Ale the Metallic Conjurer

The necessary conditions for becoming a god and the circumstances for Vin becoming a god are explained in Secret History.

Major spoilers for Secret History

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

WoB (there are many, but this one sums it up):

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Xyrd (paraphrased)

You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and usually without knowing why.

Xyrd (paraphrased)

Is chromium involved in that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

This reminds me of a major plot point in the Gargoyles universe. In the Gargoyles TV show there’s a magical island named Avalon. Going to Avalon is easy. But a visitor going home from Avalon is insanely difficult, and was the driving force for much of Season 2. Avalon doesn’t take you where you want to go, Avalon sends you where you need to be. And the visitor doesn’t know why.

It’s funny you linked the lerasium WoB. I was just thinking about why Hoid didn’t take the last two lerasium beads. I’m thinking Hoid’s Fortune had a vague sense of Preservation’s plan needing Elend to burn the last bead, and knew something bad would happen if he took it.

On 5/2/2024 at 6:22 AM, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory.

You will get more in this in Stormlight Archive

To our current (incomplete) understanding (because Fortune is a Huge RAFO) - Fortune is the term for a Mortal drawing on Futuresight (possibly with a side of "instinct" such as Hoid's repeated "I know I need to be here, but I don't know why").

 

I’m excited for Stormlight!!!

I should discuss Fortune whenever I come across it. Though now I’m interested in that “instinct” of Hoid. Where’d you learn it from?

On 5/5/2024 at 5:02 AM, Y F-N said:

Interesting ideas!

I personally believe that this particular instance has less to do with futuresight shenanigans and more to do with the fact that while Ruin has near-infinite power, his ability to pay attention to things is more finite. (Certainly far bigger than regular people, but he still can't consciously think about everything at once.) So, during the time in which Kelsier was interfering with Urteau, Ruin was far more focused on Vin. He wasn't paying attention to what was going on with Urteau in his futuresight because he simply didn't care as much about Urteau as he cared about the events in Fadrex City.

These in particular are very intriguing. I'm sure those ideas and their connection to futuresight are going to be bouncing around in my head for a while. You might be on to something.

I think I have a sightly different idea about Ruin’s failure in Urteau. 

I appreciate the compliment!

6 hours ago, Y F-N said:

I think if any Shard is at play here, it's actually Preservation. An entire society, remaining stagnant, never changing, being forever Preserved in a state of the past. It's kind of Preservation taken to the extreme. I recall in one of Kelsier's conversations with Preservation in Secret History that Preservation says he admires what the Lord Ruler created.

That would make the most sense. However, it appears Sanderson (bafflingly imo) went the direction of Preservation being the force of protection rather than stagnation. And instead, he pins all the Lord Ruler's Shard driven atrocities onto Ruin. In fact, while Fuzz likes the Lord Ruler because of his immortality and bringing of stability, it was mentioned he disagrees with the Lord Ruler's actions. 

The Lost Metal Prologue

I just finished the prologue of The Lost Metal. And Joe turned purple. And Wayne said some disturbing stuff. And Wayne was a messed up kid. It all goes downhill from here.

There was a passage where Wayne’s ma said “He flew. Using his Allomantic powers. Jak can fly, and talk to birds, and eat rocks.” I know this is a bedtime story that comes from the pulp (and delusions) of Allomancer Jak’s stories. And iirc his stories have a talking bird companion (delusion, lie, or kandra ). Though after SH I’m curious on whether or not Handerwym - a Connecter Ferring - could technically give Jak the power to talk to birds.

I know from SH that telepathy seems to stem from Connection shenanigans. Ruin telepathically speaks to Hemalurgic constructs through Connections facilitated by spikes. Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow spoke to Vin’s mind through his Connections to her, and did the same to Vin and Spook as a Vessel of Preservation. 

Is Handerwym able to manipulate Connection to telepathically speak to people or animals? Can he somehow extend the same power to Jak? 

On 4/22/2024 at 10:16 AM, Lord Spirit said:

Just wanted to add, there's potentially an additional example of wyrns foresight, which happens when the captain of the Elantris city gaurd is at the gate when Hrathen needs to leave Elantris, which he mentions as a "coincidence". But it's another example of a random person being at the right place at the right time for an unexplained reason (the captain would have no reason to expect someone would leave Elantris as it's never happened). I'm not sure how Wyrn would have arranged this, as Dilaf was unaware of Hrathens plan (he was shocked when he was Hrathen return); It would probably be from the direct influence of Jaddeth (autonomy?). 

Interesting theory. Though it might be a normal coincidence, not brought into fruition by foresight or Fortune. Shard futuresight is… complicated. So Wyrn definitely can’t arrange the future perfectly. 

