Dros

Guess you're right. He used the Blade to cut the rock, but it wasn't using the Blade in that manner that gave him a particular feeling of usefulness. Only the labor itself.

Dalinar does bring up a good question, though, doesn't he? Wars will always advance technology toward destruction, but after the war is through, a civilization usually uses such technology for other pursuits as well. It doesn't seem so, on Roshar...unless the answers are contained in Urithiru and its demise.

Well we basically agree here. I think we both think that the physical aspect of the power is tied to the Shardworld, which makes sense. However the physical part isn't always the focus. I'm curious, what do you think decides what powers are granted, and whether the focus is physical, cognitive, or possibly spiritual, if its not the Shardworld? We know its not the Shard that does it, they just provide the fuel, and the mechanism for how the power is accessed, because of their intent. Do you have any other ideas?

Didn't BS say magic systems were human's interpretation of the Power of Creation as "funnelled" through the Shards? So perhaps the focus of a particular planet was not the Shard's choice, but just how human's on that particular planet learned how to use the Power of Creation.

..."whores, gambling, drink"...

I believe our ideas of tainted are very different. I call these things "normal".

But I agree with your point.

Now that UNC won, I'm able to think a little more clearly and I just thought of something related to the above post.

The KRs in Dalinar's Recreance vision had glyphs on their armor, which isn't on existing Plate. There have also only been two KR Orders we've seen in combat and only two. The guy writing about the fire spren had an effect on the spren just describing it. Now, take a look at the Ishi bust along the map of Roshar. I believe he's the old, bald guy. Definitely doesn't look like a fighter and Jezrien referred to Ishi's knowledge on the Oathpact as if he was more of a scholar.

Could writing powerful glyphs that bind or improve things be one of the KR Surges? I think it's quite possible (most likely probable) not all the KR orders have something to do with fighting on the front lines. Is it possible the Herald's Blades (and possibly all Shardblades) have many different uses beyond warfare? Maybe Syl despises Dalniar's blade because it's been used for something it wasn't made to do for so long and really doesn't hate the existence of the Blade per se. It's the taint she hates.

Also, doesn't anyone find it strange one has to wait ten seconds for the Blade to appear. In combat, sometimes ten seconds might as well be ten hours. And if you drop it you're screwed? In a messy environment like combat, dropping things is just part of life...or death. Maybe the ten seconds is a built in stop-gap to make the user think about what he's about to do and to make the Blade less attractive for destructive uses. Remember Dalinar's digging episode? Remember how he really felt like such labor was satisfying and how strange the whole set up was? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he used the Blade to dig and it never felt so right to him.

Concerning why the names changed. Maybe it was done on purpose? I'm totally blanking on the book title but when i was in middle school, i read a book (a trilogy actually) of a land where humans can become immortal, and it was done by them being recorded or something like that... It gets to a point where one of the characters purposely didn't let people paint pictures of him, and when they did, he had them do it with him wearing ridiculous clothes and have it look nothing like him. Not saying that the same thing is happening in with the Heralds, but maybe the person (possibly Shalash herself) destroying depictions of Shalash and the names getting different names change are connected?

That actually could make a tenuous connection to how spren become affixed when they are described in writing. Also, it is strange that Alethi men do not read or write and it's part of their culture to actively dissuade such things. I have a feeling that writing things down by certain men has some profound effects on Roshar.

So let me see if I have this right...the genetics of the people on each planet effects how they interpret a Shard's magic and that, in turn, along with the qualities inherent in the cognitive and spiritual realms of a planet, effects what is possible with that particular Shard's magic?

It would follow then that the blade itself is tied to one's cognitive aspect(would that be the right word for it?). So a tainted mind might taint the blade, not the other way around. Just throwing that out there.

And there it is

Oh well, it was quite a simple thought, I shouldn't be surprised someone had thought of it before.

As for Szeth and his Shardblade: he obviously hates the thing and thinks of it as evil. IIRC at one point he says, "Ten heartbets, come to me, you creation of Damnation." I'm starting to think there is definitely something terribly wrong or broken with the Shardblades and it's probably connected to the Recreance in some way.

I notice a lot of people are using "she" when referring to Cultivation. Has it been verified that the shardholder of Cultivation was/is a female?

