Heilven

I mean, besides the fact that we already have 2 examples that go against this. Skybreakers don't get division until third ideal, and obviously lightweavers have their own weirdness. With how much more individual the oaths become as they advance, why shouldn't the last be completely individual. Besides, why can't the extra ability at 5th ideal for all radiants be an increase to their resonance abilities? I feel like that makes plenty of sense. We also know that high level abilities require specific command, which implies new magical ability, not something physical like shardblades or plate.

Okay, I got to thinking these past couple of days, and I had an idea for what kind of extra power could be given to a 5th ideal windrunner. Although I will first need to explain my theory of adhesion. Adhesion stands out among the surges, for a few reasons. Obviously, it's Honor's truest surge. The fused don't see it as a surge, rather as something very specific to Honor. I don't think this is true, seeing as the surges predate honor and cultivation, and the number 10 shows up too often in rosharan ecology to be created by honor, but I digress. Adhesion is also said to come in two forms, "spiritual" and "physical". Bondsmiths get spiritual adhesion, and Windrunners get physical adhesion. Except that's not true, since in Oathbringer, Dalinar is clearly shown to be able to use adhesion in the same way that Windrunners can, minus the reverse lashing of course. He can stick rocks to walls just fine, and can even likely use a full lashing. So I think that adhesion is really just connection. The ability to manipulate connection. Specifically meaning connecting and potentially disconnecting things on a spiritual, cosmere level. It would make sense for this to be Honor's truest surge, as he's all about bonds and connection. Odium wouldn't want to give this surge to his fused, as it would be far, far too powerful. A fused with connection might be able to connect themselves to honor instead of odium, essentially freeing themselves. And I think this clearly lines up with what we see in the text in terms of ability. Dalinar connects things together, that's his job. "Physical" adhesion, under this framework, is essentially just telling an object "oh hey, this is part of you. Both of you are strongly connected" and so they stick together for a while. I also argue that windrunners having extra squires isn't due to their resonance power, and is entirely due to the surge of adhesion, granting them connections to the people around them far more easily. Obviously all radiants have some connection shenanigans, but that's likely just due to the nature of spren bonding, which goes beyond radiants and permeates all creatures on roshar. So, if adhesion is just connection, where does that lead to the fifth ideal. I think that if 5th ideal windrunners get any sort of extra power, it's an enhancement to their resonance power, the reverse lashing. The reverse lashing is clearly the real resonance ability, as is stated in ROW. The reverse lashing connects objects at a distance to an object of your choice, telling them to be gravitationally attracted to it. I think the clear way to improve this is to cut out the specific object of attraction. Consider mistborn's iron and steel. It grants the ability to connect yourself to things around you at a distance, and push and pull on them. The blue lines that make up steel and iron sight are connection lines, as indicated by what Dalinar sees in ROW. I think that it makes sense for a 5th ideal windrunner to be granted that sort of sight, and be able to lash at a distance, through the same mechanism as iron and steel sight. Doing so would likely be difficult, and would almost certainly require you to command the object, unlike the flexibility you have when touching the object in question. I think this represents a clear use of the systems involved, as well as what I think is a natural step up in power. It's definitely very powerful, but I think limiting it with specific command helps to balance out that power increase. I also think that it is narratively satisfying, given the extra attention that has been given to adhesion and resonance powers in ROW. I of course present this as a potential option, as I don't think it's a given, or that it is the only possible increase. The natural answer of "perfect stormlight retention" is also plenty likely in my opinion. I just wanted to present this as an option as I have been thinking about it. I also don't know how controversial my theory of adhesion is. It might already be taken as a given for most people, I haven't really seen any discussion about that. Anyway, feel free to tell me what you think

Gotta agree with you here. I don't think it's fortune, rather that it's a sort of heightened "battle sense". Honestly I don't think there's too much of a difference, seeing as how future sense in the cosmere is essentially laplace's demon / Dune spice precog. But where Renarin, Cultivation, Odium, and Teravangian all are able to predict the future by having extensive knowledge of the actions of everyone around them, normal radiants likely get the benefits of just an enhanced mind. You can easily predict where someone will swing just by looking at their muscles and momentum. I truly think it's just that in the case of radiants. It could be an effect of adhesion, connecting you to your fighters and being able to know their future somewhat (perhaps like nalatium?) but it's obviously not a massive power.

