Mad_Scientist

According to the Ars Arcanum: "A Full Lashing might seem very similiar to a Basic Lashing, but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force(or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion--binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmosphereic pressure."

I haven't exactly dropped it, but I certianly don't endorse it strongly. When I realized that spren bonds as a focus no longer made sense to me, I asked myself "well then, what could possibly be the focus for Surgebinding?" And thought was the only thing I could come up with at the time. Regardless of whether thought is correct or not, I don't think spren bonds are the focus of Surgebinding. When I have time to consider things more, I'll probably come up with a more detailed argument for thought being the focus, or will come up with an entirely new idea for the focus. For now, I simply have a hard time figuring out what the heck the focus could be. I notice you use the term "bestowing powers," but as I mentioned I don't really think we should think of focuses in those terms. A focus may or may not have anything to do with bestowing powers. But it definitely does have to do with using powers. Now, within a focus, there seems to be variants, and then subsets of the variants. For example, an Elantrian can use Aon Ehe to make fire. By adding on to the Aon, he can determine lots of things related to the fire, like its power or its target. But Aon Ehe will always be related to fire. It will never heal someone. A Mistborn can burn pewter. By determinging the rate of the burn, whether he burns it slowly or flares it, he can determine the power of the effect. But burning pewter will never do anything other than increase his physical abilities. It will never give him the ability to push on metals. An Awakener can use the Command "Hold things." Depending on what he uses it on, how much breath he gives up, and how effectively he visualizes the Command, the effectiveness of the Command will drastically change. But the "Hold things" command will always cause something to hold things, assuming it works at all. It will never create a lifeless. So, with Surgebinding, we know one of the Surges is gravity, and it can be used to create both Basic and Reverse Lashings. Furthermore, the strength and direction of a Basic Lashing can vary drastically. I could accept that a single spren bond provides the ability to manipulate gravity, and the specifics of the manipulation are determined by more subtle and harder to define things. I could accept that spren bonds are the focus for Surgebonding then, because even though there are some variations with gravity manipulation, it's clearly defined in the magic system as a single power. But Kaladin can do more than manipulate gravity. He can also manipulate adhesion. Something clearly defined as a different aspect of the magic system, a different power. And he only has a single spren bond. And it gets even harder to accept when considering different powers. Gravity and adhesion are kind of similiar, but what about transformation and memory? I didn't mention it yet, but I'm fairly certain that Shallan's unique memory is actually an aspect of the magic system (consider how similiar it is to copperminds... when she uses a "Memory" to draw something she completely loses the memory, just like someone transfering a memory to a coppermind also loses it). I could maybe be convinced that gravity and adhesion are the same power, so having a single focus variant produce both effects makes sense. Maybe. But Soulcasting and memory manipulation? No. And gravity and whatever power the Gravity-Unknown order uses? Adhesion and whatever other power the Adhesion-Unknown order uses? The sub powers of the Radiants are too clearly defined as separate powers for me to think that a single focus variant could produce both. It's not that I think a focus variant has to provide absolute specificity, that every single exact variation of a power has to be provided by an exact variation of the focus. After all, you can boost your physical power in allomancy beyond normal by simply flaring pewter, you don't have to burn a completely different metal. But the focus has to at least has to provide some level of specificity. A single spren bond for each order of Radiants doesn't provide enough for Surgebinding, and multiple spren bonds for each order of Radiants seems to have already been proven false by Kaladin.