So when the Radiants arrived in Shinovar (this is the part where my own idea hinges on the Radiants in Shinovar idea) they made a pledge to never take up Shardblades, a promise so they could remain pure. This promise to avoid Shardblades became a central part of Shin life. So during unknown events, Szeth ended up with his Shardblade and Surgebinding abilities. The Shin saw him as being a liar, breaking his oath, and thus the name Truthless. What does everyone think?

In one of Dalinar's visions he is invited to train with the Radiants in Urithiru. The Knight specifically mentions that fighting, whether against voidish creatures or other men, changes a man. The Knight said the Radiants could teach him how to protect himself from this effect. So I think the Radiants were already aware of the danger of what killing and battle can do to a man. However, you might be right that they finally figured out Odium's influence was much larger than they originally thought

-or-

...maybe they found out the Heralds had lied to them and abandoned them? (Just thought of that one.)

I doubt it's a statement from the Heralds. protectors usually don't speak that way. Howver, the Voidbringers are described as having ravaged skin as if it were burned horribly. Perhaps they are created through fire or perhaps they must go to a place in between Desolations that is full of fire and ash, just as the Heralds had to. They seem like pretty nasty creatures, as well, and a statement like that wouldn't seem out of place coming from creatures who have experienced tortured existences. They might be pretty pissed off and itching to make the people of Roshar experience what they have been subjected to for millenia on end.

As for the quote being specific to Shinovar? The quoted mentions a "mount" and there are many mountain ranges throughout Roshar. However, he does call it "the mount" indicating a specific mountaintop. If you can prove there is a mountain in Shinovar with specific importance, you might have a better case.

I don't know about a guy with a necktie, but there are definitely patterns there.

Weren't we told all the pictures and maps in WoK are in-world maps?

It seems this symbol is the common denominator in them. Perhaps someone has left behind some clues for future Rosharians to find for a specific purpose. "X" marks the spot.

Depends on what you're improving. I know we all have an idea of what our definitions of improvement are and they probably are things that we believe would make the world better through great works, but can't the opposite be improved? For example, couldn't Dr. Evil be made more evil, thereby improving the evilness of his nature? Couldn't someone improve their state of leisure by improving the laziness of their nature? Could weakness not be cultivated in men if there were no danger from enemies and no needs or wants unmet? Of course, the theory above would assume the definition of improvement for Honor and Cultivation would be the same as ours.

Actually this makes a lot of sense. We know that Odium left Roshar for a period of time, and that may have been the time when the Desolations ended. Following this, the Radiants "betrayed" the people, the Silver Kingdoms fell and petty wars swept the lands. This might have weakened Honor, and allowed Odium, when he returned, to dominate and kill him. So by causing imbalance with his absence, Odium ultimately won his stalemate with Honor.

Floowing this line of reasoning with pure speculation...Perhaps the Tranquiline Halls was a planet where only Cultivation and Honor were the Shards and it was a disaster. People were content, lazy and just all around didn't have the skills to keep the world running with efficiency or at all.

So they made an Oathpact with Odium to whip 'em into shape, brought in Voidbringers to chase them all to Odium's planet, Roshar, which was pretty hellish and difficult to survive in, to make people work harder and give them the will to make life better and more sustainable. But that turned out to be a pretty big mistake because Odium is a pretty bad dude, much stronger than Cultivation or Honor, and went off the reservation, killing Shards and making life a living hell for the people that were moved there. Maybe that's why Honor apologizes so much in his vision to Dalinar.

Just random thoughts

In a word, no. I can't write down that spren are 400 miles long and they suddenly become so. It must be something that is observed. The more accurate the observation, the more fixed the spren becomes.

Also, it doesn't apply to all spren- just the one you've observed.

Hmm...that made me think of something. It's been said in these forums that Sanderson bases some of his ideas on physics and what you describe above, if that's what you meant, is one of the strange aspects of quantum mechanics. Quantum particles seem to change depending on who is observing them.

Wouldn't use this source for a paper, but per Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics):

"In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on the phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. A commonplace example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire; this is difficult to do without letting out some of the air, thus changing the pressure. This effect can be observed in many domains of physics."

It is entirely possible that after she confessed, the other spren moved on, no longer attracted to her from her great secret.

