Dros

This could get pretty gruesome if you have to burn spren to get some use out of 'em.

Also, those are flying creatures...I don't recall anything mentioning creatures that fly in TWoK.

So I haven't read through everything posted here, but I couldn't find a good thread that discussed the "dragons" on the inside cover.

The link to the image I'm referring to is here.

I've seen it pointed out a few times, but most people are interested in the symbols combining to form the orders of the KR, and the faces on the border representing the Heralds, but what about the dragons?

I can't be sure, but it looks like the claws are holding one of the Ideals, but those claws look somewhat crustacean in origin, maybe this relates to the great shells?

The prelude mentions the Dustbringers, could those be dragons?

The quote:

We also don't know what Greatshells pupate into, although there has been speculation, some say Thunderclasts, but what about how other creature's pupation works (I'm thinking caterpillars to butterflies, and going from a land creature to one that flies). What if a Greatshell pupates into a dragon, or dragon-like creature?

Also the gemhearts are used in soulcasting, which we know can turn one substance from one into the other. Could it be that the greatshells rise from the chasms, expose their gemheart to stormlight (thereby infusing them), and utilizing Shadesmar to change their body from one substance to another? (This might support the Thunderclast theory, since their limbs are "granite" but greatshells aren't made of stone.

Very rampant speculation on my part, and probably a repeat from some other thread, but I can't be the only one who thinks the background image looks like a pair of dragons with claws that happen to look like crustacean claws. (It even looks like there is a tail for each 'dragon'

JW

Well slap me stupid! I really had absolutely no clue what the images were behind the symbols. My best guess was it was some dude in a helmet.

I see...this just opened up a whole new world of completely unsupported theories for me.

Well at least we know it must be the intelligent dragon type and not just a very dangerous, but not very bright animal type dragon.

This is the best that we have on dissent about which spren are honorspren.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

Note that the spren are not the ones disagreeing. I hope this helps

Whoa, wait...it was my understanding the spren were splinters of Honor. If some of the spren are of Cultivation, does that mean Cultivation has been splintered too?

I don't think Hoid wants to get involved to the degree of killing/spiriting away people. He seems most comfortable simply guiding and informing people. I still don't have any idea what happened to Gaz, but it seems clear that this is what Brandon was referring to when he mentioned an "Asmodean's death"-type mystery. Later when we have all the facts we can look at it and say "Oh, that's reasonable." Note: This doesn't necessarily meant that Gaz is dead.

I don't know, man. Hoid's talking about shaking the pillar of the heavens with "our war here" in the epigraphs. He might mean that metaphorically, but he seems like he wants to start a fight. So I think he might be more than willing to take lives to see that his agenda is fulfilled. Why would someone like Gaz matter to someone like Hoid who witnessed the Shattering of Andolasium?

Hmm... you are basically quoting almost every single major character. I can live with Kaladin and Dalinar and maybe Adolin, but I think it would be a very boring story if all of them became radiants.

We've seen only a small part of the world so far and there are quite a few books to go. I think he has plenty of room to add a plethora of interesting groups and main characters within those groups.

However:

From reading the interviews with Brandon, I got the feeling this series was more about the struggles of the Heralds. If the Heralds created the Radiant Orders, it might follow that the new Radiants will be used to describe the Heralds and their exploits. So, it could be that the reason he has used the characters he has is because they are destined to be Radiants.

But would Cusicesh have been around before Honor splintered? I thought the spren were a result of that? Or is he different?

Looking at Brandon's quote cited above:

One of the Shards from Roshar is Cultivation.

and then taking into account another one:

Odium is not native to Roshar.

...leads me to believe there were/are three Shards besides Odium on Roshar. It's possible Cultivation's dead and the other Shard has fled, and that's why Odium feels confident in physically locating his essence on Roshar and bringing on the Final Desolation. He doesn't think there's anyone with significant authority and power left to oppose him.

Good eye!

It might follow that each sphere in Shadesmar represents a corresponding person or thing in the physical realm. What the sphere actually holds might be a bigger Cosmere question, as well.