Some time after making the above post, my thoughts on the nature of a focus came together much better, and I realized I could state my views in far more clear and informative manner. So, I'm making another post. Right now, we have 3 confirmed focuses: Aons for AonDor, Commands for Awakening, and metals for Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy. If one looks at all three focuses and how they interact with their magic systems, one can notice a variety of common traits, which I believe to be the defining traits of a focus. Before I get to those, I want to discuss something that is NOT a defining trait. A focus is not used to grant powers. Or, I should say, granting powers does not make something a focus. In Mistborn, powers are generally granted through a combination of genetics and mental trauma. In Elantris, Elantrian powers are apparantly granted by either the Sheod, or the Dor, depending on how you look at things, and the other powers we don't know enough about yet to accurately guess. In Warbreaker, powers are granted by breath, and thus every single person is born with the ability to awaken (there are one breath commands and commands that don't even cause you to lose your breath). Yet none of those things are the focuses of the magic system. In some cases there is an overlap, since Larasium, a metal, can grant allomancy powers, and metals are the focus of allomancy. But in general, the method of granting powers is usually different. Thus, if it indeed turns out that the bonds with spren are the method through which Surgebinding powers are granted (which I actually think is the case), this does not mean it is also the focus of Surgebinding powers. It also doesn't mean it is NOT the focus of Surgebinding powers, it simply doesn't provide any evidence towards either option. Now, onto what I feel are the defining traits of a focus. A focus is actively used in the magic system A focus is not simply used once and then ignored. It is used every time you want to actively use the magic system to do something. If an Elantrian wants to travel, or wants to heal, or wants to produce light, he uses an Aon. If an Awakener wants to give up memories, or animate a corpse, or make a rope hold things, he uses a Command. If an allomancer wants to increase his physical abilities, or see the future, or sense other allomancers using their powers, he burns a metal. If a feruchemist wants to store memories, or store speed, or tap strength, he uses a metal. If a hemalurgist wants to steal mental clarity, or steal an allomantic power, or steal a feruchemical power, he uses a metal. Any active use of a magic system will use its focus. Passive abilites do not necessarily do so, though. For example, an Elantrian does not need to use an Aon to benefit from faster healing. An Awakener does not need to use a Command to use his increased life sense. But any active ability uses the focus. A focus is omnipresent in the magic system. This kind of follows from the above. A focus is used for active magic. It is always used for active magic. Even if someone has gained magic powers through abnormal abilities, they still use the normal focus. Inquisitors still burn metals for allomancy and use metalminds for feruchemy. The only confirmed exceptions to this occurs in Mistborn, where Vin burned the mists instead of metals, and later powered Elend's allomancy using her powers. It's important to note that both situations involve someone directly interacting with power of a Shard in an unusual way, and both exceptions bring with them drastically increased power. In Vin's case, her powers were so vast that allomancy couldn't even be used as a proper outlet for them. It seems to me that when someone interacts with a Shard's power in an abnormal way and gains vastly greater powers than is normally possible, there's a chance the normal rules for the magic system will start to break down, and the focus may no longer be necessary. These are very rare exceptions, though. As a general rule, if you are using a magic system to do something, you are also using the focus of the magic system in some way. A focus for a magic system has variations within it. There are many different Aons. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Commands. And there are 16 metals used for allomancy, and apparantly feruchemy and hemalurgy as well. What should we call these variations? Sub-focuses? Focus variations? I honestly don't know, though I will call them "focus variations" from here on. Regardless of what term we use, it's clear that every focus for a magic system has several varieties. The number of varieties, and the reason for them, is rather different for each magic system. Their are only 16 allomantic metals, and this number is because Preservation knew 16 had important cosmere connections and chose 16 for allomancy to be a sign to the people on Scadrial. There are at least a couple dozen Aons, and the Aons seem to be connected to deep meanings of language and the like. There are countless Commands, and who knows what if any deeper meaning they have. But regardless of number, regardless of reason, there is always some variation within a focus. A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system I finally figured out the term I want to use to describe this idea. Exclusivity is much better at getting the point across than uniqueness or universality. A specific focus variation, a specific metal, a specific Aon, a specific Command, produces an exclusive effect. No other metals will produce the same effect as pewter, no other Aons will produce the same effect as Ehe, no other commands will product the same effect as "Destroy Evil". One could argue that Awakening presents a contradiction to this, with at least two known Commands capable of producing lifeless. I would say that the exlusivity of focus variations lies in the realmatic effects they produce, and that the apparant physical results of said realmatic effect might have some overlap. A person burning tin and a person burning atium might both be able to react to something better than a normal person. The person burning tin does so because his enhanced senses let him perceive things better and quicker. A person burning atium does so because he can see the future. Overlapping results, completely different powers. A single focus variation will produce a specific realmatic effect, and that can result in any number of different physical effects and actions. Some overlap in the visible effects can and will occur in some magic systems, but the realmatic effects will remain distinct. Creating a lifeless through the many breath Command and creating one through the single breath Command might seem to have similiar or even identical results, but what is going on realmatically is quite different for the two. A focus variant for a magic system is specific Any magic system can be broken down into various parts, various disciplines or aspects or effects or whatever you want to call them. Allomancy has 16. Awakening has who knows how many. Regardless of number, a specific focus variation will produce one specific effect. Burning pewter will produce the effect of burning pewter, never the effect of burning iron. Using the "Hold things" Command will never create a lifeless. The very concept of a focus is based on the idea that it is the method you use to specify what a magic system does, and thus, each variation of a focus will specify a single effect within that magic system. Exactly how broad or precise that effect is will vary depending on the magic system, but if a magic systems definies two different things as different powers, a single focus will never be used to cause both of them to occur. It cannot, for the very concept of a focus is that it is the method you choose to determine which of those effects you want to occur. Now, looking at the 5 defining traits I list above, I realize that none of them are 100% confirmed to be a required part of a focus. But most of them are pretty much required by the definition of focus that we are using. Think of the term focus. If one first hears the phrase "focus of a magic system," one might think it means "that which the magic system is focused on, or that which the magic system is based on." But that definition of focus is too vague. Awakening could easily be said to be based on color, or based on breaths, or based on bringing life to innanimate objects, or based on Commands. But only one of those things is the actual focus of Awakening: Commands. If one accepts the definition of "focus of a magic system" as being "that which focuses a magic system, that is, that which specifies how a magic system is used or how it manifests its powers," then things make much more sense. With that definition, Commands are the obvious focus of Awakening. But if one accepts that definition, which seems to be the definition Chaos is advocating, most of my above "5 defining points" become requirements. If the focus is something someone uses to specify how a magic system is used, something someone uses to choose how a magic system is used, it has to be an active part of the magic. If someone can routinely use the magic to produce a variety of effects without using the focus, then the entire concept of a focus being needed to specify how the magic is used would be false. It would have to be omnipresent as well. If most of the people using the magic could just ignore the focus, or half the people could, or even a quarter, then there wouldn't be a single focus for the magic system. If half the allomancers could produce the same effects as others, but without burning metals, then metals as an encompassing focus for the entire magic system would make no sense. A focus would also have to have variations within it. Afterall, the focus is what you use to specify, to focus, the magic. If there is no variation within the focus, you have no way of doing so. And the variations within a focus would have to be specific. The entire concept of the focus that we have is based on specificity. Take that away, and the focus looses all meaning. The only one of the defining traits I listed above that isn't an intrinsic requirement of our definition of focus is exclusivity. Even if it turns out I am wrong about exlusivity being a part of a focus, and the many breath and one breath Commands for lifeless produce the exact same realmatic effect, the Commands still function as a focus. They can still be used to specify the effects of Awakening. It would just mean that more than one Command could be used to specify the same effect. Thus, we reach the problem with spren bonds as a focus of Surgebinding. The violate 3 of the 5 defining aspects of a focus. The violate the omnipresence of a focus, because Szeth seems to Surgebind without a spren bond. Now, one could argue that this is not a true violation, that we don't know for sure that Szeth has no honorspren. One could also point out that ominpresence is the one aspect of a focus that is 100% confirmed to have exceptions, and that my ideas on the reasons for the exceptions could be wrong. If this was the only problem with the spren focus theory, I might be able to accept the theory. But the idea also violates the principle of exclusivity. If each order of Radiants had a single spren as their focus, but shared powers, it would mean different spren would produce the same effect. Now, one could also argue this point as well. One could point out how exclusivity is not absolutely required by our definiton of focus, and how the lifeless Commands provide some evidence that it might not always be an aspect of a focus. And so, once again, if this were the only objection, I might be able to accept the spren focus theory. When combined with the above objection relatated to omnipresence, though, it becomes much harder. And finally, we get to what I consider the death knell of the theory: specificity. Each order of Radiants had two powers, but according to the theory, had only a single spren as a focus. Thus, the spren variations are not specific enough to be a focus. This is a problem, because unlike the above two objections, I don't see any arguments around this. The entire concept of a focus we are working with is that it specifies how a magic system is used. If we say something is a focus, but it does NOT specify how the magic system is used, then we violate the very premise our entire argument is based upon. And when combined with the other objections of ominpresence and exlusivity... well, it doesn't look good for the spren focus theory. Either spren bonds aren't a focus, or our entire concept of what a focus is is wrong.