If true, that would bring up some interesting questions, wouldn't it? If these spren are attracted to people with dark secrets, why is one attracted to Elhokar?

That explains a lot for me. Great and much needed post! I truly couldn't wrap my head around the spren issue. Couldn't stop from seeing a Tinkerbell character everytime I read about them.

Hoid was talking about Sigzil the Worldsinger

Ah, yes. Can we forget I mentioned Hoid's apprentice on this thread?

Edit:

Oh, and this:

A Spren is Stormlight Focused either through fabrial or intention/action/words.

Makes sense, but what about spren that accompany fire or some other innocuous item?

Scorpio and 678, I'll definitely concede spren are related to stormlight, but I still think stormlight is something Cultivation would develop to assist mankind. I agree that plate/blade definitely have to do with Odium, but I was thinking that the blades and plate itself was of Odium while the glyphs seen on the KR's plate from the visions was Honor's mark on them to protect the users from Odium's influence. However, again I could be totally wrong.

Honestly, for some reason I just don't get the spren, so I'm really in no position to question much about them.

One of Kaladin's bridgeman was a scholar and knew quite a bit about Stormlight, I thought. Of course, it could be he's wrong, but that's what I was basing it on. His name was Teft and his family apparently knew a lot about Stormlight, pg 918 WoK:

It was more than the Stormlight. Teft had only fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated.

It perfected.

Might as well say, IT CULTIVATED< eh?

When Hoid was walking away from Kaladin he told him to "take care of his apprentice" and I always thought that meant Teft for some reason. Could be I'm totally wrong on that score.

I like the theory, but I think Stormlight is the power/body of Cultivation and not really connected to spren. I realize the Highstorms trigger Dalinar's visions with Honor, but who's to say Cultivation isn't helping him out and giving out his "death letter" to mortals who haver the attributes Honor had previously identified to Cultivation. Honor's dead so maybe he needed Cultivation to accomplish it through the Highstorms.

EDIT: forgot to add that these visions are different, Kaladin never experiences them nor does any other character. Dalinar is more important than just being a KR, I think. Maybe he was identified or recruited by Honor/Cultivation as Vin was by Preservation? Just a thought.

Hear me out; many have always assumed that Stormlight was made from Honor, but Stormlight makes you better, it doesn't grant you abilities or bind you in any way...that's exactly what cultivate means: to foster the growth of or improve through care, study and labor. I think it would be a mistake to think Cultivation only has to do with plantlife or something like that, I mean, a sliver like the Lord Ruler could cul;tivate plantlife and move planets, surely a Shard would be stronger than that...unless of course, it was inhibited in some way like Ruin and Preservation.

It is said by Hoid's old apprentice in WoK (I can't remember where it is or the guy's name atm, but I'll keep looking) that Stormlight enhances or improves abilities one already has, but it grants no knowledge not known prior to its use. It makes Kaladin faster, stronger and lighter, but his ability with the spear is already there.

Also, Syl has no problem with Kaladin's use of it, but she really hates the Shardblade.

I wonder why we have only seen those two.

Is it tied to the statement Honor made in Daliner's Recreance vision? Honor states something like, "They were the first, and they were also the last." On its face, it seems contradictory, unless he means they were the first to form into KR Orders and the last to lay down their plate and blades. If that is so, it seems those two Orders are special in some way.

While on salvage duty Kaladin finds ornamented knife/sword from a dead parshendi. The ornamentations on it are herald glyphs (no refference to page, sorry), and it striked me as a detail than puts the theory that parshendi are evil to rest.

If they really are of Odium why would they carve it on their weapons?

Trophy of war? I think you'd find legitimate arguments for and against the Parshendi as voidbringers and I imagine Sanderson likes it that way. I tend to think they're not Voidbringers because...well, because they've been around awhile, so where's that void they were supposed to bring? A few quotes about Voidbringers talk about the void and nothingness that follow Voidbringers, etc. Probably best to get into all that on a different thread, though

Creepily enough, if you removed the word 'black,' the first person I would think of is... Hoid.

I also thought of Hoid when I saw the black piper quote. He's obviously helping the good guys, but so was Joe Abercrombie's Bayaz, First of the Magi and that was quite a twist at the end. If anyone's read Abercrombie's "The Blade Itself" series, you'll know what I mean.

Mybe he dropped his wallet.