That's interesting. With new discoveries on how to use aluminum in fabrials, I wonder if we might learn more about the nature of aluminum soon.

Can you soulcast things into aluminum? I believe you, but I've been wondering about this for a while so it would be cool to have the evidence

I knew I saw this somewhere. My point stands then. Spren are far too large to fit into that small space without overflowing and creating an invested object

Aluminum has no spiritual or cognitive presence, and thus cannot be pushed on. Duralumin isn't aluminum identity wise, so it does have a cognitive presence and can be pushed on. For the purposes of the cosmere it's a different metal. If pure atium should resist pushes just like shardblades, then you can't push on it because of all the extra investiture. Add in some electrum, even 90% electrum, and it should still be very difficult to push on. All the investiture is still there, it's just less dense. It should at least be noticeable, given how they can tell the difference between normal metal and a metalmind

I think I'm remembering something that I can't source properly. Honestly I think it requires too many tricks to make it make narrative sense the way I'm thinking about it, so yeah it's probably the same as matter. The reason I think radiant blades are so much more invested comes from This wob. Shardblades are extremely difficult to push or pull on, but atium is no big deal. I get that atium is an alloy of atium and electrum, but it's different than duralumin. duralumin is a different thing from aluminum, and aluminum is weird. If atium was as invested as a shardblade, then it would be adding a ton of extra investiture, enough so that anyone would notice it. If metalminds are noticeably more difficult to push and pull on, nalatium would have to be. I believe he's been asked this in the past, and the explanation has been that godmetals are naturally harder to push on, but not to a significant degree. We don't have any indication of whether lerasium could have been pushed or pulled on, so that's not really any evidence in either direction. Vin never tried pushing or pulling on the lerasium. Nightblood likely doesn't have any specific commands that strengthen it, yet is so strong it can stop a shardblade. Same with vivenna's blade. I think you need a hell of a lot of investiture before it starts noticeably becoming stronger. Honestly I might be confusing theory for fact. I think it's just consistent if heavily invested objects are bound more tightly together, seeing as they are closer to the spiritual realm.

