Nogo

I just started RoW again and was reading very carefully during the Moash / Kaladin exchange at Hearthstone. Moash is a straight up cremhole to Kaladin. Kaladin, someone Moash seems to idolize, like, and respect. I read it over a couple times and I can't get over the emotional jabs and just hurtful things he says to Kaladin while, at the same time, being completely emotionally in control and also before the 9 (or Odium, I don't remember which) decide to play mind games with Kaladin in the tower. Moash hurt Kaladin just because. Moash = sociopath Which means there's no (relatively) hope for revival because he doesn't have the empathy / compassion to even start down that path. Murder is one thing... intentionally exacerbating your friend's mental illness, well that's a whole nother level of evil in my book.

Oh wow, I didn't know they were shattered before the Last Desolation. Welp, there goes that thought. I'm curious to know more about the dome cities in what are now the warcamps. Ok, I'm curious about everything really. Maybe the shattered plains are just the eye of the storm on the Julia set or something.

I wonder if it could be the result or backlash of Yes, more information on the subject would be awesome!

Yes I meant Venli. And dang you're right it was a double-up on lightweavers. WTH. I guess Matala or whomever was around tho too (in her clandestine operations). I see your bolded section... and check. I personally focused in on the "He was your first god" comment. That was what really perked me up. Yeah, the humans brought the void, but was he their god? Syl says so, but I'm kinda on the fence. Though I totally agree that Odium wasn't setting up a civilization or anything like that. You're right, his MO is not creating a nurtured wonderful society. Lol it's funny to just picture that. Anyways, it was the first god comment that got me going. I'm not fully up to date on what exactly being one's god entails... it sounds simple enough until you make your brain hurt thinking about it. As for the Dawnshard, I don't remember any references of one in Scandrial or anywhere except the obvious. But I was jumping on the comment. Is there something somewhere that says Shards would need a Dawnshard to create worlds. Honestly I would think not given the amount of worlds out there, but y'all are all more up to date on stuff. I just read books (and now ramble on this forum).

Our "always thought" concepts were completely different. I was the long term guy. What you say makes sense and, from what it seems, is what actually happened. Except for the Shin stone worshipers who wouldn't/didn't leave Shinovar of course. Tangent point -- I was just finishing up Oathbringer again and noticed that Sly explicitly says to Kaladin that Odium was the human god on Ashyn and then switched to the Singers on Roshar (pg 1202). Though she also admits that she wasn't around then. Super-Tangent Rabbithole point-- So I was just finishing up Oathbringer again... and I realized that during the Battle of Thalyen City when Dalinar and company were counting radiants (plus Ash and Taln) and wound up with only nine instead of the expected ten... yeah I realized who the 10th one is and feel super dumb that I didn't pick it up at least on the 2nd read. I mean it took my first reread since RoW to pick up on it. Though I was really excited about it when everything clicked. Does everyone else already know the 10th and I was just lagging way behind? Ruin and Preservation made their world and their humans... did they need a Dawnshard for that? If so... that's very interesting. Someone track that down! But I think the humans were on Ashyn pre-shattering like was said by lots of people up there ^.

I agree that long life could have been possible. My mind just hasn't come to grips with many of them having extended lives and being alive on Ashyn and then still around on Roshar long enough for the whole Human/Singer agreement to implode. It's surely possible, it just seems off to me. Why do you always make my brain hurt!?!?!? That is a very interesting thought. How would we know if they were human? They occupy Singer bodies now, and have since they became shadows... I never even came close to coming to that conclusion. That deserves some serious thought. I'm in the middle of OB right now so I will keep this in mind as I read the rest of SA and see if I glean any hints or innuendo or overt omissions. As for Nale and Jezeien, when I contemplated that statement when I first read it, I sort of figured that humanity had split between isolationists and expansionists. Basically stonewalkers and non-stonewalkers. And that assumption drives my confusion concerning the timeline as I would figure that multiple generations would have to go by before humanity forgot the agreement about staying in Shinovar and started expanding. I am coming to think that assumption is wrong though. I just don't see how the pieces fit and timeline wise it seems that moving to Roshar and the wars with the Singers happened fairly close together. Even though I had always thought there was significant time there. I think we need a good Ashyn / 1st Desolation flashback please. ....and I wrote this this morning before work... get back here now and realize I never submitted it. So this might be 10 hours out of date...