Hmm. If indeed "focus uniqueness" is true, the apparant duplicate effect from different commands is a problem. But I think I can answer that. I think that creating a lifeless using the old many breath command and creating one using the new one breath command do not do the same thing. In Mistborn and Elantris, the magic systems have a few fairly broad abilities, and there isn't that much variety in the respective focuses. Allomancy has 16 metals. 16 different categories. Thus, doing something like burning pewter produces several different effects. But of course it is still completely distinct from any other metal burning. AonDor has a few dozen (known) Aons. Once again, we have a fairly small number of individual focuses. We didn't really see too much of AonDor, so it's hard to really talk about it too much, but it seems it would be fairly simple to classify all the different things AonDor can do. With Awakening, there are hundreds of different Commands. The abilities you can use with Awakening are much more precise. As a result, there are Commands that do similiar, but still distinct things. For example, "Holds things" and "Hold when thrown." Both Commands, when given to a rope, can be used to bind someone. And if a person using "Hold things" threw a rope at the exact moment he gave the Command, a casual observer might not even be able to tell that it was different from someone using "Hold when thrown." So my belief is that the old lifeless Command and the new one don't actually do the same thing, they just look like the same thing. The new lifeless Command doesn't just create a mindless automaton, it actually makes the corpse closer to a living being. Does the old one do that too? The new lifeless Command allows a corpse to retain some of its old skills, did the old lifeless Command do that? The new lifeless Command relies almost entirely on the body of the corpse to provide movement, and the old lifeless Command very probably did not do that, considering how many breaths it took. Now, perhaps I'm still wrong, and it is actually possible for two different focuses to produce identical effects within a magic system. Ok. But I still don't think it's possible for a single focus to produce two completely distinct effects, at least not without some sort of modification of the focus. The fact that every Radiant order uses two different abilities, and (if spren are the focus) only uses a single focus to access those abilities is odd. It would be like if in AonDor, Elantrians could only draw one Aon. An Elantrian named Bob can draw his Aon, and it can either create fire, or create light. An Elantrian named Fred can draw a different Aon, and it can either create light, or heal someone. An Elantrian named Jim can draw yet another different Aon, and it can heal someone, or teleport Jim elsewhere. In such a system, the Aons aren't really serving as focuses, at least as I understand them. They aren't focuses, they aren't specifying how the magic system is used really. If a spren is the way someone specifies how Surgebinding is used, it shouldn't produce two completely different effects. If a spren grants two completely different powers, than how does a person choose which of those powers to actually use? By thought? If so, then why isn't thought the focus, when it's the thing that is actually determining which power is used. EDIT: Fixed some major typos and incomplete sentences.

Thanks you. I was trying to express that in my post, but I think the way you wrote it out is a lot clearer and more concise.

