Rg2045

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/478/#e15129 I looked for this just for you

Starts more and new fun after all we are on top of the bones of the first posters

I think we should close this one and start a new maybe every 1000 pages so that there is a winner

That’s the only problem with the theory, but the herirocacy did falsify a lot of the data so maybe?

1. Tied with Dalinar and kaladin 2. Elend 3. Hoid I promise I like a lot of the characters but I always like people that 1) have to learn to lead 2) make things happen behind the scenes so I just feel like these three characters just fit the best

It was used in desolations and in the false desolation but the WoB said that the enslavement of the parshment happened decades before the recreance and the vision Dalinar had was Of the recreance. So it can’t be the False desolation so what war was it then? Who were they fighting? also that’s why the spren hates humans, for betraying them. But why do the humans hate the radiants? Maybe for a near genocide? For enforcing an imperial rule onto the land? For fracturing an economy that’s been in place over 1000 years? We don’t know for sure except that the recreance happened 20+ years after the false desolation. However killing tens of thousands of people In a city sounds like a hatable act

So I started my relisten of the stormlight archive and I was once again thrown into the the amazing setting the shattered plains. So i just let thoughts of how this could have happen, and more importantly why it happened. so now I have a theory that I’ll present right now. its under the assumption that the shattering of the plains are caused by use of a dawnshard rather then the splintering of honor. I think that the shattered plains was caused by the knights radiants due to one of the silver kingdoms 1) going to war with them or 2) harboring the listeners hear me out. 1) constantly we hear in book one and two that the knights radiants “betrayed us” (after RoW I thought that it was because they betrayed the spren but it can’t be, sense most people didn’t understand/care for spren outside of the knights) 2) in book one there is an ancient passage where a king talks about traveling through the oathgates to talk to the Knights in alethela about the excessively high tax to use the gates. within this passage he talks about how they were starting to show their true nature. Showing that without the desolations the knights were falling into a more dominant kingdom and possibly self serving. 3) the recreance was a sudden stop that happened within a couple of days that’s as said caused a genocide Of 8 orders of spren. 4) the sibling was not bonded and the tower was locked by the knights 4b) it should be noted that the sibling lost the ability to hear honors tone and in so doing lost the ability to make tower light but was most likely still bonded as the sibling didn’t trust people but was still bonded to milishi who created the device to prevent anyone from accessing the main tower room. That used that’s right stormlight not towerlight 5) we know the recreance wasn’t because of the binding of BAM nor the enslavement of the singers due to this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12242 5b) as per the WoB we can assume that milishi was dead by the time the recreance happened and never broke his oaths. 5c) this also puts into perspective the battle at Firestone keep, they weren’t fighting singers. But humans 6) there is one radiant order that is still around that has division as one of its surges. so this is what I think happened. they trapped BAM and hurt the sibling making them unable to produce towerlight at the same time lobotomize the singers. They are probably relieved/horrified about what happened to their ancient enemy. They then can’t live in the tower due to it holding an unmade And no bondsmith so they make the most sane choice right? They lock the oathgates and basically fracture the economy across roshar. this of course causes outrage and different knights orders start fighting rather each other or united against the the rest of roshar It’s a slaughter and oaths are said in such a way to allow it to continue. (Ex I’ll protect the people of alethela against any threat) I believe that natanatan was the leader of the insurrection and in order to permanently stop the war a team of skybreakers went to the capital and used a dawnshard along with the surge division and destroy natanatans capital. after the other orders heard it they decided that the time of knights radiants was over and chose with their spren to end their oaths. Not realizing that they will kill their spren. The skybreakers keep to their oaths possibly uncaring( should be known that the 4th ideal is a crusade) or because they saw what happened to the spren. Now you might not be convinced completely but I have one last piece of evidence. It was in one of the visions honor tells Dalinar that odium knows that left by themselves that humans will destroy each other. I think that was the plan to let humans continue to fight with thousands of shardblades killing each other and basically being a desolation all by themselves. Reducing their technology so that the final desolation can come in and easily take over.

We know that those that are bonded with spren are more invested than others sense their spiritual web itself is merged with the sprens. maybe that’s the difference sense zahel doesn’t seem to hear screams when he uses a blade in practice

I’m unsure about the nightwatcher but the stormfather was created before the shattering and the sibling was created by cultivation and honor via RoW to face against odium.