Making one last post about this before I move onto The Lost Metal, Warbreaker and Stormlight.

So after reading about Kelsier's precognitive plan for Marsh to remove Vin's earring, I speculated on a factor of Preservation vs. Ruin futuresight. I think the Vessels of Preservation see future possibilities that Ati:

1. saw as unlikely possibilities but Ati acted upon - the frail possibility of Vin defeating Ruin.
2. saw as unlikely possibilities and Ati dismissed - Elend sacrificing himself to drive Vin to murder-suicide.
3. future possibilities Ati didn't see at all - the true meaning of the Terris Prophecies.

I don't know which category applies to "the few lines of light" that could save Urteau or get the Shard to Vin, or Marsh taking out Vin's earring because of Spook's message.

I think the Vessels of Preservation saw these unlikely possibilities or possibilities not in Ati's futuresight web, liked them best or felt they were necessary, and did whatever they could to thread towards the gambled possibilities in hopes they could come true. Some gambled possibilities of which are unlikely, fragile, frail to the Vessels of Preservation themselves - the true meaning of the Terris Prophecies, atium Mistings burning all of Ruin's body, Vin defeating Ruin. Also, a member of the Ire implied coincidences are caused by someone drawing upon Fortune. So I think Fortune + more possibilities in Preservation's futuresight web = better plans from its Vessels.

I also think Leras' futuresight had a number of important touchstones:

1. The Well cycle is on a fixed schedule which could be assumed as a given when he started designing his plans.
2. He has invested more of himself into the Scadrians than Ruin had.
3. Leras listens to the hearts of men. He hears the thoughts of all Scadrians, and not just those of the mad or spiked. This telepathic ability is so all-encompassing that Kelsier "knew" Goradel because of the power of Preservation, despite never knowing him. 
4. Ruin is trapped and can only influence texts, the unstable or spiked. Leras is comparatively free to influence the world.
5. A significant portion of Ruin's investiture is separated and placed in the Pits.
6. The Mists cover the world daily and are capable of obeying Leras' instructions like mass Snapping and empowering Vin against the LR.

An interesting thing I noticed was that Kelsier realized only when Sazed took the Shards that he's the Hero of Ages. This could be a hint that Leras knew his true desire for the Terris Prophecies and that the Hero of Ages might appear in the distant future. But he didn't know who the Hero of Ages would be, possibly not even in Sazed's lifetime. But he did whatever he could to thread towards it. This would be consistent with the fact foreseeing a mortal's cause of death isn't infallible in Preservation's futuresight web, so I can only imagine how cloudy it was for Leras to predict Vessel succession would happen after the deaths of himself, Vin and Ati.

I wonder if a big part of this has to do with how the Shards "remember" their Vessels' personalities. Fuzz at least remembers what seems to be Leras' desire to protect the planet. To say that the Shard doesn't "remember" Ati is an understatement. I wonder if Ati's Ruin was once more much more dangerous and precognitively able.

I hope The Lost Metal shows how good Harmony is at seeing the future.
 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

More fragile or more concealed? Ruin didn't care about Mist-Snapped until Elend discovered that they are all Allomancers - only then Ruin ordered his Koloss to attack Fadrex to wipe them out. But that was just before Vin's Ascension, if that were to happen earlier, if there were Mistborn among those Mist-Snapped, all would have realized what's going on much earlier, Ruin would have kill them all much earlier as well and nobody would be able to prevent 300,000 Koloss from killing all those inexperienced Mistborn and other Allomancers. All of those electrum Misting would have been killed long before they would get a chance to ingest Atium. 

And once again, per WoB it takes considerably more power to snap people into Mistborn - more than what it takes to snap them into 15 types of Mistsings. It's simply too much to ask from Mists, who had to work autonomously on their own, to snap Mistborn into existence. Then there would be no 16, as now you have only 2 types of snapped - Mistborn and electrum Mistings.

So you’re trying to say the Mistsnapping plan was a gambit to hide atium Allomancy from Ruin and the Mistings until the right moment. I’ll admit, that is pretty smart. Confusing but smart.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

Remember, the knowledge of the Shard comes into a new Vessel gradually, not all at once. It takes some time for a Vessel to comprehend what's going on, even though their mind is greatly expanded. Shards aren't omniscient. Vin was Preservation's Vessel for less than a day, Kelsier for much longer. Moreover Vin had no idea there was any plan set up by Preservation at all, she didn't know she can look for something like that (and conscious searching is what makes Vessels learn things Shards know), while Kelsier knew there was some plan - Leras was constantly repeating that, he even saw glimpses of it when Leras showed him the future. Vin was far more focused on what's here and now and how to prevent imminent destruction. While she figured out Ruin was incomplete as well, she didn't know that's part of the plan, as she didn't know there was any plan. She hadn't been Preservation's Vessel for long enough to figure stuff out and comprehend the knowledge Shard possessed, or maybe even to comprehend the future sight itself. She was too fresh for it, too inexperienced and overwhelmed, while also being under constant pressure from Ruin. When Kelsier Ascended Ruin mostly ignored that, he was still focused on Vin the most so Kelsier had more freedom than Vin had as after Vin's Ascension Ruin stopped focusing on her only when he discovered where Atium is. 