I've come to a conclusion: I don't think focuses on Roshar are spren, or the bond with spren, or anything like it. Let me explain why. I still agree with the basic definition of a focus given in this thread. The focus of a magic system is not that which the magic system is focused on, rather, it is that which focuses the magic system. Basically, a focus is how you choose what power you want to access. A magic system might grant 16 powers, or a thousand, or 5, and a person might potentially have the ability to use all or just some of those powers. But regardless, when they decide "I want to use this one power," the focus of the magic system is the method they use to choose that one power. But there's something I think you missed, Chaos. A specific focus varient seems to apply universally for that magic system, regardless of how the power is gotten or what other powers someone possesses. Let me use Mistborn as an example to better explain what I mean. In Mistborn, we have a Thug like Ham. We have Spook, who briefly gained the power of a Thug through the use of a completely different magic system. We have Vin, a natural Mistborn, and Elend, a Mistborn who gained his powers through Larasium. We have a bunch of Inquisitors who gained the ability of a Thug the same way Spook did. Diffrent overall abilities, different levels of strenth, and even some totally different methods of acquiring the abilities in the first place. But regardless, if any of them decide "I want to use the allomantic power that makes my body stronger," they do so by burning pewter. It doesn't matter how they got their powers, or what other, if any, powers they possess. They want to strengthen their body using allomancy, they burn pewter. The only exceptions to that are Vin burning the mists and Vin empowering Elend after her ascension, but I think both can be taken as unusual exceptions caused by direct interaction with the very essence of a Shard, rather than an indication that the general rule is false. They were both unique situations where the rules temporarily changed, but in general the rules for Vin and Elend were the same as for everyone else: burn pewter to strengthen the body. Burn a different metal to do something else. Anyways, getting to the point. Assuming I'm right about the way a particular focus varient is universal, there's no way that spren bonds can be the focus for Surgebinding. Because if a bond with a specific type of spren was the focus, that means that it should apply to all Surgebinders, and even people who gained Surgebinding abilities through abnormal methods. There are two issues that arise from that. The first is that Szeth would have to have an honorspren. It wouldn't matter if he got his powers through an abnormal method. Afterall, an as I mentioned above, an Inquisitor still burns pewter to use the associated allomantic ability. Szeth would still need an honorspren to use the associated Surgebinding ability. The other problem is that each order of Radiants actually uses two powers, and they share powers. Kaladin has the ability of a Windfinder, the ability to manipulate two Surges: gravity, and adhesion. There are other orders of Radiants who could manipulate one of those Surges. One could manipulate gravity plus another unknown Surge, and the other order could manipulate adhesion plus another unknown Surge. If a bond with an honorspren is the focus varient needed to manipulate gravity, then that would mean it should also be the focus varient the Gravity-Unknown order of Radiants would use when they manipulated gravity. So they would also need to be bonded to honorspren. But the Gravity-Unknown order would also need to be bonded to another spren in order to manipulate their unknown Surge, right? That doesn't really make sense. It would be like if in Mistborn, tin and pewter didn't exist. Instead you just had silver. Some people could burn silver, and gain the abilities of both tin and pewter. Some could burn silver, but only gain the abilities of tin. Some could burn silver, but only gain the abilities of pewter. It would be weird and convolted and not fit in with the rest of the magic. But maybe I'm wrong about focus varients for a magic system being universal. Perhaps on Roshar, different people use different varients to do the same thing. This still seems weird to me, like if in Elantris some people would draw one Aon to heal, but other people would draw a completely different Aon to heal, and both of them are definitely using AonDor and not separate magic systems, but I suppose it could be possible. But there's still the problem of every order of the Knights Radient having two powers. If spren bonds are the focus of Roshar, the way people specify how they use the magic, and each order was bonded to a single spren, the spren bonds aren't really specific enough are they? Instead of a spren bond being being used to specify one power, it's used to specify two? Maybe you could say that the Radiant abilities aren't really two powers, just one broad power, and people just divided them into subsets to categorize them better. Afterall, pewter gives both increased strength and increased healing, it's a fairly broad power, so perhaps that's the case with the Radiant abilities. Except that's clearly not the case with the Radiants. The two powers each order manipulates are very specific and obviously different from another, at least in some cases. Soulcasting is clearly its own ability. Two different Radiant orders could Soulcast. Surely they were two different Radiant order using the same power, not two different Radiant orders using completely different powers that just happen to have near identical manifestations of one of their aspects. So spren bonds aren't the focus of Roshar. They aren't specific enough for something that is supposed to specify how a magic system is used, and they don't appear to be universally used to choose a specific power for the magic system. So what do I think the focus for Roshar is? Really, there's only one thing I can imagine right now, based on what we've seen. Thought. On Roshar, you don't have to use metals or draw Aons or give specific commands to pick which power you use. Your thoughts are enough. Thought is the focus of magic on Roshar.

A girl scout cookie from hell, stamped with a nice "S" for Satan, and surrounded by flames.

I guess the focus could be the "Nahel bond" maybe? From the Nohadon vision: "Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" So we have a pretty clear reference to the Nahel bond being related to Surgebinding, perhaps the cause of it, as well as a reference to it being possible to form a Nahel bond with other spren than honorspren. Hmm. I think I may need to revise my "Splinters have their own intent" theory. Originally, I assumed every Splinter would have an intent that would be a specific subset of its Shard. So an Honor Splinter would have an intent that involves being honorable in a specific fashion. I'm now thinking that is wrong, and that a Splinter can have an intent that is a subset, but is not required to. My belief is that most of the spren you see in Roshar now don't have Splinters, but all the spren in the old days that were used for the Nahel bond did. All Splinters of Honor. Some of those Splinters had Honor's full intent, and were honorspren. Others had Splinters that embodied specific aspects of honor, such as truth. Truthspren. Ideally, this would have ensured that all Surgebinders would be good people, as the spren would be driven by their Splinters intent to seek out people who embody honor or specific forms of honorable behavior. But as evidenced from the Nohadon vision, it didn't quite work out. Hmm. Still not sure about all of that.