This is true, but the greying of corpses caused by Vivenna's blade is clearly different than that of a radiant or honor blade, seeing as Adolin considers it worth mention. While cut limbs will turn a sort of unnatural grey, it's described as the sort of thing that happens to flesh without oxygen, not the skin literally going grey. I would say that the burned out eyes are indicative of the connection to the physical realm being shattered, which doesn't happen with Vivenna's blade. I am, however, fully willing to believe that Vivenna's blade doesn't consume investiture, it only consumes color (from it's victims). I think from a story perspective you are probably right. The justification I can believe is that the consumption of color is somehow damaging the connections, which is what causes the blade to be able to cut. Shardblades don't cut in the physical realm, they cut in the cognitive and spiritual realms. When Vivenna cuts people, it doesn't leave wounds. The reason I went with it consuming investiture in small amounts was because of the connection to nightblood (of course) and our ignorance on what color... is. Obviously color is important, but in a way that goes beyond just cognitive. The fact that it fuels awakening is weird, and I feel like there has to be some investiture shenanigans. But we don't have the answer to that. Importantly I just don't think Vivenna's blade straight up cuts connection, I think that it's an important side effect. However I don't think Raboniel would mention it. She doesn't know everything, and it's more likely that the fused just had a "bad feeling" or something about the sword. They could probably tell that it was a shardblade, but with no spren. That feels like something a fused would be able to feel. The specific mention of her blade scaring the fused off is worth something, I think it's more than just them being afraid of shardblades in general. So I remember having a discussion or reading a discussion a while back on this. I don't think that Wob is quite saying that radiant blades and honor blades aren't invested beyond being a god metal, because that would be extremely inconsistent. Radiant blades, shardplate, and honor blades are all very, very difficult to push. Like only able to be pushed on by Vin while ascending to preservation. Compare that to Lerasium or atium, which can be pushed or pulled on. I can't find a wob on that, but essentially atium can clearly be pushed on, which shouldn't be affected too much by being alloyed with electrum. Besides, it doesn't make much sense. God metals are the least dense form of investiture, and spren are massive in gaseous form. That much investiture poured into a small area would absolutely overfill the thing. Besides, we know that shardplate is easier to push on, meaning it has less investiture. That wouldn't make sense if it's all made out of the same thing with nothing extra. Radiant blades are one of the most invested things we have seen, and other god metals are clearly not as invested. I mean fabrials are also made out of avastium, so by all rights they should be as indestructible as plate. oh wait you mean like modern fabrials. Modern fabrials aren't highly invested though, as the stormlight is just used by the spren to do things. The exception to this is half-shards, which are highly invested by adhesion spren, and are definitely more resistant to damage. But you could argue that has to do with the investiture literally holding it together harder. Metalminds aren't highly invested either, more so than fabrials, but they can still be pushed and pulled on. I could have sworn we have been told that metalminds are literally harder to cut than normal metals to some small degree, but I could just be wrong. Awakened items are almost certainly harder to damage though, I just reread that scene, and I think it's completely inconclusive as toward my argument. If Kaladin noticed anything, it wasn't an important enough difference. It does seem like as soon as it is cut, it stops being awakened. Every time Kaladin cut one of the sheets, it fell limply to the ground. So there is something there. I didn't mean to imply that metalminds would block a shardblade. They would probably feel like killing an animal, if I had to guess. Oh wait that's right. I found my reasoning again, there's a resistance when you cut through a person. A small one, but a noticeable one. And people are invested. But yeah, I only meant to say that a shardblade couldn't cut a metalmind without destroying it. It wouldn't be two metalminds, just two pieces of (relatively) uninvested metal.

