallers. I don't know why but I feel like the Bondsmiths are stuck in their castle. They don't get out much. It's because of a line that says "There were never more than three Bondsmiths in service to Urithiru." or something like that. So, they could bind your wounds and be your 'level up' NPC. Then add "The Thrill" in to the game with more sinister players, Voidbinding for "Renegade" style players. The Pure Lake Fish that could be a mini-game/sidequest that aids you in someway. The Fabrials that are capable of bringing back party members from the dead or used to make flashlights or just to stay warm in the upper atmosphere on a long flight. A Quadrillion things could be done with the crafting system. The game might be better suited as an MMO or Elder Scrolls'esq. Where each game or expansion opens up the world further. Something that does justice to the size and scale of Brandon's books and that could possibly be a gateway to make future Cosmere games. Ones where Worldhopping could take place. Imagine playing an SA game to max level then missile-maning your way to Skadriel and fighting a Mistborn. Maybe see what the color's bright rays look like on the face of the God-King. That seems like a fun afternoon, does it not? If anyone's series was made to set up an MMORPG, it is Brandon Sanderson's. It is so perfect that it hurts me. Because no one will probably see its potential and who have the power to make it anyway.

I like it!

You just made my day! Is this OC or did you find it somewhere?

I keep thinking about how amazing it would be to play as a KR in a SA based game. You can choose your order and the story would be awesome to play through too. As you see spren around people during NPC conversations. You'd be able to fly and bind things as a Windrunner. Be stealthy and subtle as a Lightweaver, but also able to soulcast objects into different useful things. (But not sticks, NEVER sticks!) Unlocking each new power with an oath or condition from your bonded spren. I would love to see it, but unfortunately I don't think anyone would make it. We can get the video game companies to bring Sanderson in on a pre-existing game series like "Infinity Blade" but to use his works to make a new franchise doesn't seem likely. As it would be a 'gamble' to not use the existing class structure in a fantasy game. If you can't be a rogue or a warrior, you're out! Just imagine though, you're up against it and, finally, you learn the "Shardblade" ability. You can now mow through your enemies without regard! Uh, Oh, what's that? Shardplate? Ya'll done messed up! Consequences will never be the same! Watch as your gravitation surge pushes back Parshindi and Voidbringer ranged attacks. Fight a horde of "The Enemies" minions, until eventually you have to go to Braize to eviscerate the hate based shard, himself! It would truly be epic. I would buy a current gen console just to play it. If it didn't come out on PC. Someone, make this happen...like yesterday! Edited for spelling, not that I made it perfect.

So, what you all are saying is that my theory should be considered factual. I am dead right and all my points hold up under scrutiny. Thanks! Sarcasm hurts me more than it does you.

Fine then, be that way! Just ruin my ideas with your..."facts"! ...stupid internet... won't let me have any fun....I wonder if anyone can read this. No, seriously, thanks. I really liked this idea but it's turning out to be a failed thought experiment. Which was why I posted it here. If it's wrong it's wrong. I need eyes besides mine, meaning people outside of my mind, to tell me the things I'm missing. So, really, thank you. You're right, we do know the names of each surge and which order gets what. What we've not learned is what each specific surge does. There hasn't been any Skybreaker use their non-gravitation surge where we can see yet. (or their gravitation surge for that matter. We're just assuming they're the same.) At least not one that we have noticed anyway. I don't think we've seen the majority of the surges in action. That's what I am referring to. Not the name but the action. Honestly, that's the same theory I had as part of this theory. That Szeth had Naln's blade, who was letting Szeth use it because of the work he was doing. Then, if he ever wanted it back, he would just summon it. Though, to hear Brandon say that you can't (or at least couldn't before someone added a gem stone I assume) bond an Honorblade. I don't know how that will work. I never got the impression that the man Jasnah overheard was one of the Heralds. I can see Jez being the drunk especially after the comment "...if he ever stops drooling." From Naln, in the Lift interlude. I was in one of the threads talking about that very topic recently. I am on board for it. Since it really is just speculation. (Just as my theory clearly is.) I wasn't thinking about it in terms of my idea. Thanks for the insight though. You make good points. As far as "begs the question" I don't live in the time period you're referring to. I have only ever heard it used in the way in which I used it. As in "This question is begging to be asked." I didn't mean to say "asks the question" in my opinion that would not have made any sense in context. You and everyone else who read it knew the exact meaning of what I said. Which, is how words work. We use symbols and sounds to convey a predetermined set of representations we call "words". We connect different words to different meanings and concepts. Then combine those into phrases that sometimes change over the years. Whether it's through misunderstandings, misuse, or sometimes even through sarcasm and hyperbole. Having a different culture enter the area, who might connect similar sounding words with words in their own langue, could affect how we talk. Etymology is really interesting. It's like when someone is starting to fail at a task, I have heard, "Man, he's 'floundering'!" when the original word was "Foundering" which is an equestrian term for having weak hooves and feet caused by some illness. Does it distract me when I hear it as 'flounder'? Sure, sometimes. Am I pedantic enough to say something about it? Nope, because I knew exactly what they meant and just because it's not the prescribed way of saying something. It certainly doesn't mean they're wrong. Which means the words worked exactly the intended way. To criticize that would only be to try and make myself either sound smarter or to make that person look dumb. Neither of which are polite things... so I will continue to use 'begs the question" just as I did here. I'll come back and let you know if someone fails to understand the meaning.

