MistbornMathematician

I would strongly urge you to re-examine most, if not all, of what you have said. I cannot think of any reasonable justification for why you would say something like "Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin", which is highly perplexing, so I will assume it was for dramatic effect. I shall therefore re-cite this, as I am fairly certain that you did not see any post wherein it was quoted: This, first and foremost, strongly implies that Allomantically burning any invested metal draws power from the Investiture in the metal (if that Investiture is available, of course). A metalmind with a stored attribute becomes an invested metal. This does not change it to be a metal that has a different Allomantic effect, as if being Invested did indeed cause that metal to change its effect, then there would likely be no distinction between a metalmind with Investiture that the Allomancer can access and one with Investiture that they cannot. Instead, we see that a metal which contains Investiture which the Allomancer can harness (Investiture which, by either the metal's own properties or the method of Feruchemy that invested the metal, is storing a given attribute) uses that Investiture as "fuel" during the Compounding process. As such, unless you consider all of the Investiture stored in a metalmind to be entirely of Preservation (which you do seem to disagree with), we now have a strong implication that not all of the Investiture used during the Compounding process comes directly from Preservation. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, Feruchemy does not appear to be truly "end-neutral". I will now re-cite this: This hints at end-neutrality being something of a misnomer, and seems to imply that all of the Investiture which a Feruchemist inserts into a metalmind comes from their body or their energy. There is no "firm" quantification of an Investiture-to-energy formula, as per however we can observe what Investiture is generally capable of, compare it to what "raw" Investiture allowed Allomancers to do in TLM (sorry, but I do not have the book on me at this moment, so you will have to trust me that it occurred), and determine that turning Investiture into energy gives quite a lot of energy for just a little Investiture. Now, given this: we determine that a fully-filled metalmind is a highly invested object. As I have stated before, Feruchemy does not appear to respect the Cosmere's conservation laws, due to the fact that it seems that metalminds contain more Investiture than corresponds with the actual effect. As Feruchemy does not drain Investiture off of the soul or the body (which would of course need to be permanent so as not to create more Investiture from thin air), and as we have seen filled and almost-filled metalminds several times (including, if I am remembering correctly, several of Sazed's rings and the unkeyed gold bracelet that Wax receives) which were not filled with an incomprehensibly-large amount of the attribute, this strongly implies that a stored attribute does indeed take up quite a bit of Investiture. This Investiture, from the above WoB, is implied to come from entirely from energy (after all, it couldn't come from matter, as your mass would not permanently change after storing an attribute), but this makes very little sense when dealing with very low-energy attributes. Unless if things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, or other neurochemical attributes involve a shocking amount of energy in the Cosmere (as opposed to real life, where humans are incredibly energy efficient and our nerves, while generating a ton of voltage do not generate any amps), we essentially have two possibilities. Either the Investiture does come from inside the Feruchemist, or it does not. If it does, then the only reasonable assumption is that things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, and those other neurochemical attributes are in fact heavily invested. Taste, therefore, would be Investiture, and quite a bit of it. This seems, to me, to be unlikely. The alternative is that the Investiture comes from outside the Feruchemist, and exists as the means of of "encoding" the attribute into the metal. The most obvious comparison would be to how one can encode memories into Investiture. If we work under the assumption that the Feruchemist uses outside Investiture when they encode an attribute and releases that outside Investiture when they decode that attribute for use, this would indeed allow for the metalminds to contain more Investiture than a Feruchemist could pull out of it. This would also explain quite succinctly why an Allomancer, who would use both the encoding Investiture and the stored attribute as fuel, would obtain significantly more of that attribute from the Investiture in the metalmind alone, potentially not even requiring an outside source of Investiture. Now you might see why I think that the notion that Compounding gets all of its Investiture from Preservation is far from "explicitly obvious". Would you now agree? Unfortunately, as my schedule is somewhat crowded around this time of the year, I cannot properly respond to everything you have said at this time or all of the accusations you have made, but I will take a moment to address this: I, personally, do not see a need to provide the same source multiple times in a row or provide a source someone else has already provided, particularly when it was recent. Therefore, especially as time goes on and more sources enter the equation, I would rather not clutter up already-long posts with dozens of redundant sources. I will admit, though, that it did make your job of reading through all of the posts that much harder, and perhaps led to less-than-optimal understanding, so I apologize for my failure in that regard. Unfortunately, @alder24, I also do not currently have the time to respond with the detail or depth warranted, so for now I'll address only your final statement. The foundation of our disagreement is based upon those "contradictions" -- a true contradiction, a disproof, is something rigorous. We have been discussing rigor for some time now, which is why I've tried desperately to establish definitions and such. Agreeing to disagree is something for, well, disagreements. Such a disagreement is something like the effects of Lerasium alloys. You suggest that Lerasium-God Metal alloys grant an invested art of the Shard whose metal was alloyed with Lerasium, with the invested art in particular being "chosen" via Connection. I suggest that Lerasium-God Metal alloys grant all invested arts of that Shard, and base metal alloys with that alloy would grant a specific one. Certainly, I may point out issues with your suggestion, and you have pointed out issues with mine, but I do not consider your suggestion to be contradicted and (as far as I am aware) you have not claimed that mine is either. You believe yours to be more likely, I believe mine to be more likely, and we can most certainly agree to disagree on that.