Truth. "The girl who looks up" just screams OG Shinovar to me. Maybe that's just the tricksy hobbitses talking again though. I had thought about that from the Ashyn point of view but it just didn't take hold in my mind. That could possibly be because we know almost nothing about Ashyn and it could match like so totally super well and the girl was really Ishar or something. As for the age thing... it could be, of course... but that seems like a real stretch to me. I think there's something missing or misleading in our story / timeline from 7500 or some odd years ago. Something else is going (or went) on there. I think... maybe...

I can't believe you only got 3 heart/reputation/like thingies for that line. Made me laugh so hard. Well said sir, well said. Unfortunately it doesn't seem far from the truth either... I forgot to write something I can't doublepost... so major edit here-- The Ashyn timeline doesn't jive well with me. Makes me wonder when the Shards really got ahold of the different populations.

I think because part of the objective of the Desolations was to set human society back as far as they can. Kill all the educated people and that really screws you over for the rebuild. "Hey man, do you know how to make that wagon wheel thing." "Naw dude, all the wheel makers were killed in the Desolation." "Well, I have to transport this stuff over to Kholinar so it looks like it's time for me to reinvent the wheel." It's not like the fused aren't torturing the bejesus out of the heralds on Braise to get back fastest before the humans can rebuild. Oh yeah, the topic... Honorblade dude wins. Except that he can only kill the host not actually Yelig-nar... so in the end I'd just to have to call it a draw. And maybe Yelig-nar's host in Nohadan's time was a Ninja-Assassin who then had the added Yelig-nar super-bonus which enabled him/her/it to infiltrate the palace and set education back a decade or six.

Since Venli can harmonize tones on her own (which, I think, highlights the connection between Cultivation and Willshapers, or maybe just Singers/Listeners) in this instance, then she should be able to create the harmonized light using the same general technique that Navani did making Warlight. Presumably Venli can harmonize any combination of tones as she can access all three types. However, without deliberately mixing the light (like Navani did drawing the two lights into one) I'm hesitant to say that she was using Warlight. Big possible exception would be that somehow she merged the lights together in her gemheart (or something) while holding both and signing the harmony. Maybe??? It does seem strange for her to be able to unintentionally do what took Navani and Raboniel so much time and effort to do. Y'all making my brain hurt again

^ This. All of this. So much so

That would be exceedingly strange. Hmmmm. I am desperately trying to find the random passage in 5000 pages of book where (I think) Syl said something about not being able to attract spren. When I find whatever it is I'm thinking of I will post it here. Back to the Maya thing tho... I am sure that Sanderson has this already all worked out and we're sitting here trying to remake that wheel with whatever tibits he has given us. Gluttons for punishment we are. That being said, if Maya doesn't come back I'm going to be an unhappy camper. I'm just saying. ^^^ I love this idea and agree wholeheartedly. Tho, in my mind I still assume/presume that once all the fixing is done the Nahel Bond would wind up as a traditional bond (tho maybe because of the way it originates, maybe the 2 way extra bonding provides more power/insight/something). That just made me think about Sureblood and Gallant and Adolin's bonding there.

I agree that I isn't the sole case. It was in brain until y'all started talking about this though... I do think that even though people "know" what shardblades are. Knowing, and legitimately perceiving them that way are two different things. Also, the sapient spren of Shadesmar "know" that the deadeyes are dead and will never come back. That kind of thinking (among humans, if we are going to decide that sprens' emotions don't matter) does no good for Maya and all her brethren. Lastly, I wonder how much I am pretty sure that spren cannot attract spren in the physical real. I think Syl called Kaladin silly one time concerning that. Not sure how much we can extrapolate from that. Also not sure how much it matters when most of the spren are in the CR anyways. Last random thought...