From Stromlight.wikia.com - "Adhesion -The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. This is the Surge used to perform Full Lashings, binding an object onto another; used by Windrunners and Bondsmiths." See, it clearly states you're correct man, get your facts together before shooting me down! I mean, come on... wait... /sigh, crap... Since we DO NOT KNOW the exact ability of the Skybreakers yet. I am going to hold out hope that my theory "might" be true still. Though with much less weight and certainty as I did before. I don't specifically remember a "Full Lashing" form Szeth, but I know he states what they are, which is pretty weird for him to do, if it isn't a power he possess. Unless, my theory is correct and he states it as just something he was taught during training with the blade and it's a red herring, But... in all likelihood, you're just right about this and I extrapolated a lot of ideas from a single sentence. Though, it still begs the question, who was this dude's "lord"? The way he speaks, it really feels like he is referring to Szeth and the blade he has as his "Lord's". Does that mean he is a pawn of Jezrian? The supposed drunk at the "Treaty Signing Celebration?" If that's the case and they came with Naln, I fear two extremely powerful Heralds working together, to prevent the reforming of the Knights Radiant, by going as far as to hunt them down and kill them, is a bad time for our intrepid heroes. During the Kal v Szeth fight the only time it's mentioned is when Szeth says, "What are you?" and Kaladin replies, "Windrunner, same as you!" (An assumption based on what Kaladin sees Szeth doing.) Syl, when explaining what she "thinks' Szeth's sword is says, "I think this is one of the Honorblades. Given to mankind by the Almighty. With it, someone can do what you do but without the...checks. Take care of it, this is a treasure." (This is a paraphrase to be sure, but the gist is absolutely on par.) In my theory it explains why the blade does what it does. We are told in the WoK prologue that Honorblades disappear when their wielder dies. A WoB says they can't be "bonded" but they can be "given" to others. Almost like the owner has to will the sword to be posesed by someone other than themselves. Like when a Shardblade is recalled in reverse or someone may pick up and use the sword as long as the "owner" doesn't object or something more nebulous than that. Thanks, both of you, for taking the time to read and respond. I listen to the audio books for this story on repeat daily. It is a really good way to pass the time at work and it helps me sleep to have a story to engage my mind so I don't let my thoughts run wild. So, I know the books better than I probably should. So, when I hear a little passed over phrase that you wouldn't notice until you're on your 36th read through, I try to extrapolate what I can from it. Then, if I feel there aren't any holes I'm noticing in it. I post it here. So, hopefully it will be vetted by those who see the story differently than I do and can shed further light on it. It is nice to have this community here to respectfully disagree with me, without resorting to immaturity. So, thanks again, and sorry about the length of my original post and replies.