I think a big issue here is the lack of examples that we have of this phenomenon. We have Radiant Shardblades, Honorblades, Nightblood, and Vivenna's Blade. But we know very little about Vivenna's Blade, so our only non-honor shardblade is Nightblood. And we know Nightblood is an outlier. I actually disagree with this, I think that is how it cuts at all. We are shown in Oathbringer that Vivenna's Blade kills differently from a shardblade. I'll try to find the passage: I'd reckon this is in some way consuming the investiture of the person, causing them to die. I still think it cuts on a spiritual and cognitive level rather than physical, but I think that works out. So in some way, I think Vivenna's blade is more like a controlled Nightblood. It doesn't eat investiture in the quantities that Nightblood demands, but still consumes investiture. Regardless, It's difficult to decide what it is about a shardblade that gives it its properties. I think that Vivenna's Blade and Nightblood are actually more dangerous than a Radiant Blade, because they are going to kill you straight up. A shardblade will simply sever your connection to the physical realm. This would track as for why the Fused were afraid of Vivenna's blade, as it would probably kill them permanently. The more interesting question is on the properties of radiant blades and honorblades. I would expect them to have different properties, since Honorblades are made of Tanavastium and invested with pure stormlight, whereas radiant blades are made of Avastium (Alloy of honor and cultivation's god metals, I like this name) in different ratios and are invested by some combination of stormlight and lifelight (I imagine this has to be true, as spren are splinters of Honor and Cultivation, not just one or the other). So I would expect there to be some difference in properties not only between honorblades and radiant blades, but between the different types of radiant blades. All of this speculation is hard tho, as we have no idea what uninvested Tanavastium (Tanavastium is too long. I think we should call it Tanavium. I think that rolls of the tongue well) is like on its own. While I don't disagree with the idea of it being unbreakable, that's a bit redundant. We know that heavily invested objects are stronger and harder to cut, so it follows that a shardblade has unbreakable properties due to it's extreme amounts of investiture. I think the properties of uninvested Tanavium have to be important to some degree, so I hope we find out what those are at some point. I think shardblades definitely destroy the investiture in a material to some degree, or maybe cause it to leak. I should be more specific. I think that any invested object is closer to the spiritual realm, and thus will attempt to hold to its spiritual ideal to some degree. So when a shardblade attempts to cut the connection in an object, the extra investiture fills in the cuts, holding the whole thing together. Eventually the extra investiture is all used up, and the object is cut through just like normal. Perhaps the reason this doesn't happen to radiant blades has to do with the relative investitures between them. Since they are the same, both resist cuts from the other radiant blade perfectly. Compare this to shardplate, which is far less invested. When struck by any weapon, it will begin to lose the investiture holding it together. At some point, I imagine the spren simply chooses to stop taking physical form, deciding it isn't worth the possible damage. "But Heilven!" You may be thinking. "Invested metalminds can be cut!". And that's certainly true. But I think that has to do with your intent. I actually think something like a shardknife would be completely incapable of cutting a metalmind without destroying all of the investiture first. In some way, I think the metalmind is still one spiritual object when cut. A shardblade has to cut in the cognitive and spiritual realms, so the metalmind would resist this. But if you were just attempting to cut it in half, I think that the metalmind wouldn't object. It doesn't really care about being in one piece. Compare this to shardplate, where the spren definitely care about being in one piece, and won't want you to cut them into pieces. That last bit I'm not too confident about. It could be due to the physical properties of tanavium/avastium making the bonds extremely strong, such that it just won't break. I'm definitely willing to believe that, but I wouldn't really expect that out of cultivation's metal. I would figure that it would want to change, not remain the exact same all the time.

At least in the case of Dalinar (I don't remember for lift) she is not breaking her promise. She told Dalinar he would get his memory back. The plan was for him to get the memories back so that he could grow and change. That wasn't breaking the promise, it was intentional.

This is actually kinda my point, that their strength does come from stormlight, but their ability to become strong using stormlight has more to do with having a larger spirit web. I think that all kinds of investiture likely give all benefits, but specific coded types give more of some than others (just like how all shards can see the future, but some are better than others). So stormlight gives you better reactions, healing, and strength, but isn't great at letting you see colors or hear tones. Something that seriously hurts my argument is how few examples we have, I'm fully willing to believe that. I'm essentially trying to argue that the "passive" (not passive, but passive so long as you hold stormlight) benefits of being a radiant are more about being a person with extra latent investiture than a specific effect of the nahel bond. I don't think they are on the order of high tier awakeners or elantrians, but that it's a similar source. Additionally I might argue that if vasher became a radiant, he might gain far more benefit out of the stormlight because of his already existing latent investiture. But that's speculation. I totally get that, I think the thing is that spren have very large spirit webs, and expand the spirit web of a radiant significantly. Obviously this is only true of higher ideal radiants, but we know the benefits like healing get better when you are at higher ideals. So I think the reason we see such powerful healing with a comparatively smaller spirit web is due to the coding of stormlight giving those effects. I don't think radiants would see benefits like perfect pitch or perfect color, perhaps just, better. I also think rosharans have better pitch in general due to constantly being around investiture and the presence of the rhythms, so the benefit might not be mentionable. This is also more of a speculative theory than truly evidence based.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the extra strength and such given by stormlight is an effect of having extra latent investiture, not necessarily a specific effect of stormlight. I'd compare it to being an elantrian, a returned, or even a high heightening awakener. All of these increase the size of your spirit web, and give passive benefits like healing and strength. In the case of Radiants, they can actively consume investiture to heal faster, something all the others don't have great access to (besides elantrians, but they still need an aon so it doesn't count). So I think radiants probably have other passive benefits they haven't noticed, just like how holding extra breaths gives passive benefits. I think radiants don't hold as much latent investiture as several heightening's of course, so I would figure the benefits are more difficult to notice. If all colors around you became just 10% more vivid over the course of a year you probably wouldn't notice. I wonder if with how important tones are on roshar, it will actually come up that radiants have better pitch. Mostly conjecture, but I think it connects a lot of dots