I think the best way to identify the difference is this: Allomancy, and other invested arts, require a direct and physical Connection to the Shard (or Aether) behind it. In general, this means that the user is Invested by that Shard's Investiture. In Hemalurgy and Bonding, this is not the case -- they require a metaphorical Connection to the Shard. The result may be something directly and physically Connected to the Shard in question, such as with Surgebinding, but the important thing to note here is that the Bonding is distinct from the Surgebinding and any similar bond will Invest the human/singer/chasmfiend/chull/etc in question. If Hemalurgy was, for example, a genetic thing like Feruchemy or Allomancy, and in order to make or properly use a Hemalurgic spike you needed to be Invested, then that would be a very significant difference that would make put it in the same category as Allomancy. If Allomancy was usable by anyone who swallowed metal anywhere, then it would be in the same category as Hemalurgy. Does that make a little more sense as to why I think there is such a fundamental difference between the two? And, unless drunkenbotanist is correct, an unchained Bondsmith ripping off a Connection from someone doesn't "invoke" Ruin. If he is, then any action involving forging a Bond would in fact invoke Honor. It does make for an interesting theory in and of itself, doesn't it? Which could be an excellent counterargument to your later suggestions of Shards manifesting new invested arts elsewhere. If that particular Ars Arcanum is correct (which, remember, it might not be) it would pose a convincing reason as to why the change to Hemalurgy on a Cosmere-wide level is indeed the natural consequence of Ruin's merger and was in no way caused by Harmony's mind or direct control. The difference between a "subconscious change that cannot be done consciously" and "a natural, involuntary consequence" is nonexistent when viewed externally, after all. That would be the Bonding part, not the Surgebinding. If that was enough evidence, then using Avair would be identical as far as "Intent" goes. And where does Cultivation show up? You didn't mention that part. Given that Ishar made the Radiants, who indisputably use an invested art of Honor, I do not know why you say his own powers were likely not from Honor. Moreover, wasn't his Bondsmithing from an Honorblade? And isn't it directly stated by the Stormfather that men abused the surges before Honor and Ishar formed the current system? It's possible all of that is wrong, but I wouldn't call that "likely" in the least. Neither of the WoBs you cite say that compounding draws power from Preservation -- did you copy the wrong thing? Moreover, by the second one, if metalminds are generally filled with Ruin's Investiture, as I claim is likely, it tracks that compounding would draw the power from Ruin. The main issue with all of that is that the math simply doesn't track. It would be something like saying you used the power of a nine-volt-battery to make a golf-ball sized clump of antimatter, or (if you do indeed drain the soul itself) using a nine-volt battery to charge another nine-volt battery up without the first nine-volt battery being permanently drained. We know from that WoB and others that the concept of being truly "end-neutral" isn't strictly accurate, despite what people in-universe think. Is it such a jump, then, to say that the math not working isn't a flaw with the magic system but is instead a clue? That WoB does not say that. Instead, it says that people with Hemalurgic spikes have their spiritwebs cracked open significantly more as long as they have the spike in them, and so the people with spikes are drastically more easy to speak to for both Sazed and Ruin before him. Bavadinium spikes blocking Sazed could either be a feature of the god metal itself or a function of all god metal Hemalurgic spikes -- we do not know nearly enough to say it is one or the other. "Lifebinding" is most likely to be Old Magic. See any of the WoBs where the magic systems on Roshar are listed, all of which disprove your theory to a resounding degree. Moreover, saying Ashyn's disease-based magic is a type of Old Magic is a very reasonable jump, given that they both share the positive-and-negative structure. The WoBs have gone back and forth on this, but last I saw he said some god metals could be burned by anyone, some couldn't, and their alloys are completely unknown. In fact, Atium itself might not be burnable by non-Allomancers in his current canon. I suppose that is accurate -- currently, there is nothing that we know of that firmly prevents, say, Preservation from coming up with some entirely unrelated invested art somewhere else. However, there is also nothing which you have cited so far that remotely prevents the limit from being true. The examples you list are all things which are entirely consistent with the theory, as I have stated above. Hence the "and leave the soul cracked" bit. We also know that Hemalurgy also takes significantly more Investiture than just the bit which is the Connection itself, while it may be reasonably assumed that Bondsmithing would not do this. Recall that Hemalurgy leaves the soul absolutely mangled, after all. Those gaps you admit to having are some distinct and significant issues with your theory. Being unable to account for those alloys, being unable to identify why Lerasium would be so unusual with its alloys, and needing to invent some hitherto-unseen "true" invested art of Autonomy (along with, I'd imagine, every other non-Preservation Shard, such as with Honor if you're not Connected to a surge) are not small flaws. It is not disproven, of course, but those flaws and gaps do make it far less likely. In other words, your theory has a number of inconsistencies, which (while not impossible) are of course negatives for any theory. Overall, I must confess to not understanding your overall, fundamental issue with this. Way back at the start, you said that your objection was due to WoBs which flat-out disproved the notion that Hemalurgy was not a true invested art. But, from the ones that you've cited, nothing comes close to actual proof -- at best, you have convincing arguments that it's unlikely. It's enough to make me question exactly what your definition of invested art is. That is why I am extremely interested as to how you would classify those twenty items I listed so long ago. If you would be so kind, could you please classify them for me? It would be incredibly helpful for my understanding of what you're trying to say.