This is evident from HoA epigraphs, where Sazed often says that he doesn't yet know something, or writes about what he believes or speculates to be the truth, not what he knows when he should have known. Plus we have WoBs that talk about it.

I don’t think “time” is at all relevant to Vin vs Kelsier’s knowledge of Preservation’s plans. Vin held Preservation for two days in a stable form. And iirc it was only days between Vin meeting Yomen in chains & Elend confronting Preservation, to Vin’s battle against the 13 Inquisitors. Between which Kelsier unreliably held Preservation, so that only lasted days.  Not to mention there’s Sazed… who created the Words of Founding within a few minutes of holding Harmony.

Ruin did not ignore Kelsier. He was actively blocking Kelsier’s attempts to influence the world, and was easily damaging Kelsier because of his frayed divinity. Kelsier didn’t have as much freedom as you claim, couldn’t control the power in most moments, and he was almost killed by Ruin at multiple points. Kelsier only had the barest, little word hints that Preservation had a plan - “the Hero,” “the sign,” “the plan,” “sixteen.” And he wasn’t actively trying to find out if Ruin was weakened, or where his body is, or where the atium is.

Before her first action as Preservation, Vin  seemingly spent hours floating around, exploring the world, knowing and learning things attached to the power. And unlike Kelsier, she was actively trying to figure out Ruin’s weakened state and the location of the atium cache. I say it again, this is definitely just a discrepancy between early Brandon and modern Brandon writing about Shards. The frayed, damaged Vessel-Kelsier only focused on giving the Shard to Vin automatically processed the atium Misting plan the moment Ruin said “atium.” There’s no in-universe reason Vessel-Vin couldn’t have done the same.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

If Rashek were to survive and Ascend again (just as Leras hoped for) nothing would happen for another 1024 years. Rashek was also the Hero, just like Vin was. That's why I believe the plan was more general, not specific. It was meant to be set in motion once Ruin is released, no matter when.

I heavily disagree but this is a fair take. It’s just some stuff are such a precise abnormality - like what Leras did to Kelsier and Elend - that it doesn’t seem like anything else besides part of the plan.

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

I do take offense! If we start to ignore and cherry pick WoBs because they don't fit our personal beliefs, then we're stepping into shaky grounds of confirmation bias. We should be shaping our opinions based on available data, not on our wishes. I see no reason to dismiss those WoBs, Brandon planned his work far in advance, he wrote all Mistborn books at the same time, back to back, before releasing any of them, that was done specifically to pre-plan it all. Brandon has not retconed this, nor did he said something contradictory later on, those WoBs stand true.

??????

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "

Ahhh. That is a clever sidestep from Sanderson and Harmony.

Very interesting. Hmmm. I don't mean to turn this into a rant but Sazed's Connection to Ruin is definitely something I wanna flesh out in fanfic. It feels like wasted potential especially now that Harmony is repressing Hemalurgy instead of embracing it. It's not noticeable or nuanced enough, especially since Ruin's existence and magic shouldn't still be in this weird, Morgoth-esque framework. It feels very... weak compared to the experiences of Wax or Kelsier. 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Possibly - I always took it to be closer to how Harmony communicated with Wax in BoM. Sazed is injured and dying, and already has a Connection to Preservation. In my head-canon Fuzz can whisper this because he is getting close to the threshold and there was enough Connection to bridge the gap (much like Kelsier and Spook after he removed the spike, now that I think of it). 

The weird thing is Preservation can't whisper to minds who are unstable. Kelsier could bridge the gap w/ Connection because the Vessel was Connected to Spook. Harmony communicated with Wax because Wax's soul/idea/whatever was in the Cognitive Realm.

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

The Latter is part of the explanation for the former. I beleive that Leras set up the prophesies so that the majority of the possibilities he foresaw ended in teh same result - a Human able to take up Preservation and being able to Destroy in order to Protect Scadrial. We just happened to read the story of the one that happened )but not necessarily the only one that could have worked). It's a Batman Gambit because many of the permutation relied upon Ati acting like Ruin (rather than acting like Ati before being consumed by his shard's intent). He didn;t just plan on Ruin not catching the details, he planned for Ruin's changes (sign of 16, etc.), his manipulations, and his tendancy to gloat when he thought all danger was passed and he had won. 