You know honestly I have no clue how ptp teleportation works. We know it's possible from a variety of ways, from elsecallers to elantrians, but I have no good theory on how it works. Something like your explanation appeals to me a lot. I like the idea that teleportation is basically startrek transporters haha. Just turn your body into investiture, connect you to a new physical point, then turn it back. I don't know if this is his intended explanation, but I think it's really funny

3 Physical + 1 Time. Spiritual Realm is spaceless and timeless

My take on this is that the spiritual realm is the body of adonalsium, and is made up entirely of investiture (as investiture is the "body" of adonalsium). So you can peer into the spiritual realm, but you cannot enter it. The cognitive realm is physical because everything we imagine is physical, and so it can be traveled in. All beings already exist partly in the spiritual realm of course, as spirit webs exist in the spiritual realm. The more innate investiture you have, the larger your presence in the spiritual realm. Those holding a shard are almost entirely in the spiritual realm, and so they can see through it all the time. But they can't travel in it, because traveling in a place with no space or time is meaningless. You can't even enter it, since it is made up of only investiture. To enter the spiritual realm would mean shedding your Identity, and at that point you aren't really even you anymore, all that's left is your spirit web. Your spirit web cannot make decisions or act in any way, so you haven't really done anything per say.

Small correction, while holding stormlight you don't need to breathe, the stormlight powers breathing for you. Most if not all radiants go without radiants go without breathing while holding large amounts of stormlight, because opening your mouth to breathe will cause stormlight to leak out faster. I imagine using stormlight to breathe is probably more efficient than stormlight healing oxygen deprived cells, but that's a total guess on my part. Otherwise I agree with you 100% I have seem some crazy arguments on temperature in space. It's really complicated, because the energy you lose from black body radiation isn't as insubstantial as you would believe. Without being constantly surrounded by warm particles you would start to feel colder. But the side of your body pointed towards the sun would feel noticeably warmer, as there is no air to absorb and redirect the sun's light. All in all astronauts do need insulated suits so that they can warm themselves with body heat, but it's not a major concern and likely wouldn't be one for fused or radiant. Shardplate does likely mitigate all of these issues. Pressurized, will help with insulation, and likely radiation resistant. Doesn't help the fused, but could help a skybreaker. A windrunner might be able to make a bubble of air with adhesion to grab a few people without shardplate, but that's complete speculation. And of course that air would only help with pressure, it wouldn't be breathable for long.