On this we agree, but I do not think this has been sufficiently established. For what it's worth, it hasn't been proven that they aren't synonymous, but that's not the point of contention. As the WoB you cited below shows, people would absolutely disagree about their use of that term as a synonym. Notably, Khriss herself would disagree. In fact, the debate we're having right now is probably one that could happen in-universe, and potentially even has. And no direct example that Bonding as a whole is of Honor -- yet it makes a considerable amount of sense. The point is that he had more besides. Kelsier's comments after holding the power of Preservation contradict this notion that Rashek could not have understood Hemalurgy while holding the power of Preservation without Ruin. One might argue that the entirety of the illusion perpetuated upon Yumi was, in fact, a form of Lightweaving. However, this is unclear. I believe this was stated to be something of an unintentional side effect of the merger, but I could not find that WoB. I also could not find any WoB stating the opposite, that Harmony did it purposefully. Do you have a source you're going from? The first is why I'm beginning to think that Awakening, especially as it can be done with any kind of Investiture without turning it into Breaths, is of a similar genre to Hemalurgy and Bonding. However, I'm not sure why you think Surgebinding requires following Honor's and Cultivation's intent. Nowadays, you do generally have to form a Bond in order to Surgebind (whether with a Spren or with an Honorblade), but saying that Surgebinding itself somehow requires following Honor's or Cultivation's intent does seem to be more than a little bit of a stretch. If you were running around on Ashyn before all of the rules got put in place, breathing in Stormlight and setting things on fire, that doesn't seem to be nearly the same sort of similarity of Intent as running a spike through someone's heart or endowing an inanimate object with life. I have seen that suggested before, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as you suggest here. Allomancy's power is innately fueled by Preservation, but (to the best of my knowledge) we do not know that a Hemalurgically-granted Allomantic power would be innately fueled by Ruin. The first WoB you have is about Shards consciously and intentionally fueling invested arts beyond the "normal" amounts, such as Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy or, possibly, Ruin enhancing the Feruchemical stores of the Steel Inquisitors. It says that they are better at consciously fueling invested arts that are more Connected to them, with arts granted by Hemalurgy being innately more Connected to Ruin and thus easier for him to power. What we do know is that the Investiture in the spikes themselves is the Investiture found in souls, with that Investiture being ripped off of the soul and invested into the metal. We also know that Hemalurgy can "fool" a bond, meaning that there is no thematic reason why a Shard whose power naturally fuels a particular art wouldn't continue to do so. The second WoB you cite is very weird, and it has two notable oddities: the first is saying Lift creates Stormlight, not Lifelight, while the second is technically saying that compounding a metalmind draws power specifically from Ruin when it's Hemalurgically granted. I spent a fair bit trying to find some WoB that says that normal compounding specifically draws the additional power from Preservation, but I couldn't find one -- do you know if there is such a confirmation? If not, then perhaps burning Feruchemically-stored Investiture does indeed get that power from Ruin, which would be a strong sign of the relationship between the two. Energy, matter, and Investiture can be turned into each other, this is indeed true. However, this is not what is going on in Feruchemy. If I store, say, taste into a tinmind, I do not change in weight, nor do I change in energy. My soul is not being drained into this tinmind. So where does this Investiture come from? What am I storing in this tinmind and how am I getting it? And with weight, if I drain my weight into an ironmind, I think you're trying to say that this is matter being turned into Investiture, but when I restore my weight, there's still Investiture in this ironmind. From a physics perspective, I have done precisely zero work by standing still and putting all of my weight into a ironmind, so there's no energy to use either. It's not like my body has to put up the energy either -- Wax doesn't have to eat constantly every time he drains weight, and though he does get slightly weaker, some tasks (like climbing) are even easier when his weight is drained. In short, the Investiture in a metalmind most certainly does not come from your innate Investiture, any matter in your body, or any energy your body produces (at least not from all of the metals, I assume storing Investiture does what it says on the tin). It...is, at least to me. It would also be helpful for me, personally. Quite untrue. This is like saying that Allomancy requires no Investiture on the part of the user, it's using the Investiture in the metal. That...is not how it is portrayed at all. Hemalurgy fractures the soul, making the person with the spike more susceptible to shardic influence, among other mental effects. Ruin could talk to insane people quite well, but with a spike, they became even easier to communicate with. Kelsier could do the exact same thing as a cognitive shadow, though to a far lesser extent. Preservation, meanwhile, could only listen. Lifebinding is entirely unconfirmed and potentially identical to the Old Magic. Also, notably, Ashyn's art is likely just the Old Magic, or what it became on that planet. This has two notable issues, in my opinion. First is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium alloy on, say, Roshar (which seems to be largely free of Autonomy's influence), it seems like nothing would happen. Second is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium-iron alloy on Dayside as opposed to a Trellium-Lerasium-steel alloy, it seems like the exact same thing would happen. Do you not believe that two-god-metal-one-base-metal compositions are real alloys, then? That is definitely an interesting way to think about it -- saying Hemalurgy isn't to Ruin as Bonding is to Honor, but splicing spiritwebs is instead. That is definitely possible, I'd say. Mainly, because Bondsmithing definitely doesn't seem to be able to do everything Hemalurgy can do, at least not normally -- just the one-sixteenth that has to do with Connection. Also, we have this which seems to imply that there are things there that they couldn't steal, though I believe Breaths can't be stolen by Hemalurgy (aside from Returned ones) so I suppose it could just be that. Personally, though, I think that Bondsmithing doesn't actually carve pieces off of souls. It can steal or force a Connection, including a Bond, but the result of doing so would likely not innately rip off Investiture and leave the soul cracked like Hemalurgy does. So I think it's more of the case that it's Honor's version, where it doesn't do such terrible damage and only works with Connection. Editing a spiritweb can be done by several invested arts, including Bondsmithing, but I think that Hemalurgy's version of this is the raw, fundamental, and "true" way of doing so. I do not believe that Ruin's Investiture is directly involved in Hemalurgy -- the Investiture in a spike comes directly from the afflicted person's soul, which is primarily composed of Investiture, and some WoBs, like the one you cited, seem to imply that Hemalurgy's existence is almost entirely divorced from Ruin's. The more pressing difference is with this I almost think it's kind of the opposite, in a way -- the ability to not use Investiture to do so does appear to be restricted to Hemalurgy. I find the best comparison here to be again Bonding, since you need no Investiture to Bond something, but every invested art that can force or mimic a Bond is more restricted and does indeed require Investiture to do so (except for Hemalurgy, you could say, but imo that doesn't technically force or mimic a Bond since it just moves it from one place to another without breaking it). Philosophically, I would say that there are these fundamental arcane systems to the Cosmere, each of which can be "hacked" by invested arts through use of Investiture, but can also be done entirely Investiture-free by using the proper Intent. I would wonder whether Yolish Lightweaving requires any internal Investiture, since if it doesn't (instead perhaps using ambient Investiture), it would be quite the striking vindication of the notion.

Kind of -- it's not so much of a chain of implications as three separate observations, that then begin a chain of implications. It's not that Hemalurgy isn't part of this system because Feruchemy is Ruin's invested art, it's that these three things appear to independently be true, and together they imply that Feruchemy is likely Ruin's real invested art. We have: We know every god metal and "god metal alloy" has a specific Allomantic effect and that these effects are unique. (Note that this does not necessarily imply that two god metals and a base metal actually count as a god metal alloy, as opposed to two god metals or a god metal and a base metal. That's big jump number one.) We also know that Lerasium and Trellium/Bavadinium can theoretically give one Sand Mastery (though it was not stated if this was through an alloy or not). We know that Hemalurgy does not follow any of the patterns set out by the other known invested arts. Specifically, it does not involve any kind of Investiture on the part of the user and involves no Connection of any kind to any Shard. Even Feruchemy involves generating Investiture from an unknown source, making its "end-neutral" classification somewhat suspect. We also have some WoBs that seem to imply that it is a more fundamental, less Shard-influenceable fact of the Cosmere than invested arts are. (Big jump number two is that this is sufficient to say that it is not a real invested art.) We know that it is possible, using Lerasium, Atium, base metals, and potentially Harmonium, to make someone a Feruchemist. We know that the Selish invested arts are actually all part of one big invested art, as per WoB, so if Hemalurgy is in fact more of a "consequence" than an invested art that any Shard is directly Connected to, that gives one invested art per shard, except for Autonomy who has at least three that we've seen, but that's ok since that fits Autonomy's Intent, and some parts of invested arts seem to nicely fit into the push/pull internal/external physical/mental/enhancement/temporal system, and -- you get the picture. The final big jump to a conclusion that I'm willing to actually say I truly believe is that Lerasium's alloys follow the established pattern of granting invested arts as the "side effect" and not the main effect, and that the real effect is actually forging a Connection with the Shard/subject attuned to with the other two metals in the alloy. Like an effect similar to the Ire's orb if you burned a Lerasium-Atium alloy as an Allomancer, just with the side effect of Feruchemy. This has very little actually going for it aside from the fact that it makes thematic sense and doesn't seem to contradict anything. The wild speculation includes things like all Shards having something like Hemalurgy that's a more fundamental constant than a proper invested art (with Bonding being Honor's equivalent, for example), all Shards having some even more fundamental law/mechanic of the Cosmere associated with them like entropy or Connection, and Bavadin's multiple other personalities being autonomous personifications of her 16 invested arts which are what she manifests as avatars. I hope that answers your question -- it's evident from the resulting debate and misunderstandings that I most certainly was not clear enough. I...frankly would say that the majority of the posts are relatively meaningless. It has been a debate over both terminology and metaphysical "place", essentially arguing over whether it has been definitely stated by Brandon that "big jump number two" is incorrect. There is not much to be gained from it, in my opinion, unless you particularly want to wonder over whether Navani making anti-voidlight plates was an invested art or not.