I have always thought that Maya was healing or whatnot because Adolin was viewing her differently. Spren are what people think they are... so if Adolin's perception of Maya is different than that of a deadeye, wouldn't that be changing the reality of her plight as a deadeye? Also, though I am not clear if spren's perception of things affect other spren... but I have always been grumpy about the spren in shademar's view of the deadeyes. They are all so absolutely sure about the their one and only view of deadeyes. If the spens' perception does affect the deadeyes, then the spren are hardcore blocking any kind of healing or change where deadeyes are concerned. Anyone have any clarity on that one? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that spren's perceptions of spren are irrelevant but, I am not sure of that. I think what y'all said above is absolutely correct. I also think Adolin's perception of Maya is fully necessary for the other factors to weigh in.

Welcome! Your name is creative. It made me smile What's your favorite Sanderson world?

I'm a vote "no" kind of guy here. Though of course it is possible, I don't see it. I don't put Szeth in the same category. Like at all. Szeth believed in something and did terrible things based on his "rightous" belief. Moash is just... well, he's a jerk.

OOOOOOOOO, dang. Plus Lift and Dalinar would be way freaking different. But, at the same time, is Cultivation the only thing keeping Rayse from winning already?

Nice! You're more committed than me. I have read most (Alcatraz and graphic novels excluded) but I am hardcore stuck in the Cosmere and, honestly, don't want Sanderson distracted with other material so he can KEEP WRITING COSMERE STUFF! The fact that the last SA book won't be around until the time I retire makes me uber sad. Welcome to the sideshow, er 17th Shard

That's a good question. Tho I believe that Preservation and Ruin have been referred to as black black and white which might mean they are actual opposites (as opposed to Stormlight and Voidlight and associated rhythms) which could come together like two puzzle pieces... or the Sin and Sin^-1 waves (my inner nerd is showing right there, sorry) basically canceling each other out. And that kind of seems to be how Sazed presents himself in Era2. Hmmmmm. Or it's creating corruption. Or both. Also, the smashing of two rhythms together may very well create discordance... which is one of my favorite words. And would be a kickass name for a shard imo.

Truth. I was saying that Dalinar's past behavior does not give him an excuse for the way he behaves today. Dalinar's backstory really doesn't apply to the Moash discussion at all as far as I can tell. We were discussing things in Moash's past that could possibly explain / justify his craptastic actions. I usually am. I really like Kaladin. But his faults & PTSD very much mirror my own and my own personal struggles and harshness with myself seep through pretty solid which makes me really judgmental of him because I fight it every day with myself. Dunno if that makes sense to you, but it does somewhere up in my noggin.

Nice topic dude. I am not the one for answers, just hairbrained theories that get pew-pew-pew'ed. My only say in this is... that on Roshar, Red "corrupted" spren are seen as Odiums but, only (i guess??) kind of? as they are corrupted by the midnight mother. But then we have red eyes, red spren, etc etc. On Roshar Odium seems synonymous with corruption. Sometimes it all makes my head hurt. But in a good freaking way. (kind of like posting in this forum.... most of my words are underlined in red... they must be corrupted. *sigh*)

I'm open to anything. That'd be one hell of a killer backstory though... :-)

That's a lot of good knowledge! Makes me then wonder if Rayse was just idling on Ashyn waiting for humans to do what they do best...

Grumble grumble. Very misleading Mr. Sanderson. Grumble grumble. Referring to himself as the Almighty as a title... I get that. Referring to himself as the creator of mankind... seems like your tricksy Hobbitses as you say. Syl would have hemmed Kaladin up if he did something like that. Sidenote... I am still very interested in the surges used on Ashyn. That is, as far as I know, a huge gap of information that we are oblivious to. If humans didn't bond spren until they reached Roshar then what enabled them to be invested on Ashyn?

Johnny you remind me of me. I think some people enjoy the serious side of characters, and some people like the weird. Me, I lean to the weird. It seems that you just might too. Not that I'm not serious sometimes. Like that one time, ya know, then, yeah, that time... you didn't look