That’s a good combo

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7847 @CrypticSpren its a WoB that says it’s a possibility

I searched around for it but found nothing so I started the discussion. I thought that Dia-Gonarthis was the one tormenting the Davar family or maybe it bonded shallans mother sense we know the unmade can bond with people

I love dark chocolate especially when it’s mostly milk chocolate

That is one theory especially sense odium seems more bent on corrupting Other magic system That’s a good idea wonder why we haven’t seen much more of her lately

Oh I figured I just asked the question so that I didn’t have to go back and look for 1)where it was 2) who said it funny enough the only thing that changed for me is that I started using torture methods to figure out the truth. As I don’t feel like it’s right to torture an innocent for a common man

So this post is more, what was each of the unmades purpose in the war effort, rather then if they are originally splinters of odium or honor or cultivation. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Unmade Is a link to the unmade coppermind For a refresher On each of the unmade. Ashertmarm the one that causes people to become gluttons. I think his purpose was to soften areas like kolinar weaken the leadership to make it easier to capture. I think that’s why leadership read “The Way of Kings” to be in a better position to bond a spren to be resistant to unmade influence. Ba-Ado-Mishram (BAM) as far as we know the smartest of the unmade with abilities to “connect” with the singers A commander in the war and possibly led the troops when odium couldn’t. I think the roll is now taken by the everstorm in a smaller capacity. Chemoarish nothing is known for certain Dai-Gonarthis Steals emotions. Especially guilt it seems Maybe to pacify conquer people. Or to make champions of people especially ones that have excessive guilt. Moelach Mr.death rattles This is the one I was thinking of that started this post. I think the death rattles were used to clog up the future vision for honor and/or cultivation. Possibly giving them information to manipulate them. Nergaoul The thrill possibly used to intensify the battles to unsettle the radiants who were immune to the effects. Re-shephir The midnight mother Most likely used to wipe out small towns as seen in Dalinar visions or maybe to handle battles where there wasn’t any radiants Sja-anat the corrupter/enlightener of spren most like used to turn spren to odiums side wile using them as scouts Yelig-nar Can do all 10 surges most likely an assassin creature or a champion used to turn the tide in battles. Seems like a one man army

Yo when did this debate fly off the rails? This isn’t the place to talk about absolute morality and religion and whose religion is needed to judge this situation. are you talking about hogman parable? Because if that’s the case I wonder why you say I don’t understand when in past posts I’ve said the exact same thing. How would you punish an innocent to punish the guilty? Also if the murder was a king how diss it change? if it’s our king then that’s when the advance interrogation techniques come in. 3 men will have the same story and one will not. If it wasn’t our king we give the nation the suspects and any information we have for them to pass judgment ___________________________ undertext rg2045 will not comment on absolute morality as morality is too fluid a subject for humans to properly gauge also the jasnah debate is not one that RG2045 will get into here due to it not being the proper forum as well as it not even being related to the Hogman problem. As one has to do with actions and intent and the other judgement and the value of an innocent

I held off on commenting on this subject because I don’t want to be as confrontational as I can be at times. Especially when the subject is clearly close to you personally. my only retorts would be does the descendants have to pay for what their ancestors did? shouldn’t they be looking for how to co-exist with one another instead of harboring anger for actions over a millennia ago? also about population, If I remember correctly earth own population has had a big boom over the last 2,000 years

March 29th this year whoop whoop

I did after all these posts

I guess a bit of new blood in a Worn out competition could invigorate the veterans