Yes? They are not synonyms. Arcana is also not a synonym, as expressly said in that WoB. Invested arts are a subclass of manifestations of investiture (in that context, not the fan "any investiture manifested" context), and those in turn are a subclass of arcana. "Metallic Arts" is an explicitly local term that refers to a subset of manifestations of investiture. Just because the same thing can be referred to by two different words doesn't mean that those two words are synonyms. For example, "canines" may refer to foxes, jackals, and coyotes, along with dogs. The word "dog", however, is generally not taken to include foxes, jackals, or coyotes. I do suggest carefully re-reading the WoB I gave. It has several very noticeable elements. Perhaps the most important is "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." Compare this to Lightweaving and Virtuosity's Intent, Bonding and Honor's Intent, and potentially even Awakening and Endowment's Intent. Then compare it to, say, Autonomy and Sand Mastery or Preservation and Allomancy. Next, read "part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do". And then "And independent of Ruin's presence, really." Unlike how other Shards have a not-insignificant measure of control over their invested arts, it seems Ruin just knows Hemalurgy really well, and can tell people how to do it. Changes in Ruin change Hemalurgy, naturally, but he does not have the same control over Hemalurgy as, say, Honor did over Surgebinding. Finally, read "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." The reason we are given for why Hemalurgy is "of Ruin" here isn't because it's his invested art, Connected to him and flowing through him, it's because you would have to be following his Intent in order to use it. Not any Investiture being related in any way to him, unlike quite literally every invested art we know much of anything about. (Note that Feruchemy does indeed involve some kind of Investiture that is manufactured, stored, and consumed.) Clear communication? Always handy to have a nice, firm baseline. It's fast, it's easy, and it would be quite helpful.

That...does not appear to be the case. That particular term has been used by fans to refer to gaseous, liquid, and solid Investiture, most notably god metals, as well as the mind that Investiture tends to gain over time. Khriss also appears to have very consciously used it to refer to Hemalurgy in the same group as Allomancy and Feruchemy, where elsewhere she refers to magic systems like Allomancy and Feruchemy as invested arts. Brandon, notably, has used it to refer to Hemalurgy. He has never used the term "invested art" to refer to Hemalurgy. He has, however, used it similarly to "magic system". There is also this: which may indeed end the whole debate here and now, as it appears to say exactly what I am saying. Most notably, saying that it is independent of Ruin except for his abstract influence is quite different from how he describes Shards and their influence over their invested arts. There is not a single WoB where Brandon refers to Hemalurgy as an "Invested Art", though there are several where he refers to it as a "Metallic Art" or a "Manifestation of Investiture". There are many which refer to things like Allomancy, Surgebinding, or the arts on Sel as "Invested Arts". And then there is this, which appears to be confirming my theory (i.e. Hemalurgy is not an invested art, but is a law of the universe that is a consequence of Ruin's existence yet is independent of him) and which I definitely wish I'd started out with as I bet we could've avoided most of this discussion. It also gives me Lightweaving and Elsecalling in the "fundamental nature of the cosmere due to a shard's abstract existence" category which can interact with and appear in invested arts but is not actually one, along with Hemalurgy, Bonding, and (if what you say about Awakening with other forms of Investiture is accurate) potentially even Awakening. Anyways though, now that this is more-or-less settled, would you mind going through my list of twenty things and saying whether you think they're invested arts or not? I completely understand about the Dawnshard thing, but I would really appreciate it if you let me know which of those items you consider to be invested arts, especially following this revelation.

If not Connection, what do you suppose the "hoops to jump through" are? This WoB you provide is the clearest on the topic: The former involves transforming Stormlight (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Honor) to Breaths (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Endowment). This does seem to imply some sort of Connection manipulation, doesn't it? The latter is far more vague, but perhaps doesn't rely on Connection at all. Is that what you are referring to? It seems the far more difficult version, given how it's phrased. Precisely! It's just like entropy, or Newton's laws. That's why it's an accurate comparison. I would point out that spren are also "manifestations of Investiture", but that is arguing semantics. Perhaps it would be best if you were to tell me which of these following items you consider to be an "invested art" -- that way we can both be on the same page here! (This isn't some kind of gotcha "just say yes/no" thing, by the way -- absolutely feel free to say "this is a part of this other invested art" or the like. My own answers certainly would include "this is part of X invested art" for many of them.) Fabrial craft. (making fabrials through trapping spren in gemstones and using metals to produce an effect) Fabrial use. (just using a fabrial, not making one) Awakening. Forming a Connection with a region in order to speak and read its language. Making an anti-light plate. Nightmare Painting. Spore-Eating. Wearing dead Shardplate. Bonding a dead Shardblade. Summoning a dead Shardblade. Becoming a Cognitive Shadow in the same way Kelsier did. Using a Soulcaster. Splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium in the same way Wax did. Forging. Hearing Spiritual whispers, like Dalinar and Szeth do. Using a Perpendicularity to travel to or from the Cognitive Realm. Taking an existing Hemalurgic spike and stabbing it into someone else. Making a Hemalurgic spike by stabbing someone, then never using it. The innate benefits of holding Breath. (without Awakening) Using an Awakened device like Fort's tablet. If you feel particularly bored, you could also mention which of them you think would or could be boosted if the user is holding a Dawnshard.