But he is an outcast from his peoples. Even if his honor compels him, if he has those feelings for Shinovar, on what grounds do his people have to believe him, a Truthless. The very name implies he is not to be trusted.

I imagine great epics are made of such struggles, eh?

I always imagined the Oathstone as being similar to the black spheres in shadesmar.

This being Roshar, there would have to be ten . I think Telcontar's post provides the real answer.

As for what the Shin believe, it seems that they are as rotating fastenered up as anyone else on that world. Apparently, the Stone Shamen deny the existence of Voidbringers. Another group, which Szeth must have been involved with and may have included his grandfather, very much believes in the Voidbringers.

The punishment of being Truthless doesn't just punish Szeth. It is an act of staggering irresponsibility toward the rest of the world. It provided a weapon of staggering power to people not morally equipped to use it well. In effect, it is like the Radiants dumping their Blades and Plate for anyone to pick up.

From the Prologue, p 13:

So, really, that makes the Herald's lie even worse. They're lying about a victory over something that doesn't even exist!

I'm just throwing it out there that it's not necessarily clear that what Szeth carries is a Shardblade or an Honorblade. He's definitely different than any character revealed in the book so far. However, I imagine it is quite irresponsible to just throw someone like Szeth, with his abilities, out into the world with one of the most powerful weapons to exist on Roshar. The Shin don't seem to be like that. We probably won't get many answers until Szeth's POV book, though.

I always assumed that the three shards on Roshar were odium, honor and cultivation.

Brandon has said Odium is not native to Roshar and many instances in the book refer to the fact that "Odium is coming", not he's coming back.

Thinking about how a Shard kills another Shard probably shouldn't be thought of in the physical sense as how a man kills another man, or how Greek gods battled with the Titans. After all, they have no physical bodies and their "essence" if you will is not really understood and maybe it's impossible for humans to understand it (anyone who has read HP Lovecraft might have an idea of what I mean). It's quite possible a Shard must be killed in the Cognitive or Spiritual realm. Odium, whatever he might be as we could understand it, may not have had to come directly to Roshar physically to kill Honor.

When Honor said he should have known Odium would come for him, maybe there was long running fued between the two completely separate from Roshar's struggles against the Voidbringers.

I like the thought of Sacrifice being the third Shard who has fled. It really would help explain "the Old Magic" thing.

If the Shin believed the Heralds lied about the Victory over the Voidbringers and the Shin had found the Honorblades, it might not be too much of a stretch to believe being named Truthless damns a man to carrying one of the Blades of the biggest liars in history. Is it ever mentioned how many Truthless are out there?

I thought the whole point about the Parshedi bringing more soldiers to match the increase of Alethi soldiers was to show that the Parshendi has more than enough soldiers to overwhelm their opponents through sheer numbers, but they choose not to. Presumably to be "honorable" or for some other reason in which we aren't privvy.

I have thought, since finding out that Honor was Splintered, that the Broken One refered to him...

I'm starting to explore that thought too. Couple things that seem hard to rectify though. The Face in the Storm says ODIUM REIGNS, which seems to say that Odium is in charge. However before that he says Odium is coming. How does he reign if he isn't even there yet?

Also, the KR in Dalinar's vision says "Three Gods" as a curse. It would seem strange for the KRs who are fighting Odium to refer to him as a god. People refer to the Odium as the "Enemy"...not a very worshipful term for a god.

It is said that three of sixteen ruled, now the Broken One reigns. It seems strange to me that Honor is referred to as the Almighty and the other two Shards are basically forgotten. Even after Honor is splintered, he is still worshipped as the Almighty. Some time between Dalinar's vision and present day Roshar, the other two Shards fall from people's minds and Honor is singled out as the Almighty.

Does that mean he is reigning as a Broken One? I have no idea, but there's an argument to be made for it.

A potential explanation for the variety of species is that Roshar is a planet of immigrants from other worlds. Ooh, maybe Odium likes to drive people from different worlds together to force conflict...

I like that theory. The people of Roshar live in relatively close proximity and are not separated by features that cannot be crossed---so why aren't the distinct features of the races more watered down? They are all located on one continent.