I went the longest time misinterpreting this. I thought it was said in the books that the Fused simply choose not to lash more than once in order to better use voidlight, not that they literally couldn't, but yeah. This WoB basically confirms that: To be fair he doesn't say they only get 1 lashing, just that they are limited, but I don't think the nuance matters at all for this conversation. They cannot accelerate nearly as fast as I suggested, you are completely correct. I don't think this is true though. It's been a minute since I have read RoW and I don't have my copy right now but the coppermind doesn't suggest this. It says that Citing chapter 14 from RoW, where they meet in Kholinar. If they really are considered great builders I would assume that they are perfectly capable of making complex structures. And even if each singer can only access one essence, you could just use multiple singers. Oh this actually brings up a completely different tangent, do the singers recognize the 10 essences? Or do they forgo one (likely ishi)? Anyway I think they could make a ball. I don't understand what you mean by this. I was specifically referring to traveling from Roshar to Braize, I don't have any idea if surgebinding even works for them on Braize. About inventiveness tho, I'm going to try dig up some actual evidence but I'll describe what I mean. I have this idea in my head that one of the reasons humanity was able to survive the desolations for so long was their constant inventiveness, whereas the fused tended to stick to the same strategy every time. Something about their immortality causing them to change very slowly. Alright without a reread I think I won't be able to find evidence for that (if it exists and I'm not just making it up) so that's essentially what I mean by inventiveness. Not that they weren't smart, they are clearly extremely intelligent. More that they aren't daring, so if they try something and it doesn't work, most of them just give up. I imagine Raboniel is likely an exception to this, as she is particularly science minded. We also know that the groups of Fused are divided in a similar way that the radiants are divided, so if one group of fused is against a plan, they likely just wouldn't participate. With that inventiveness however, I think RoW helps to prove my point. Raboniel was probably looking for a way to make anti-light for a couple thousand years and never really came close. Navani got there with help in a few months. Fused seem to just be very in the box thinkers. Oh wait I get what you mean with the first quote. I was responding to this I meant that the opposite is true, they did try it during a Desolation but failed to travel from Roshar to Braize. I apologize, my wording was confusing. Oh but if you will indulge me for just a moment longer, I'm going to do some math. If we assume that the distance from Roshar to Braize is approximately the distance from Earth to Mars (which feels right based on how the rosharan system is set up) then at the shortest the distance is 54.6 million kilometers. With acceleration of .7g, your position is given by s = .35gt^2. You would want to accelerate half the time, then decelerate the other half of the time, so we should consider the time taken to travel 27.3 million kilometers and then double it. So that's 2 * sqrt(27300 million / .35g), which gives a total time of 187042 seconds. Very useful number, right. Anyway that works out to about 50 of our minutes. This is certainly within the correct value by an order of magnitude, which in my opinion makes this method of travel extremely possible. Anyway I spent wayyyy too long on this response instead of making a presentation due tomorrow so I'm going to go do that now EDIT: I went back in and checked the velocities and they are too fast so the calculation isn't valid. However, the relativity will actually make you arrive faster in your perspective, so it's actually better evidence. I might do the relativistic corrections later when I have time

As other people have said I believe the opposite is true. They specifically mention trying and failing. This could easily be explained by: 1. Heavenly ones tend not to perform more than 1 lashing, limiting their speed 2. Healing is weaker, and without adhesion you are taking constant damage due to pressure 3. They aren't inventive. I believe they say that they took a bag of gemstones and attempted to travel to braize, thinking it could be a possibility for escaping between desolations. They likely didn't bring enough voidlight, and died on the way. They then assumed it was impossible, and never tried again. I think it's very possible for them to travel to Braize. Simply use transformation to make a sealed metal ball around the heavenly one, and give them a bunch of voidlight. Much more than usual. Apply a few lashings to the ball, possibly 3, then use voidlight to breath. The pressurized ball will prevent your blood from boiling, and you should absolutely have enough voidlight to make the trip. The main issue is would be bad aim, so maybe install a window or something.

Okay yep, this is definitely true. I think there might be some narrative wiggle room, like you say you would be bullet proof on the extreme ends. So perhaps the more subtle changes would allow for bullets to have a mostly indistinguishable effect. If a bullet goes right through you at normal density, even at twice or 3 times density it should probably still go through you. I think the main issue is with any blunt damage the bullets would do. Like they should still be able to break bones, but not crack them. I'm not sure what exactly the material properties are that make armor good, since generally this isn't something you have to worry about. I assume any part of your body that works to redistribute force would become significantly more effective at higher mass. Obviously this isn't true textually, so I'm essentially trying to reason through what exactly would need to be changed. I almost wonder if it's a spirit web or identity thing. Like the investiture giving you a greater mass knows what it's effect should be, and only really applies that. So when you get shot by a bullet perhaps your identity intentionally makes your body weaker where the bullet is touching since it knows you shouldn't gain an advantage against it. This is extremely hand wavy and experimental but I think it makes a decent amount of sense in universe. It could be a potential understanding of the whole windrunner g-force problem thing too. Your physical body doesn't feel a force, but your identity or perhaps your connection to the planet tells you you should have felt one, and thus you do. We have definitely seen that identity and connection are capable of affecting things in the physical world, so I think this could be a decent understanding. It's certainly very "the magic handles it" but I like having the specific mechanism by which it is handled. It's certainly quite catch-all, but it just feels better to me.