I figured it might be fun to theorize and see if I can figure out what the purpose is of the organization that is this board's namesake. Unfortunately, we don't really know that much about the Seventeenth Shard yet, so this thread will be highly speculative. Still, I enjoy speculation, and I imagine most of the regular posters here do too, so I thought I'd give it a shot. For the purpose of this thread, I am going to assume the following things are true: Hoid wrote the letter. The people in the purelake interlude were Seventeenth Shard members One of them was Galladon from Elantris None of the above are 100% confirmed yet, but I think they are all very solid theories, and without at least something to base my speculation on, trying to guess the purpose of the Seventeenth Shard will be pointless. Also, I am going to assume that the Seventeenth Shard were not founded by the Person Being Addressed in the letter, and are indeed separate from him/her. From the above information, I can assume that the Seventeenth Shard is not an evil organization. Yes, it's possible that Galladon got corrupted between Elantris and Way of Kings, but I doubt it. It's also possible that he's been decieved, that the leaders of the Seventeenth Shard are keeping things from some members, but I find it unlikely they'd be able to keep something as massive as having outright evil intentions secret from Galladon. Galladon seems like a fairly perceptive person, and he also doesn't give loyalty easily. If this organization has managed to convince him to go around planet hopping, I'd guess that it must have done something to impress him. At the very worse, I'd say the Seventeenth Shard is misguided, perhaps due to lack of information, but I doubt they are outright evil. Another interesting thing about the Seventeenth Shard is an oddity that arises from looking at the letter in WoK. The Seventeenth Shard are described as friends of the Person Being Addressed in Hoid's letter. That person is described as having an "insistence on nonintervention." The Seventeenth Shard is an organization of planet hoppers. I'm sure you can tell where I'm going here: why is the Person Being Addressed friendly with the Seventeenth Shard? If they are planet hopping, surely they must be doing something that could be considered intervention. Now, maybe the Person Being Addressed only has a nonintervention stance for him and certain other beings (such as Hoid) he feels are in a unique position of wisdom and/or power, and doesn't object to other people going around and involving themselves in things. I suppose that might be the case. But at the very least, I suspect the goal of the Seventeenth Shard isn't something totally drastic like recombining all the Shards into Adonalsium again or anything like that. The Person Being Addressed couldn't really be a friend/advisor to such a group while holding to a policy of nonintervention. We also know that the Seventeenth Shard is after Hoid, though we have no idea why. The impression I got was that chasing Hoid was not the primary purpose of the organization, though it's possibly important to their long term goals that they catch him. The final thing I note about the Seventeenth Shard is their name. As far as we know, there are only 16 Shards of Adonalsium. The Seventeenth Shard is clearly named after those Shards, but what is this (presumably metaphorical) "Seventeenth" Shard they reference? From these observations, I have come to two main theories, though one of them has three variations. Theory 1: The Seventeenth Shard is a bunch of researchers working for Sazed. This theory fits together nicely. Brandon has stated that now that Sazed has become a god, he can essentially just will himself to any of the planets in the cosmere, but that doing so would have consequences. I imagine those consequences could be quite great. Some Shards might view his arrival as an intrusion or invasion into their territory, and doing so would leave Scadrial unprotected for a bit. Given that their are nasty Shards like Odium going around, and that the power of a Shard is such that unresisted it can annihilate a world in an instant, Sazed would be understandably reluctant to leave. But of course Sazed would want to learn about the cosmere, and the other worlds and Shards. So the solution would be to create an orginization to go to the other worlds for him. The Shards there aren't as likely to be bothered by mere mortals showing up (and may not even notice them). And Sazed would not be leaving Scadrial unprotected. Also, since the purpose of the Seventeenth Shard would primarily be to gather information (and maybe recruit new members), it probably wouldn't piss off the Person Being Addressed. As for why they'd be chasing Hoid, that could simply be because Sazed is concerned about Hoid and whatever he is planning, and is also interested in the info that Hoid presumably has inside his head. And the name? Well, it would be a reference to Sazed, aka Harmony. Before Chaos comes in and points out how Harmony is not actually a Shard intent, etc, I'm not saying that Sazed is literally a new Shard. Just that his Shard-esque name and nature as holder of both Preservation and Ruin makes him very much like one. This theory is nice and neat, and plausible. Which is perhaps why, despite posting it here, I ultiimately reject it for the much more crazy theory below. Theory 2: The Seventeenth Shard are trying to create a new Shard, one with balanced intent. Yes, this idea is based on some pretty out there concepts. If you like theories with carefully grounded facts and tons of book citations, turn back now. Part of his idea originally from the speculation on whether or not it would be possible to repair the Aona/Skai Shards by gathering together the power/splinters. Another part came from my theory that Splinters have their own intent. I wondered, what if both things were true? What if it was possible to remake a Shard by gathering together Splinters, and what if every Splinter had its own intent? If that was the case, what would happen if you gathered a bunch of Splinters: not from a single Shard, but from all 16? Would it be possible to forge them together into a new Shard, one that had the balanced intent of the original Adonalsium? The idea seemed insane. Afterall, even if you got together a dozen or so splinters of all 16 Shards and combined them together, would you really end up with something that had anywhere near the power of a normal Shard? Probably not. But perhaps the Seveneenth Shard doesn't care, they know what they create won't be as powerful as a normal Shard but think it is worth doing anyways to produce something at least akin to a Shard that has balanced intent. Or perhaps they have a way to give the new Shard a bit of a power boost. Consider for a moment what exactly happened to Aona and Skai's Shards after they were splintered. Some of their power obviously remains, but does that power, now without consciousness, without even the normal form of a Shard, still have an overpowering intent that drives it? Or is the intent that power once had now mostly concentrated in the splinters formed when the Shard died? Could someone take a bunch of splinters from other Shards, and merge it was the scattered power of Aona, and thus end up with something with balanced intent? Perhaps driven towards love and devotion a bit more strongly than otherwise, but would that really be a bad thing? Of course, if it was possible to recreate Shards from Splinters, or even create entirely new Shards, why would Odium have done what he did? Maybe he didn't know this was possible(perhaps is only possible because of something related to Skai's leftover power, since Skai might be a Unity synonym) Or maybe he figured that since a Shard's power seemingly can't be destroyed entirely, it was best to at least make as hard as possible for anyone to reclaim the power. Now, if this is the goal of the Seventeenth Shard, the reason for their name becomes obvious. One would perhaps wonder why they would get along with the Person Being Addressed. Well, the primary purpose of the Seventeenth Shard wouldn't be to interfere with the worlds they went to, just gather a few Splinters and be on their way. Of course, if this is their goal, the question arises: who do they intend to give the new Shard to when they finally create it? Theory 2, Variation A: The leader of the Seventeenth Shard intends to claim it. This is my least favorite answer. I simply have a hard time imagining Galladon hopping around planets in order to make some other person a god. But maybe if he was really, truly impressed by the person, and the person already had some godlike powers/responsibilites... If this is the case, the Seventeenth Shard would probably be chasing after Hoid because of the potential information he has, or because they don't know who he is and think he might be a threat. Theory 2, Variation B: They intend for Adonalsium's mind to claim it Somewhere, I read a suggestion that the "element" Hoid mentions in the letter is actually the cognitive aspect of Adonalsium. We know what happened to Adonalsium's power, it shattered into 16 pieces, but what happened to its mind, assuming it had one? Hoid possessing it is an answer I really liked. In fact, that suggestion is another big part of what spawned this theory. I could imagine a difference in philopshy between the Seventeenth Shard and Hoid. Perhaps both want to bring back Adonalsium, but Hoid wants to completely merge together all 16 Shards and bring him back properly, to once again be the nigh-ominpotent god he was. This is viewed as impossible by some (which is why the Person Being Addressed accuses Hoid of arrogance in his quest). The Seventeenth Shard also want to bring back Adonalsium, but they are content to simply create a new Shard for his mind to possess, allowing Adonalsium to come back into the world as simply one of the many Shard-gods, ableit one with balanced intent. Theory 2, Varation C: They intend Aona to claim it This is my favorite varation. I mentioned in another thread that I think Aona's mind is still sticking around, like Kelsier. If this idea is correct, then perhaps the Seventeenth Shard doesn't just contain Elantrians. Perhaps it was founded by them. Now, one could ask, if they were trying to bring back Aona, why would they go to all the trouble of planet hopping and gathering other Splinters? Why not just bring back Aona? Well, maybe they can't. Perhaps when Odium splintered her Shard, he scattered her power in such a way that the remaning Splinters aren't enough to serve as a focus for a reborn Shard. Perhaps he took crucial pieces of her Shard that they'd need. Or perhaps Aona and the Seventeenth know that even love, taken to insane extremes, can be dangerous, and that creating a more balanced intent for Aona will be better in the end. Well, that's it. As I said, this theory is highly speculative, and I suspect most of you are going to be all "uh... maaaaayyybbeee that's the case." But I thought I'd share it anyways. Also, if you have any idea on the Seventeenth Shard yourself, please post it here or in your own threads. I'd love to hear them.