Ah, that is true. I made a mistake -- I confused it with Awakening, which doesn't work on other planets without some Connection. This is not true, it seems. Also, thank you for finding that first WoB -- this section quite nicely summons up the difference between an Invested Art and a magic system. A correct comparison would be comparing that decay (assuming you mean entropy) to Connection. If you want to get very philosophical, you can sort Shardic influence on the Cosmere into four forms: Nature of Existence, i.e. true fundamentals of reality which really can't be conceivably broken. Cosmere Law, i.e. laws of the universe, which can be slightly metaphysical or entirely metaphysical Effect of Existence, i.e. the shard's non-invested arcane influence on the Cosmere as a whole Invested Arts For, say, Ruin, the first three could be written as: The fact that things can break, end, and decay. Entropy Hemalurgy For Honor, they would be: The fact that things obey fundamental forces (axial forces, gravity, electromagnetism, etc). Connection Bonds For other, less axiomatic Shards, things get a bit murker -- does Odium's existence allow for all emotion? Or just anger? Which Shard is responsible for grief, if so? Is Virtuosity responsible for things being beautiful, or the ability to see things as beautiful? And what Cosmere Laws go where? Preservation has lots of Newton's Laws, of course, along with "things that exist tend to continue to exist, more so the simpler they are", but what exactly is the Cosmere Law here? Identity obviously goes to Autonomy, perhaps Fortune to Whimsy, but does anyone get Investiture as a Cosmere Law? Not exactly something that I, or any of us, could sit down and type out. And as for Effects of Existence, I have to say, I am at a complete loss for any more of those at the same level as Bonding or Hemalurgy, except for what I might call "metanarrative crem dung" like "oh wow romances tend to happen between important people during earthshattering events a lot don't they". Perhaps those arcane influences are more subtle, higher-level, or just haven't shown up yet. Maybe they don't actually require some kind of Intent, so something like Investiture's innate effects on living things could be Cultivation's or mental problems and insanity allowing for more Shardic influence could be Odium's. Or perhaps the idea that all shards have to have all four kinds of influence in remotely equal measure is simply incorrect and trying to fill out the list is a waste of time. Regardless, comparing entropy to bonds is entirely wrong. Hemalurgy is an arcane process built on Entropy, Bonding is an arcane process built on Connection.

Might be best to focus exclusively on this for the moment, so forests aren't lost for trees. Hemalurgy is definitely "magic". It is a supernatural thing that can be done in the Cosmere. It is firmly tied to one and only one Shard, and that Shard is able to effect change upon it (most notably, the post-Catacendre change that compounding no longer works). However, Hemalurgy is not an invested art, unless we consider a whole bunch of other things to be invested arts as well that don't even seem to be considered "magic systems". Alder, in another thread, supplied this WoB: Fabrials are a magic system, but not an invested art. I would argue that Navani's manufacturing of anti-voidlight, which is very similar to Hemalurgy at the highest level of abstraction (a non-invested individual uses methods which require specific Intent in order to affect a change in Investiture) is also not an invested art, and probably not really a magic "system", though it is of course "magical". Perhaps an even better example is, minor spoilers for Yumi: An invested art, at its core, is magic which requires the user to be Invested and, it seems, also requires them to have a Connection to the Shard responsible. Note the Old Magic potentially not working so well on worldhoppers, being able to hold Breath requiring a Connection to Endowment, Stormlight and Radiants being tied to Roshar through this Connection, and the land-based arts of Sel. A magic "thing" need not be this way. Connection, as a whole, is not an invested art. Invested arts may manipulate it, create it, or destroy it, and it may be tied to Honor, but while it is magical, forming a Connection with someone or something is not and should not be considered an invested art. Being able to go through a Perpendicularity is also not an invested art. It's magical, it requires Intent, it may even be tied to a Shard (though if it is, we don't know what that Shard would be). But it is not an invested art. I'm not actually sure whether bonding and summoning a Shardblade is an invested art or not, but since it can be detected with Allomantic copper I'd actually lean towards "yes" here, as a subclass of Surgebinding similar to Soulcasting. Other examples of magic that probably shouldn't count as an invested art are: Gaining a Connection to a place in order to speak the language. Becoming a Cognitive Shadow. Spiritual whispers, like the sort that Dalinar and Szeth experience. Eating Investiture. (Larkins, Nightblood, etc) Splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium. (the current running theory is that it involves Intent, I believe) Using sound to draw out Investiture. (though this is probably is the same thing as making anti-light plates) (Debatably) Having a child when you or your partner has an invested art that can be passed down genetically. (Potentially) However Worldhoppers extend their lifespan. (According to some theories) Having a naturally high amount of Fortune. Perhaps the greatest point in favor, though, is the second Cosmere-wide magic system with extremely strong ties to a particular Shard which can manipulate invested arts and which does not require the user be Invested: bonds. Bonds are tied heavily to Honor, with Roshar having the majority of known bond types in the Cosmere, but they exist all over the place and, like Hemalurgy, can be accomplished only through Intent and, generally, certain actions (most often consent). Once the bond is in place, or as it's forming, there is generally some kind of invested art which now becomes possible, but the abstract act of bonding itself does not require a Connection to Honor (after all, you can bond an Aether) while it does appear to involve Intent, at least from one party, and usually, it seems, both. Hemalurgy is performing a destructive action with Intent which causes Investiture to be ripped from a living being and put into metal, which may then be given to another living being by carefully performing another destructive action. It has firm ties to Ruin. Bonding is performing a binding action with Intent which causes a bond to be constructed between a living being and a highly-invested being, which then usually causes one or both parties to gain some kind of benefit, often in the form of an invested art for the living being. It has firm ties to Honor. And just like there are many, many applications for Hemalurgy, there are also many, many applications for bonding. Radiant spren, Shardblades, Singer spren, Rayshardim bonds, Chasmfiend bonds, Unmade bonds, Honorblade bonds, that weird bond thing Odium can do to someone, Seon bonds, Skaze bonds, Aether bonds (spore eaters, aetherbound, and controlling midnight essence, probably more I'm forgetting), the bond between Bavadin and her avatars, the bond between a Shard and their champion, the bond between a Shard's power and Vessel, Aviar bonds, Shardplate spren, the hinted possibility of bonding an entire Shard like it was a spren, and apparently you can even bond a There is also a litmus test of sorts, where you ask the question "Would holding a Dawnshard boost this?" and if the answer is no, it's definitely not an invested art. If Rysn decided to stick a spike through someone, make an anti-light plate, go through a Perpendicularity, become a or possibly even bond a Shardblade (I think it's likely a Dawnshard wielder would be able to summon one more quickly, but not make the initial bond more quickly), would it make a difference? I don't think so.

All invested arts are magic, not all magic is invested arts. But this is getting a bit off topic from the harmonium theory, so we should probably continue exclusively in the other thread.