I mean I disagree on points 2 and 3 (but agree to disagree on point 3). If you become more massive because of increased reactions via the higgs field, your density definitely increases. You are correct, density is M/V so density would increase. What I disagree with is that increasing your density must therefore increase your- actually I thought it through and I realized it has a cascading effect. I was going to say that increasing your mass in this way does not increase the electromagnetic bonds holding you together, so a bullet still tears through you just like normal. Wait no I changed my mind again because I actually thought about coloumb's law and it doesn't have anything to do with mass. So I still agree with myself. You have more mass, but the force holding your atoms and molecules together isn't any stronger. So a bullet imparts a smaller relative change in momentum to you, but still tears right through you. Basically you are harder to move (expected) but not harder to cut. Let me know if this doesn't properly track with the standard model, I'm not quite a PhD student in particle physics (Yet. I will be in a couple of years) I have very little understanding of the higgs field to be fair, and from what I know mass is just about the least defined thing we have in physics in relation to its obvious importance.

Except they aren't wearing any metal and are inside of the train. And the negatives are that he could be very easily swept off of his feet, and is more sluggish. Both things that make his fight more difficult with Miles when he uses this exact tactic. I didn't say the underlying mechanics of the cosmere. I said the full mechanics of the cosmere. He did not fully know how acceleration would work in 2018, he still doesn't quite know how iron feruchemy works. It's extremely complicated and the full physics involved requires a theory of quantum gravity, which is something we don't have in the real world. His desire to serve reader expectation does not go above his desire to maintain the rules he has set up. Besides the fact that the underlying mechanics of the cosmere were clearly not fully established, since he has had to retcon atium since then. My point is that it is not only very possible, but explicitly true that he didn't exactly know how a feruchemist punching someone would work, since he says you would have to ask Peter for the numbers in the exact WoB. That was the point I was making by bringing that point up by the way. The higgs field is a perfectly valid scientific explanation to iron feruchemy. The main problem with Iron feruchemy is conservation of energy (Which @alder24 and I have talked about, and he has talked about even more than me) since having a decent answer likely requires something akin to a quantum theory of gravity, as well as the fact that our equations for kinetic and potential energy don't correctly apply to the cosmere. I got this answer from your own quote talking about the issues with F-Iron. This is incoherent. I've asked all of my friends if they understand what you mean by this and I don't want to misconstrue your point, so please rephrase this argument. To me it just looks like a complete non-sequitur.

Uncomfortable situation being significantly heavier than normal. This would make fighting more difficult. It would make him slower, and easier to knock over. Miles takes advantage of this very fact later in the fight. Demonstrably untrue. I don't know how to debate this. This is simply an incorrect fact. Hey look that one was from 2018. So we have an example of him saying that he doesn't have the mechanics fully fleshed out not only in the exact quote you keep using, but in another quote you used from 2018. There are a million examples. He breaks the laws of thermodynamics. He also has to change several laws of physics for the world, those are the arbitrary rules. There are still rules. They just aren't the exact same as ours. They are still quite similar. And finally, on point number 3. First of all, "he just says that a feruchemist doesn't hit with a thousand pounds, meaning that in no scenario does the amount of iron someone is taping affect how hard they hit." What? So he says one thing is true, therefore something completely different is true? What? And for "Mass is not added to punches"