Ah that makes sense. On the other hand, why would a minion of the Vanishers look a begger either? Hmm. It's not as if the guy is dressed like a begger, he's just scruffy like one. Assuming Hoid is the scruffy fellow, perhaps he is one of those "undesirables" due to his unkempt appearance and probably odd behavior.

We see him in some low key situations, but the King's Wit from WoK is certianly not low key. Also, he was apparantly a rather notable storyteller in Warbreaker. I assumed he just wanted to switch to a different accent/nationality in order to make it harder to be recognized.

Is there something odd about me because I love Steris as a character? She's nuts, but I find her very entertaining to read about. A part of me is kind of hoping that somehow, Wax's marriage to her does go through. Where was that indicated? I know Wayne pretended to be a terrismen waiter, but I didn't get indication that all terrismen were relagated to roles like that. I agree. Wax says “It’s only been three hundred years since the Originators, Wayne. We’re all relatives.” This definitely implies that it's a reference to the surviviors of the apocalypse. And Spook must definitely be the Lord Mistborn. There are references to his "reign" in the HoA annotations, and he's the only known Mistborn from the books who survived to potentially have children. It would be very weird for "Lord Mistborn" to refer to a character we'd never even heard of before. EDIT: Almost forgot, but could this be a Hoid appearance? "The bride and groom arrived, and people rose to clap. Lord Joshin and Lady Mi’chelle; Waxillium didn’t know them, though he did wonder why they were speaking with a scruffy man who looked like a beggar, dressed all in black. Fortunately, it didn’t seem Steris intended to drag him over to wait with those intent upon congratulating the newlyweds at the earliest possible moment."

I don't know if Warbreaker was one of the books he was refering to, because while the Returned are indeed resurrected, there were no "deaths and resurrections" during the course of the story. All the Returned had been brought back before the story began, which isn't quite the same thing as having someone die and come back during the main story. The impression I got from that annotation was that we wouldn't just be learning about someone coming back from the dead in the past: it would actually happen to a character we see die. Could happen in Nightblood though. As for Stormlight Archive, if it does happen, I'm guessing it won't be for a while yet, and it will probably be related to some yet unrevealed and highly limited aspect of the magic. Something we know can't be repeated.