If Hemalurgy is an invested art, then so is making fabrials, attuning your Connection to a planet, using a Perpendicularity, or any other supernatural thing which can be accomplished with no Investiture and no Connection to any Shard. I mean, it directly lacks the "invested" part of "invested art". Quite literally anyone can make a Hemalurgic spike, as long as they Intend to do so. They might not be able to significantly change the fundamentals, but they can most certainly change the rules and limit areas. Perhaps Preservation couldn't have removed the metals from Allomancy, and it's doubtful that he could have changed Seeking to only be able to detect Surgebinding, but he could and did move metals around and adjust how Snapping worked. Hell, Honor created the entire system of oaths for Surgebinding. That is a drastic change from the invested art anarchy that went on before he decided to put some limitations on it.

The fact that her researchers communicate well with her shows that they respect her as a manager and that she's good at managing them. The single most valuable thing a leader can do in a research-and-development group is communicate with their employees and direct them to other employees who can help them solve whatever they're stuck on at any given moment. Navani does both quite well. Strictly speaking, it is not her job to give scientific or engineering advice -- it is her job to direct the person asking to the source or person who can give that advice. If that source or person is her, so much the better, but it's not her role in the operation to always be the expert in the room.

Metalic Art, yes. Invested art, no. The vast majority of WoBs very carefully seem to avoid calling Hemalurgy an invested art, in fact. Certainly Hemalurgy is an art, but it is definitely not an invested one. As I said in my other reply, we have seen Preservation, Harmony, and Honor directly and significantly change their invested art at will. They may not be able to stop their art from showing up on a planet where they have considerable influence, or if they can they haven't done so thus far that we've seen, but they most certainly have a lot of of control over how their invested arts work.

Whoops, fixed. Shards may indeed be based on certain numbers, but they are not entirely restricted by them. The case in point here would be Voidbinding, which we know is directly of Odium but has ten flavors. The fact that base metals are not directly used in many invested arts does not imply a connection there. Most notably, consider the internal/external, pushing/pulling, and physical/enhancement/mental/temporal categories, which may be applied to many invested arts we have seen. We do not know if it is untouched by other Shards, and I'd think this to be unlikely given that it may directly mimic the ten Surges, but it is predominantly associated with him due to only the Unmade and corrupted spren being able to grant it. Yes, correct -- but some of the Unmade may have abilities which overlap with Voidbinding or with each other. As I mentioned, Ashertmarn and Nergaoul have very similar abilities, which both manifest as the external pulling mental sort. The "theoretically possible" does not say specifically that the alloy would do exactly that. It is entirely consistent with the notion that the alloy of Lerasium and Bavadinium might also require a base metal to specifically make someone a Sand Master, or that an alloy of just Lerasium and Bavadinium wouldn't give you other things besides Sand Mastery. Moreover, Autonomy has several different invested arts, meaning that it would be quite strange if Lerasium could get you Sand Mastery but not, say, Starmarks. The notion of Hemalurgy not being an invested art isn't contradicted by any of them (or, in fact, any WoB that I could find), and the notion that Feruchemy is Ruin's is also consistent with the majority (though admittedly not all, some definitely seem to imply that Ruin and Preservation have exactly equal claim) of them. The ones you posted, however, do not contradict this -- in fact, the longer version of the third directly comments on the existence of it as an entirely distinct invested art as opposed to on Roshar (where it seems as if Honor had more direct control over Surgebinding, despite it being both of him and Cultivation). The fact that Feruchemy is the product of two different shards is still accurate, even if it is Ruin's invested art at the end of the day. The Old Magic is likely purely (or almost purely) of Cultivation, since it does not appear to have such hard-and-fast rules, so we have already seen an example of two shards on a planet who have invested arts where one is pure or almost pure, and the other is quite mixed, with only minor advantage to one shard. Just like Cultivation's art is predominantly hers alone, and Honor's is both his and Cultivation's, it is distinctly possible that Preservation's art is predominantly his alone and Ruin's is both of theirs. Yes, that's part of this theory. I personally believe that it is just that simple, not involving Harmonium, any base metals, or any specific invested art. More that there is no real connection between the effects of an invested art and the Shard backing it. Hemalurgy being such an exception to this is another piece of evidence that it's a byproduct of Ruin's very existence, a fundamental law of the Cosmere that requires neither Investiture or Connection to Ruin, and not his invested art. As per the above, the magic does indeed "spawn" naturally on a world that the Shard has significant influence over, appearing in the population. However, they most certainly have significant influence over their invested art and the rules thereof. The most blatant example is Preservation rewriting Allomancy as part of his plan, changing how it worked quite significantly, which is even more impressive given that he was likely quite weak when he did most of it. Harmony also modifies Allomancy, undoing what Preservation did and also reworking how Snapping occurrs. We also have an example of what happens to an invested art when the Shard who "owned" it is shattered: Honor put drastic limitations on Surgebinding, his own invested art, and when he was shattered, these limitations began to fade. The entire system of oaths to control Surgebinding was, if I'm remembering correctly, Honor's direct invention in order to curb misuse of his art, but that limitation isn't fading, which makes me think that there is some reason why him adding oaths to the system was a "permanent" change while limiting Bondsmiths appears to be quite temporary. Shards most certainly have a great deal of control. Perhaps they couldn't swap invested arts around, but that particular idea is blatant conjecture at best.