So in the quote you provided he explicitly says that he didn't ignore science, he actually didn't fully understand it in this example. When it comes to speed bubbles you are correct, but this is brought up in universe and clearly has an in world consequence. Brandon Sanderson is explicit in making rules and following them. They don't have to be the same rules as in the real world, but there are rules. Conservation of momentum is explicitly stated to be true in universe, and I would expect it to apply in a situation like on the train. It just so happens that it didn't apply in the way that I assumed it would. The fight with the coinshot was lower stakes, and as I have mentioned time and time again, increasing his weight just to do one punch would have been a bad idea. It is resource intensive and puts him in an uncomfortable situation. Increasing his weight tenfold was clearly not something he does lightly (no pun intended) so he didn't need to do it for the coinshot. You repeatedly ignore my math in stating that you wouldn't get a ton of benefit out of increased mass behind a punch when the consequences are as low as Wax likes them. Playing around with your mass is dangerous, and isn't worth doing in a simple brawl. Maybe if Wayne was an iron ferring he would have figured out a variety of ways to use f-iron in melee combat safely. Again, he doesn't say that you can't. That was the entire point of my post. There are other weird things with F-Iron, but if you state "we don't have all of the information, so you are definitely wrong" then why not throw out the entire argument. If there are no rules, what is the point of the debate? Anyone could say anything. I truly believe that time and time again we have given ample textual evidence and reasoning as towards this facet of Iron Feruchemy. Clearly we cannot solve all of F-Iron, but we are not attempting to. You cannot keep banking on your one argument being that "He stated you can't, so you all are ridiculous for not accepting we are right". He did not state anything of the sort, and that quote was from 12 years ago, back when he had a much smaller grasp on the full mechanics of the cosmere. If you disagree with my translation we can talk about that, but he absolutely does not say that punches from an iron ferring aren't any more powerful than normal. And that's the only argument we are trying to prove, not that you gain ludicrous strength or can vaporize people easily, just that the punch does hit with greater force.

Okay I went back and reread the chapter and this is true. I don't know if this is Sanderson forgetting about conservation of momentum, or if it is him totally understanding it and applying it to the whole train. So when wax increases his weight tenfold, he barely makes an effect of the train's total weight. I have to imagine that both him and the train slow down ever so slightly, but not enough to notice. Otherwise we are just throwing out conservation of momentum here, which Sanderson has been explicit about not doing. Anyway, the point still stands to a certain degree. Increasing his weight to a point where punching becomes effective would still be disastrous. If we assume that he can still move with no reduction in speed (which is almost certainly untrue, but simply wasn't mentioned because him moving like 80% as fast as normal / tiring himself more in order to move isn't important to the scene) he would still need upwards of 100 times his weight to do anything substantial to Miles. Also I explicitly didn't do this. I have an entire paragraph analyzing this quote in my post. I was making a point in saying that we are giving this quote more meaning than it was ever meant to have. He "spoke kinda funny" because it was offhand. We don't have to throw the whole thing out, but basing most of your argument on this quote definitely meaning that you can't punch with extra force using F-Iron is silly. And the amount of strength that you gain when tapping mass is very nebulous, likely on purpose. You don't move half as fast when twice your weight, it just takes more energy to move. You gain some nebulous amount of strength, and the relative amount of energy required to move isn't quite as high as it "should" be. "Energy" here being a stand in for "how much do I tire myself" so not Energy Joules or whatever but the colloquial use of the term. I think a reasonable guess as to how much strength you gain is "enough such that you don't just collapse under your own weight". You definitely feel heavier, so it's not giving you super strength, but it's still there. If you put 75kg on a person they would still be able to move around, so it's not a big deal for increases of mass in the 5~10x range. But in the 1000x range you would certainly see something. I bet when Wax tapped all of his mass all at once in AoL, he wouldn't have been able to walk at all, just remain standing.