Actually, it's funny, because I was recently myself wondering if Stormlight Archive might be one of the series Brandon referenced in that annotation. Look at the chapter 65 epigraph: "They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory." But I'm still not certain. Right now, I'm kind of thinking that Szeth will fight Kaladin and be forced to flee, and that we delay things for a little bit. I know the reaction of some people to that would be "Szeth fleeing? Never." But we know that Szeth is not allowed to seek death, and must do his best to fufill his orders. If he found himself facing a fight he knew he had absolutely no chance of winning (which he easily could, considering an attempt to kill Dalinar could easily find him fighting Kaladin and Adolin at the same time), what would he do? Continue to try and fight them, and die? That's what Szeth would want to do. But wouldn't his honor demand that he flee if possible, and then try to kill Dalinar at another time?

Was Vallano, Szeth's grandfather, also a Truthless? And if not, what did he do to disgrace the Shin? (In case anyone is wondering what the heck I'm talking about, in one of the interludes, Szeth tells someone not to call him Szeth-son-Neturo, because his father does not deserve to be sullied by association with Szeth. Yet Szeth's sectons always start out with a reference to Szeth as "Szeth-son-son-Valleno", and since those chapters are written from Szeth's viewpoint, that must be how Szeth views himself. So he doesn't have an issue with associating himself with his grandfather.)

I don't think it's so much his naivete that hurts him as much as his relative inexperience. Instinctive Awakening helps him a lot, but he's still nowhere near a master of Awakening like Vasher, and in addition to that, he has no real experience fighting in general. Well, if he didn't have such weaknesses, I think he'd probably be even more overpowered than the Lord Ruler. Imagine if Vasher had over 65,000 breaths... I'm actually not sure if Susebron would think to Awaken his opponents clothes, but if he did, he'd be very hard to fight for a lot of people. Afterall, even if a Mistborn decided to fight naked, he/she would still want a bag to hold coins and some sort of cloth or belt to hold extra metal vials. Someone like Szeth or Kaladin would want something to carry extra infused spheres.

I remember that passage. I don't think it means what you're speculating here, though. Of course, that's because it doesn't fit in with my theory about what the spren are (which I'll post once I finish my WoK re-read and post another theory that provides some foundation for it). For now I'll say that I think only a few spren, like Syl, possess Splinters. I think the reason why all other spren are virtually the same individual has to do with the nature of sentience in the cosmere. The closer you are to sentience, the more individual you are, and the farther away from sentience, the more you're just a copy of another. "Animals all act alike," Syl said, but that's not quite true. The more intelligent animals behave in unique ways, such as those special horses whose name I cannot remember how to spell at the moment. But the less intelligent animals do pretty much act alike, and of course something like grass is not unique at all. And one piece of rock is pretty much the same as another. Likewise, most of the spren are all the same.

Nah, I think awakening Shardplate would be either impossible or beyond Susebron's current skill level, so Shardplate wearers would still be able to wear it against him.

Wouldn't that pretty much mean anyone fighting Susebron would fight naked? Since he can awaken things just by voice, and thus could awaken their clothes. Should make for some interesting writeups. Well, I bet Shardplate is immune to Awakening, and so Dalinar and Sadeas wouldn't have to worry about it.

So, I'm in the middle of reading Way of Kings again. This time, I'm, using the mass market paperback instead of the hardback (which I had borrowed from my brother-in-law to read the first time). And I decided I wanted to check out the Shadesmaer illustration. I couldn't find it. It's not at either the front or the back, and oddly enough, it's not even listed on the list of illustrations at the front of the book. Was it intentionally removed from the paperback for some reason? If so, why?

Ah, yah, I remember reading other posts by you mentioning that, it partially inspired this thread. So if it turns out I'm wrong, I'm blaming you! I agree that it's a bit unclear as to whether Raoden actually interacted with a sentient mind in the pool, or just a vague shadow left behind by something. His interactions were too short to make any certain judgements. He did think the pool was a living thing, but he wasn't exactly in a position to make perfect judgements at that time. Still, I kind of like the idea of Aona being still alive in a sense, and it fits in with another idea I have. I have to admit though that pretty much everything I've posted in this thread is on shaky ground. I don't have any real good evidence to point to, so this mostly based on hunches and vague impressions.