The question of "what does Lerasium actually do" is one of the greater mysteries surrounding god metals, but we do actually have quite a bit of information. Let's start with God Metals in general. Lerasium can be burned by anyone (or perhaps, more likely, any Scadrian/person with a Connection to Preservation), and some (though not all) God Metals have a similar property. Any Allomancer can burn Lerasium, and any Scadrian Allomancer could burn Atium as well given their Connection to that Investiture. With some Connection though, well, any God Metal is open game. But here's the interesting bit: Alloys of Lerasium with another God Metal, when burned, may grant access to other Shards' invested arts. Given what Lerasium does by itself (gives access to Preservation's invested art), and how alloys with base metals and Lerasium make a non-allomancer a Misting, and how an Allomancer burning Lerasium or a base metal-alloy of Lerasium will become stronger in their Allomancy or in the corresponding metal, I believe this is enough to make a case for the following: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's invested art or becomes more powerful with it, with potency corresponding to the amount of Lerasium burned. Without another God Metal, Lerasium defaults to Preservation. A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal and a base metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's...what? Here's where I drop a wild conjecture: each and every shard has precisely 16 invested arts that they can work with and shape. They correspond to the base metals. Some, like Preservation, have their 16 all as part of one big invested art. Some, like Honor, do not appear to put all of their eggs in one basket. Shards may collaborate with each other on these arts, like Honor and Cultivation with nine of the ten surges, though this seems to allow other shards the ability to meddle with them as well, such as Odium. Comparisons to how having a cracked spiritweb allows shardic influence abound here. It may also possible for some of these 16 invested arts to be bound together into larger, more potent abilities, such as how Bondsmiths can use Adhesion in ways that Windrunners cannot, manipulating Connection directly. I also here posit that Bavadin's sixteen arts developed their own autonomy, being her sixteen additional personalities/avatars, each associated with a completely unique invested art. Perhaps this is why Brandon has a soft spot for her, since her arts are not only unique, but have their own personalities as well. The fact that she was turning Telsin into an avatar does imply that all 16 aren't currently incarnated in the Cosmere, and thus all sixteen invested arts likely aren't present, but the Sand Lord/Sand Mastery, Patji/Aviar, and Telsin/the weird mind expansion thing she had seem to confirm this, as well as the likelihood that an avatar of Autonomy on the Darkside of Taldain is the incarnation and/or source of Starmarks. Finally, Odium has ten Voidbinding arts, and I believe it is likely that the other six are represented among the Unmade. Comparisons to the seven deadly sins aside, several of the Unmade have very similar "powers". Ashertmarn and Nergaoul, for example. I'd put money on the ten kinds of Voidbinding and the nine powers of the unmade resolving quite easily into sixteen distinct invested arts. Shards may each have particular "numbers", but I believe they all have sixteen parts. Notably, this means that burning pure Lerasium and Trellium could give you some very unpredictable invested arts, as some of them likely are completely unknown to anyone but Bavadin herself. As such, I believe that the triple-alloy effect is: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal and a base metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's invested art corresponding to that metal, or becomes more powerful with it, with potency corresponding to the amount of Lerasium burned. Without another God Metal, Lerasium defaults to Preservation. But that is all, according to Brandon, one big side effect. An Allomancer burning any of these alloys would get this affect, and something else. I strongly believe that this effect is in forging a Connection. The side effect is becoming Invested by that Connection because you're using Investiture to Connect directly to a shard, the predominant effect is in creating that original Connection, and the actual purpose of the alloys is to act as a tuning fork. An Allomancer burning Lerasium could direct this Connection to anything they want, with Allomantic power corresponding to greater control and variability, with alloys focusing this Connection more directly where the Allomancer wants. Bondsmiths appear way better at taking existing Connections, sensing them, and moving them around, but this would be an excellent route for making strong Connections in the first place. It's possible that directing the Connection this way would lessen the invested art-boosting effect, since you're not Connecting as much to a shard, but it's also possible that all you need is some Connection for the invested art to get granted or boosted, and the rest of it can be spent Connecting to whatever you want. Applications could be things like Connecting to a shard in order to become a better Vessel for it, Connecting to a person to see insights into their past, super-long-range intercontinental ballistic bonding to any spren (imagine burning some Lerasium and Koravellium, then forging a truly unbreakable bond to the Nightwatcher), messing with Selish invested arts, finding or tracking anyone or anything (iron and Edglium to track Nightblood, perhaps?), making a Luhel bond with anything at any time, or even potentially stuff like forging Connections with the dead, stealing Dawnshards, and re-forming splintered Shards with yourself as their Vessel by becoming highly Connected to them. It also seems that when you're very highly Invested, you get some kind of intuitive use of your invested arts, such as with the Tenth Heightening -- perhaps that is accomplished through Connection and as such you can get a deep, intuitive understanding of an art through this method. In short, just as Cosmere-breaking as pure Atium's grand future-sight. But there's one question left: what's Feruchemy? Ruin's art is Hemalurgy, right? I say no. Hemalurgy is not an invested art. It requires no Investiture to use, just Intent. It is literally a byproduct of Ruin's existence. Instead, I say Ruin's invested art is actually Feruchemy. Burning an alloy of Atium and Lerasium would make someone a Feruchemist, and adding a base metal would make you a Ferring. Some might protest, saying that Feruchemy doesn't fit Ruin, but Allomancy doesn't actually fit Preservation either! Allomancy involves burning a metal away, Ruining it. Feruchemy takes something and locks it in a metalmind, Preserving it. And so I'll finish with an incredibly bold and (aside from the above, and the Terris people's name coming from their word for Preservation) totally unsubstantiated proposal: Preservation's original art was Feruchemy, Ruin's was Allomancy, and they swapped them, possibly in an attempt to curb their Shard's Intent's influence on their minds. I'm not convinced by this nearly to the same degree as the above Lerasium use or the 16 invested arts per Shard, but I think it's a definite possibility.

I have always assumed that WoB meant that there was a way with exclusively Atium and Lerasium to get Feruchemy. Given this: I have always taken it to mean that the primary effect of burning Lerasium was investing yourself with the invested art(s) of the other invested metals the Lerasium is alloyed with. Without another metal involved, it gives Preservation's invested art. As Hemalurgy is not, in fact, a true "invested art", I've always assumed that the opposing natures of Ruin and Preservation would create a new invested art, that being Feruchemy. As part of that, I have been keeping note of invested arts (and variations thereof) in an attempt to confirm that each shard has precisely 16 invested arts available, which are generally associated with each other and may appear by themselves, in pairs, or as a whole. Given the control that shards have over their invested arts, it seems likely to me that not all of these 16 "slots" are necessarily filled, or at least that not all 16 flavors are represented in the Cosmere. When using Lerasium, you can "attune" the entirety of one art with a god metal alloy, or any one of the 16 with an alloy with a god metal-base metal alloy. This would mean that if you made a Trellium-Lerasium alloy, I believe burning it would grant you all sixteen of Bavad's invested arts, potentially including those that would be entirely unknown (as per my theory that she is essentially composed of 16 autonomous Bavadins, each of which is capable of becoming a proper avatar when given a receptacle and being the foundation of an invested art) since she is still able to create avatars and thus doesn't have all 16 out and about yet. I really ought to make a full post about this idea, honestly. I haven't the faintest idea what would happen if you made an alloy with Lerasium and two other god metals but maybe it'd just make you explode or something.