(I searched and read through some topics a bit to see if this was discussed but couldn't find one. If I am mistaken, please let me know. I don't want to steal credit for anything.) Okay, the main reason I think this, is because of the WoR Prologue. While Jasnah is walking through the Palace, she sees two goons and Darkness. As she describes the scar on his cheek. Before she see's him though, she hears one of the guys with him talking to the other, who says, "I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it" To which Jasnah thinks, [....They were ambassadors from the West. Including the Azish man with the white scar on his cheek....] We have been told in a WoB that one of the Heralds came back for their Honor Blade and they have a total of seven. (I think that means left in Shinovar. Taln's, Szeth's, the one who came back for theirs. This isn't expressly stated but it is likely.) So, the rest of the Heralds forsook their Honor blades to hear Syl tell it, they are less powerful than the Nahal bond. They required more Stormlight to perform their tasks and at least one order's spren can change their shape, plus likely form Shardplate. Those are some pretty outstanding perks, when you think about it. Which means that if the, once god-like, Herald were forced to make a choice between remaining as some ordinary, possibly returned to the mortal coil, and near useless human or regaining the power from their Honorblade. The one they gave up after the shattering of the Oathpact. They would go back and grab up their sword, with the quicky-quick. I don't honestly have much proof of this but I think it might have been Jezrien that went back. Which might explain his drinking and him grabbing it back up might have caused the "Heralding" of the Desolation. (This theory is obviously contingent on Szeth having the Skybreaker Sword and information from a WoB that states the Heralds leaving Damnation is, at least part of, the catalyst for a Desolation. If memory serves mind you.) Which I conclude Jez did in order to take the burden off of Taln. During the WoK prologue Jez is said to still seem kingly and regal even after all this time. (I have a head-canon that Jez is actually Nohadon but I will save you all from that one, for now.) and I have a feeling that Taln wouldn't sit through 4,500 years of torture, just to give up the ghost at some random point. I mean, just think about it. If you can make it that long, you're kinda good forever. What's gonna change or happen after all that time that hasn't happened already a few hundred times. Plus your mind would have to be so disconnected from reality by that point that you're not even registering the pain and torture. Hence his bat-poop-insane behavior in WoR, he doesn't honestly even know what's in his head and what's being said out loud. That is a pretty good sign he has completely broken his mind off from his body. Just a theory mind you but it makes sense to me. Nahl doesn't have his Honorblade anymore. So the quote given by his henchman really points at Szeth holding the blade for the Skybreaker's power set. We know that they share a surge with Windrunners. In the case of Shallan and Jasnah's shared power, transformation, they can both enter Shadesmar and soulcast. Not in the exact same way or to the exact same degree but the similarity is such that nothing Szeth does would be impossible for a person manipulating the "Gravitation" surge. Who said the two orders shared power had to have a different effect? I know the Skybreakers have a surge the windrunners do not and vice versa. It isn't clear if there are any things that Szeth and Kaladin do differently, in regards to their surgebinding abilities. I know Kaladin uses that little 'glownut'™ fall breaking method around three or so times yet we have never seen Szeth use it. To be clear, I'm talking about when Kal falls and shoots out a donut of stormlight to break his fall. Like in WoK when he cuts the rope after Syl's request and then again in WoR after his conversation with Syl where she tells him to fly out of the cavern and show the world his what he can do. It's right after he learns to use the lashing to change orientation. (Full lashing? I really don't think it's reverse... damnation it. I can't remember and this is just getting out of hand in it's length. So I should just shut up, or google the God forsaken thing and scrap all this text.... yeah, I'm not going to do that...thank you so much for reading all this.)

Thank you all for your replies. I had a touch of computer problems and just now got back on, to 249 replies. :s I hadn't heard the theory that the drunkard who says, "Have you seen me?" was ole Jez. That's really interesting. I had thought during one of my first read-throughs that Nale was talking about the new Prime, like some of you did. Though, the way he says it seems to point at referencing the Herald. I mean he still very well could be talking about the Prime, but we don't see the kid drooling anywhere, but that could be a cut at his youth. Like calling him a baby. I just feel the more I look at it, and even with the preceding lines as context, that it is about Jezrien. So, if that's true about him being the drunkard, then that is awesome, thank you all so very much for enlightening me to this theory.

I keep thinking that she will become one. She seems to have a knack for manipulation. She definitely fits the love of "novelty" with her interest in fabrials. She talks about practicing looks that create certain emotions. She wears Dalinar down to fall for her again. Something that is easier said than done, with his overly stubborn personality. Everything about her screams "Willshaper" to me. Am I the only one who thinks this?

See, this is why I think that Odium used part of himself to shatter Honor. Hence his reputation as "The Broken One". I don't know that we have specifically seen any spren of Cultivation. That may be why her side of Roshar is so much more lush. She is whole and so is able to properly watch over her lands. Honor may have even used his and Cultivation's future sight to determine that by his shattering he would create a force that was able to withstand his enemy. Though, that wouldn't make sense would it? Without both being shattered (in my theory) there wouldn't be any voidbringers to fight. If they are infact only bonded Listeners. Also, he states that he was surprised by the coming of the KR. So, it's possible he was surprised to see them while using his future sight. Though that doesn't seem like what he meant... well hrmm. I guess I just argued myself out of that one.

Granted, but you forget everything everyone else says. I wish I would automatically know any language. As soon as I hear it spoken, I am fluent in it.

“Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.”. I thought it was a way of poking at the idea that he is said to be the Stormfather. That the "Drooling" was the storm's rain. I don't know though. It could mean that he is in a corner somewhere catatonic. Maybe even in the same place as Taln was. Anyone have any other ideas. If it wasn't coming from one of the Heralds I don't think it would be worth looking into it.

Granted, but only you can see your constructs. I wish I was a little bit taller, I wish I was a baller...

I think from the subtext, it's clear that Honor is NOT alive. Syl says outright that she is the little part of a god. That god is Honor. The spren are required for the KR to bond a spren and have surgebindings. The Herald who speaks in the Epilogue is citing both Dustbringer and Surgebinders as things that exist. So, I would find it inconsolable that both Honor and Spren exist simultaneously.

In WoR Someone (I want to say Kaladin) muses at Szeth's blade, "He had a shard blade. One without markings on it, that was supposed to be rare, wasn't it?" Wouldn't that imply that the Honor Blades and what the Heralds put down in the Prelude are not the same swords?

Granted, but you can only think of mildly interesting things for them to do. I wish for enough magical prowess to have my most immediate desire manifest.