Continuing on with my theory threads, I'd like to address some Elantris ideas I have. These theories are related to each other and don't really deserve their own threads, so I'm sticking them together. Let's start with why I think Aona is still hanging around after being killed, and why I think this is important. Aona's dead, but not gone: Before Way of Kings was published, Brandon said that we had encountered 4 Shards in his published works, excluding Ruin/Preservation. He later clarified what he meant. "You've interacted with two directly. One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power. The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence." The general consensus on these boards, that I've seen at least, is that Endowment from Warbreaker is one of the two we've met directly(obviously), Odium is the one whose influence we've seen (it killed the Shards on Sel), Skai's Shard is the one whose power we've seen but not met itself, and Aona's Shard is the other one that we've met directly, via the pool near Elantris. This is what I think is the case, and I assume it is such for this theory. The significence of a certain aspect of that got lost to me though: Aona was dead at the time of Elantris. So how are we interacting with her through the pool? Now, I know one could say that maybe the interaction with her was the same as the way that Dalinar interacted with Honor, that the pool's voice was just some sort of message left behind by Aona when she died. But I don't think that's the case. The pool responded to what was going on in the present. When the first couple Elantrians were put in the pool, they dissolved. When Raoden was put in and said "not yet," he was able to leave and even had his sanity temporarily restored. (Though I don't know if the sanity restoration was the result of Aona or the result of Raoden's willpower). In addition, Aona seemed to be very aware of Raoden's struggle and suffering, and his presence in the pool. Honor, on the other hand, didn't even know for sure that anyone would hear his message. But, I suppose one could wonder why this is even that important. Well, for starters, I think it's an interesting bit of info about the Cosmere. We know Kelsier somehow managed to avoid "going towards the light" after death, but we don't know how precisely. Seeing someone else manage this, especially someone who is actually a former Shard, is intriguing. It also provides some interesting potential insight into the Elantrian religious beliefs, which the book left vague and mysterious. The Elantrians worshiped, or at least revered, Aona, aka Domi. The Elantrians apparantly had a rather curious relationship with the followers of Shu-Korath. This was mentioned in the book itself, with the discussion about the apparant oddity of there being a Korathi chapel built in Elantris itself. More about it was posted Brandon's official site, in some background info given for the Aon Omi jewerly available for purchase. Before I go any further, I should say that for this theory I assume that the fact that one of the Shards on Sel was a love synonym, and the fact that one of the major religions on that world worshiped a god who's symbol was the Aon for love, and who's entire religion was based on the concept of love, is not a coinidence. Basically, I am certain that Domi and Aona are the same, or at the very least the concept of Domi is based on the people's understanding of Aona. This brings to light an interested point, though. What little we know of Elantrian religion implies that they worshiped, or at the very least revered, Aona themselves. They also seemed to devote themselves (no pun intented) to following Aona's Shard's purpose, showing love and compassion to everyone. So why didn't they let anyone know? Why be so secretive about what they believed? You'd think, with them getting along ok with the Korathi church, that at some point they'd come out and say, "Yah, Domi? We actually follow him/her too." But they didn't, and the common people viewed the Elantrians as competing gods, even if the Elantrians themselves didn't seem to care if they were worshipped. I think the answer is because they didn't want to discuss Domi with anyone, for there were certain things about Domi they didn't want to reveal. Specifically, that she was dead. Skai/Aona have been dead for a long, long time. I wish I could find the qoute, but I believe Brandon has confirmed that Aona/Skai died before any of the events of the Elantris. The Reod was not caused by their deaths, in fact, it was just a normal earthquake. I can't find these quotes unfortunately, and if by some chance I prove to be mistaken about them, well, then my ideas here lose some support. But assuming I'm right about those quotes, I think Aona/Skai have been dead since before the very first Elantrians were chosen. Why? Well, there's the stuff I just mentioned in the previous section, about the Elantrians seemingly not wanting to share what they know about Domi. But there's also the fact that AonDor is only known to have failed once, because of the Reod. In Mistborn, the death of Preservation didn't seem to have any effects on Allomancy, but the death of Preservation was the death of the mind controling it. The power itself remained intact and unharmed. In Aona's case, the Shard itself was splintered. I would expect something like this to have some effect on the magic that depends on her power, at least in the immediate aftermath. It would grow weaker, or change in nature slightly, or became unstable. Something. But in all of Raoden's research about AonDor, in all the stories the people had heard about the Elantrians, not once was it ever mentioned that the magic system suffered the slightest hiccup before the earthquake changed the land. Could Aona have been killed and her Shard splintered without any of the Elantrians noticing it and with no effect on the magic? Maybe. But I have more reasons to believe Aona has been dead for a while. There's also the fact that the Shaod is set up to occur automatically, without Aona's oversight. Given that it is still happening after her death, that is clear. Now, it's possible that Aona originally picked those who became Elantrians, but then changed the Shaod shortly before she died, so that it would continue to function after her death. But we've heard nothing to indicate that the types people taken by the Shaod changed at any point in time. Could an automatic process have done as good a job at picking people as Aona herself? Well, maybe she set up the process to be automatic from the start, even while she was alive. But why would she do that? Wouldn't she want to be careful about the people given such divine power? In thebackgroundfor the Aon Ehe jewerly, we find out that the city of Elantris was not built by the Elantrians. It was already there when the first people settled in Arelon. Sometime after this, the first people were taken by the Shaod. Why am I bringing that up? Because it indicates that the city was built by Aona herself, quite a while before it was needed. To me, at least, it implies that she was planning ahead, that she was setting things up so that as soon as the first Elantrians were chosen, there would already be a place for them, even if Aona was no longer around to give them one. I think Aona knew she was going to die, or knew that there was a good chance it would happen, and ensured that her successors, the Elantrians, could devote themselves to the people in her place. I also think that when she was killed, her devotion to her people allowed her to figure out a way to keep her spirit from passing on, so that she could continue to provide some guideance, at least in some small way. I'm afraid that I don't think I've phrased my thoughts in this thread as well as I wanted to, but it's late, I'm tired, and I want to get it posted. I'll see what other people think.

It would be to big a coincidence otherwise, I think. I doubt Brandon would use a name so likely to cause confusion if it wasn't supposed to refer to Marsh.

Ironeyes was a nickname for Marsh even before he became an Inquisitor. A rather prophetic nickname, in a way. But I expect he probably did replace his other eye spike, or had it returned by Sazed. EDIT: The thing I found most interesting about the broadsheet was the "Is there life across the ocean?" part. Brandon mentioned several times in his Mistborn annotations that there were people living at the other pole, and also confirmed that they somehow managed to find a way to protect themselves from the sun and survive the end of the world. I always got the feeling that he was hinting at something very ominous involving those people in future books.