I would like to throw my hat into the ring of this (rather contentious) issue, and claim that much of the questions posed throughout this debate can be answered, in my opinion, by the notion that Navani isn't actually that smart. Throughout the earlier books, she fills the role of a rich patron, often making fairly surface-level observations and even (in some cases, especially in TWoK) coming up with ideas she's somewhat surprised to see have already been thought up by other people. As time progresses, she inserts herself more and more into the science she oversees, double-checking calculations and acting as a (highly successful) manager. This research she does in RoW is, in fact, the first true scientific work she has personally done herself, and even then, much of the difficult part was done before her. Her own work was completed with the knowledge (or, at least, the strong opinion) that what she was striving for was possible at all. This is a significant difference. She did not discover anti-light -- she just independently found a method of creating it. Similar criticism can be levied at modern institutions for placing more emphasis on being the first person to prominently find something experimentally rather than being the first person to demonstrate theoretical existence, but that's a bit of a tangent. It is my belief that, knowing what Navani knew, nearly anyone in her employ could have done what she did scientifically. Where Navani's strengths came in (as opposed to what other people could have done in her situation) was when she escaped, using her resourcefulness and determination to succeed where many others would have given up or simply been too traumatized to try. Narratively, looking at her history, when Gavilar breaks her down and compares her to anti-light, calling her nothing more than someone who liked science because it was cool, I would say he was largely correct at that point. I also believe that this is, as is (kind of) directly stated by her internal monologue, the reason she began investing herself more and more into scientific endeavors and taking on more and more actual responsibility. I also believe that she is likely quite jealous of Jasnah, who is the brilliant world-renowned woman of science that Navani wishes she was. Navani is a gifted manager, an intelligent woman several steps away from brilliance, who wishes nothing more than to be the genius scientist that her daughter is. When given a chance, the first real chance in her life, to work on the cutting-edge of arcane research, all while she is being praised and complemented for her intelligence as she continues this research, it is not only realistic that she would be somewhat naive and make rather foolish decisions, but it would be (in my opinion) unrealistic should she not have acted that way. Why does she convince the Sibling to bond with her? Likely because she admires Dalinar, is jealous of Jasnah, and wants to be considered "worthy", both as a scientist and in the general sense. Becoming a Bondsmith would make her more similar to Dalinar, superior (in terms of radiant order) to Jasnah, and objectively "worthy" from the perspective of everyone around her. Plus, honestly, it was the only real option at the time. The Stormfather could have refused, the Sibling really couldn't have. If there is one condemnation Navani deserves from all of this, it is only that she appears to believe that her bond wasn't actually one born from mutual desperation, and is indeed an honor she entirely deserves. The honorable thing to do would have been to offer to safely break their bond after the tower was restored, but (as far as I remember) she doesn't suggest this. That is the one and only thing that she did that I believe could really be considered truly wrong, but even so, it makes a lot of sense when considering her aforementioned relationships to Dalinar, Jasnah, and her own sense of self-worth. This seems a bit reductionist to me, though. They do have parallels, yes, but these parallels do not necessarily imply that they deserve the same levels of judgement for their mistakes or should be seen to have the same level of "worthiness". This, however, I completely disagree with. The Stormfather could have refused without ensuring his own destruction. The Sibling could not have. The ability to say "no" without severe consequences is an extremely important one. Moreover, Dalinar was healing with stormlight before forcing the bond in full, and he also was experiencing significant unease with touching a shardblade. This implies that the bonding process was already starting at this point. Navani, however, did not have any of that. A better comparison would be Dalinar pushing the Stormfather to complete a half-built bond before the Stormfather was entirely comfortable with that, and Navani saying "bond me or we both die, also no take-backsies" when there was nothing at all between them before.

Ah, I should probably have specified that both mental and physical deformations occur with hemalurgy, and the mental variety has been more clearly tied to the skill of the hemalurgist so far -- the Kandra seem to experience no mental deformations from their spikes, while the Koloss definitely do and the chimeras are even worse. We also see that the Set's more advanced chimeras, made once they had learned more about hemalurgy, were more intelligent than the original model -- being less mentally deformed, thinking "almost like a person". The Steel Inquisitors experienced relatively low levels of physical and mental deformation, considering how many spikes they had, and Sazed referred to them as being highly-advanced hemalurgic constructs in comparison to the fairly low-level Koloss. We later see how the borderline-mindless first-generation chimeras are formed by just a single somewhat-sloppily placed spike, which lends credence to the theory that while (in general) more spikes = more side effects, that can be significantly offset by skill.

You can get physical strength without any deformation at all, in the case of kandra blessings, and extreme deformation that doesn't appear to be reflecting any given effect, such as with the chimeras. It seems that deformations really are the result of imperfect or imprecise hemalurgy, and with enough skill and art, they can be avoided entirely.

That looks extremely convincing. I'd believe it.

I suppose it's a question of whether one future-seeing technique would interfere constructively with another technique if you are the person doing both at once. Do you know if we've ever gotten any word on that kind of double-dipping into Fortune? I'd imagine that the simplest case, burning atium and electrum at the same time, would have the primary effect of giving other people a smokescreen of atium shadows as their future possibilities react to your electrum shadows, but perhaps there would also be some additional synergy.

Huh, I wonder if a feruchemist tapping Fortune would be immune (or less affected by) someone else burning Atium. Perhaps it would make the Atium shadows be closer in time, so an enemy wouldn't get nearly as much information. That also brings up whether storing Fortune would have the reverse effect. I've often wondered about using nicrosil feruchemy to adjust the power of electrum allomancy, making your electrum shadows appear closer to you in time or further away in the future, but could you do something similar by storing all of your Fortune and then burning electrum to see shadows of you minutes to hours in the future?

As far as what Jasnah wants, I wrote a post a while back about how I think it's quite likely she intends to consolidate power and enforce an extreme/fringe political ideology upon as much of Roshar as she can. As far as Odium goes, Jasnah has displayed on several occasions that she is quite susceptible to losing her temper, especially when disagreed with or otherwise provoked. The most notable example is with Amaram, where she comments on how she's disappointed with herself for how she acted, but we also see this with Kaladin, the street thugs, and just about anyone that gets in her way. The combination of the two, though, makes me think that Jasnah getting Odium would be extremely dangerous. If the emotion that she has the most trouble controlling is anger, she probably should stay far, far away from that shard.

I can't help but think that the ending likely did end with her being dead, and Brandon got the feedback of "absolutely not, make it a happy ending". I felt this way as well. It felt unusually personal, like he was putting too much of himself into the character and thus had difficultly writing him positively. I think this largely contributed to my feeling bizarrely voyeuristic when reading, like it was a slightly-cringeworthy romantic poem between a couple that I was never supposed to see.

Given that shards themselves can and (kind of) do change their Intents, generally in how they view themselves (such as Odium considering himself to be Passion), I would assume that the user's intent would largely determine how the Dawnshards would split a single shard down. Though not particularly useful, there is also an interesting question to ask of what would have occurred should someone with a significant mental disorder have used the Dawnshards to split Adonalsium. We know that mental disorders can significantly impact Shards: One might wonder what 16 shards, say, a psychopath would've created. Or someone with alexithymia. Or some mania or fanaticism.