Maybe there's three Shards on Roshar because those Shards decided to try and stick together against Odium, who had destroyed their homeworlds or at least was threatening to destroy them. So they were forced to find security and shelter for their populations elsewhere--or something like that. (This is assumiong Odium wasn't one of the original three)

Or maybe Roshar is just a chosen battlefield. Shards show up, create a race and let 'em fight it out with their enemy Shard's population. But maybe it got out of hand...some Shard's got whacked and now the Shard's chosen populations are stranded.

Welcome to the boards! Don't worry about disagreeing; it would be a preety boring forum if everyone agreed on everything.

First of all the fact that the Parshendi shard bearer was looking at Dalinar's face could have a much more plausable reason. Dalinar was there when the Parshendi were discovered so it isn't hard to believe that some of them would remember his face. Also the fact that in a Shallan POV Jasnah tells her that Gavilar saw a Parshendi thrust his hand out as if to summon a shard blade. It could that same shard bearer who recongises Dalinar because he saw Dalinar during those first days or recognised him through his resembelance to Gavilar. As for the speaking Alethi -come on- the Parshendi were talking Alethi within the first few days of their meeting with the Gavilar's party.

That's definitely a possibility.

For this we must go back to Kalak POV he saw red, orange and violet blood on the battle field after the desolation. I am pretty sure that Parshendi blood is orange and assuming that also includes parshmen, their blood was there in the aftermath of the desolation but Kalak doesn't see any Parshendi or Parshmen.

Just because Kalak saw orange blood doesn't mean the Parshendi fought as Voidbringers. He saw red blood too and we know humans fought against the Voidbringers. I think the observation was more about the blood spilled on all sides, not just their enemies. Also, Kalak is looking over only a small part of one battlefield, it's entirely plausible that Parshendi weren't around at the time in the areas Kalak observed. They don't disturb their dead, so there would be little reason for them to remain there.

"Gavilar was definitely not the same type of man that Dalinar is and I would argue about them even being that similar. They both may have followed the Way of Kings but they were very different people before coming to the book and so are going to learn from it different.

As noted by Honor cultivation is more skilled at looking into the future. She might have seen some character flaw in Gavilar that would have doomed them all. Or maybe the war with the Parshendi was necessary. We really have to little to go on to be sure.

But I really don't think that we can discount this theory on the grounds that Gavilar and Dalinar were to similar."

Hmm...makes sense, I'll defer to that argument.

"Going off this has Brandon ever said if Odium was one of the three referenced in that quote? Or is that just the common assumption."

There was a reference to this somewhere before, the idea that maybe there were three shards on Roshar that weren't Odium and he hasn't arrived yet to Roshar. It's an interesting thought, but if Odium isn't on Roshar, how did he kill Honor? That brings up a lot of possibilities. One completely unsupported theory could be the Oathpact was between the three Shards opposing the Voidbringers and their master and Odium had nothing to do with it.

probably ranges due to experience with the stuff. I'd guess a minimum of 1-2 minutes and not much more than 15.

Really? I would think it would take quite a while. How long did it take for Szeth to get to Gavilar's chamber once they knew he meant business? A couple minutes?

If you're right, there's nothing to what I'm thinking--but let's say it takes about 25-30 minutes (which is what it took knights back in the day). That would mean he already had it on and was ready for the assasination attempt.

Or--it does only take a couple minutes, and the Parshendi wanted to give time to Gavilar to put the armor on for whatever reason.

In any event, I agree--Gavilar was on the same track that Dalinar is on now. Why slow 'em down if they wanted the Way of Kings to be adopted in Alethi society?

Do we know how long it takes to get Shardplate armor on?

Interesting fact: in Japanese philosophy there are five elements that are the basis of the universe.

The five elements are, in ascending order of power, Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void.

It's called Ku.

Kū is of particular importance as the highest of the elements. In martial arts, particularly in fictional tales where the fighting discipline is blended with magic or the occult, one often invokes the power of the Void to connect to the quintessential creative energy of the world. A warrior properly attuned to the Void can sense their surroundings and act without thinking, and without using their physical senses.

The five elements are also heavily represented in japanese architecture.

That's really interesting. I'll have to think on that for a little while, but if true, a lot of things would make more sense.