Ah a day break, now back to the philosophy and/or mud flinging @Returned unsure why you wanted to disprove the 0.5% claim mostly because it was a point in your favor but definitely take a look at statistics of murder cases that are “closed” it’s a vary disheartening reality.especially when you realize that murder cases in big cities are more prioritized. anyways I did the whole comparison thing as a pro/cons to a more “strict” (arguably bias/corrupt) judicial system to a more lenient one. And I’m sorry I’m better at presenting facts in person. When I’m Writing my mind splits off from my main point and I end up with the beginning of one sentence and the end of another making my argument seem choppy when I’m trying to make (what I feel like) is a simple point. like for example I remember hearing of one country that was relatively peaceful. But it was due to the strict but fair laws. caught stealing lose a hand. Steal again another hand. I don’t remember the county but I remember the principal. But it doesn’t matter that I know it, mostly because I lack the ability to know if it was real, how stable was the country, how did it fall, were those the laws or just morals people followed. I can’t ask questions without losing my original thought as to why I asked it. In other words you’re right this isn’t the place to have long deep philosophical or meaningful debate. More a place to paint yourself on whatever side of the philosophical spectrum you reside on. I don’t follow the philosophy, I don’t follow any really. I just like to pull apart different ideas and study them to an extreme. Some I’ll adopt others I’ll discard, but my world view is a paradoxical bubble. Something that I feel each person is to an extent. Anyone that’s too far one way or another ultimately can’t function, or falls into villainy. also thoughts on the lone stranger dilemma. I say wile being the public image and condemning/planting evidence against the stranger you should secretly help the person leave town before something happens. Tell them that the town thinks he did it and that they are unreasonable and will try to kill him. If he stays he knows what he signed himself for. If he leaves then the town doesn’t riot and you just place a wanted sign in the town. If it’s more modern day then you simply don’t do anything. Just try to pacify the crowd. Now the final question if there is such thing as definitive proof. I would say no. You could say all evidence is Circumstantial. Memory? Way to unreliable, it’s chemical makeup changes every time you think of the thought. We live in a world where anything can be fake, half truths, or twisted to convince people whatever you want to convince them of.

@Returned I think I understand you more. And I’ll use a poor example that shows the strength and weakness of my argument. The USA has an “innocent till proven guilty” policy and if I remember correctly about 50% of murders in Miami go nowhere. But people believe that 0.5% of people in prison are innocent. where as Japan has a 99% conviction rate. And an estimated 1500 per year that are most likely innocent about 3% of the people convicted are innocent by one study. USA is considered 36th in the most dangerous country of the world where as Japan is considered 153th place literally in the top 10 most peaceful countries. so peaceful that it’s not unnatural to see a 4 year old doing errands by themselves. @Frustration I now see the fulfillment of your name. I can respect that you don’t trust government, and that you and I can’t agree in this subject. So I’ll just put a stop here but I feel like I can’t talk to you about this because it goes against core principles in my life. @CameronUluvara thank you for summing up a complicated problem in an unbiased way. My father taught me the basics of utilitarianism and it’s really hard to disprove using straight logic.

A weak king is a bad king

@Returned I do apologize but I feel like you’re mind is to bent on saving the individual. While each life is priceless it starts to get tricky when you try to weigh judgment on criminals. without contradicting morals let’s run a small simulation. criminal A kills citizen A so that would be infinite minus infinite that by simple deduction equals 0 meaning that killing the murderer would be fair right? Expect that’s not how infinite works infinite is endless so that means no matter what a person does (if their life is priceless that is) it is drastically unfair to ever punish anyone So instead let’s calculate lives by a constant where a person has value of 1 criminal A kills citizen A 1-1=0 so the value of criminal A is now zero therefore making it “just” to kill Criminal A or at the vary least not a negative. now let’s do the situation criminal A,B,C kills Citizen A and we don’t know who Criminal ABC is because we know the suspects as 1,2,3,4. so an acceptable equation I suspect would be ((3-1)/3) = value of the lives of the conspirators. 1= the value of the innocent. X= punishment 2/3+2/3 +2/3 +1= Of course 3 that means as a group they have a value of 3 so you cannot kill them but punishment can be dealt that’s acceptable about 1/4 of the death penalty. So maybe by being enslaved. Maybe by banishment. Maybe being hung in the high storm. Maybe imprisonment. maybe a huge debt that’s placed on the men to payback the family of the deceased. We don’t know cuz we haven’t placed a value on punishment except execution. but that’s one way of thinking. Let’s say that the problem is that innocent doesn’t deserve the punishment, as you said is truly the issue. Well the punishment of killing is death. And nobody except taravangian has said to kill all of them. And we know that would be unfair because the innocent doesn’t deserve death. Even tho the other men do. So the ruler in the parable imprisoned all 4 that of course is unfair because the innocent doesn’t deserve it, but it is more fair then death because of hope. So you keep moving the dial until you can live with the injustice that you are inflicting upon the innocent man. If you are unable to inflict any punishment then you’ll be wise to relinquish your position to someone that understands that the person doesn’t deserve death but the criminals don’t deserve freedom.