That all makes sense. I believe the prophecies were purposely set up as vague to hide layers from Ruin and his futuresight. As you said, the sign of 16 meant he planned for Ruin to change the Mists. His manipulations... I guess that could be part of the Batman Gambit. After all he showed Kelsier visions of them. How is Ruin's tendency to gloat part of all this?

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Possible, I guess - but Vin's reaction to what happens is less than a minute after his beheading - not much further forward than a normal use of Atium. Not to mention his huge Connection to Vin amplifying how he could interpret her possible responses. I find it more likely that he saw only a few possibilities and all or most ended with her sacrifice to stop Ruin. 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Only if they were trying to access Futuresight at the same time. . . 

 

I too find it more likely Elend was seeing only a few possibilities. Though tbf even if he did see "thousands upon thousands" of possibilities, Vin wasn't experiencing time in the same way as Elend. Vin also might've been seeing many more possibilities than Elend did. I'm gonna speculate that a mortal seeing into a Shard's future, even if they're hugely connected to the Shard or Vessel, is far more cloudy than the opposite.

I'm also gonna speculate that Vessel-Vin and Ruin's futuresight was a passive power, not something that needs to be activated like a magic system. I say this because when Vessel-Kelsier saw into the future it was worded like something he was just "doing" throughout the Urteau incident, not something he activated at a specific moment. The same idea seems to apply to Fuzz seeing into Kelsier's future. 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:

Glad you enjoyed the story and I hope it improved your opinion of Era 1.

Will you move on to the Lost Metal next, or save that for after other Cosmere?

Note: The Lost Metal has (arguably) the most Cosmere references so far, as well as spoilers for Stormlight Archive 2-4. That said, you would not be the first person I have known to read it before Stormlight Archive. 

It did improve my opinion of Era 1. Though I'm still not a fan of Ruin's Intent being the fundamental opposite to stasis. I've warmed up to the Intent itself but not... that. Or the idea Ruin was so way too woefully behind Preservation in the 4D chess game. I might end up writing a fanfic where Ruin is the god of chaos lmao. With a bit of a roleswap where Ruin is the protagonist or good guy with The Plan, or at least much smarter than canon. 

The Lost Metal is next. 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

This, this is precisely why it matters. Atium doesn't fit. Everyone in the world always wondered about how weird Atium is compared to other metals and that was a clue that Elend and Vin needed to realize something weird is happening. 

... I still don't get it. It's vague and the army of Mistings were easily more fragile than creating an army of Mistborn. Plus, the Mists already Snapped people into regular Mistings, so at least that bunch could've been Mistborn while the rest were atium Mistings. But I guess that's why it was a 'fragile distant maybe." I guess Shards make plans completely different than us mortals. 

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

Vin didn't know Leras' plan. She was surprised that Elend somehow found a whole army capable of burning Atium. She had no idea what was needed to be done. HoA ch 81:

Well... this is awkward. But tbf it’s a bit fuzzy since it was long before we knew of Kelsier’s time as Preservation. There might be discrepancies between how Vin learned of the plan VS how modern Brandon might write for a new Vessel. If modern Sando wrote Vin's Ascension, he would've wrote out that Vin learned Leras' plan for atium Mistings the moment she saw/learned these things - Rashek's storage caverns and strategies to hide atium, his use of the Well, Ruin's power hidden in atium, and the Pits of Hathsin themselves.

Remember that modern Brandon wrote out that Kelsier - the very unfitting Vessel - learned Leras' plan the moment Ruin uttered the word "atium." Kelsier, who wasn't even trying to delve into the "atium" thing unlike Vin.

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

He did that every 1024 years, he prepared someone to take up the power to use it to maintain the status quo. This was solely because his mind was gone and he was unable to remember what his end plan was. He didn't act because of his plan, he acted because he wanted to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered for him at this point. He only hoped that once Ruin escapes, his plan would be enough to stop him, not knowing what it was. Just go back and reread the first few chapters. Leras keeps repeating that Ruin can't escape, that Vin has to use the power and he is working only to prepare Vin for her role in maintaining the prison. He was totally stunned and frightened when Rashek died. Leras was dead at this point, he was unable to work on his plan that he didn't remember. Kelsier was just a happy accident that ultimately proved to be what his plan needed.  

The thing with Rashek wasn't pre-planned action, it was a last ditch attempt to stop Alendi from freeing Ruin after Leras had realized that Alendi won't do what he should have done. It happened with Vin as well - Sazed was Leras' failed attempt to stop Vin from freeing Ruin, but this time Ruin was ready for it and had Marsh in a position to stop Sazed - something that he missed during Alendi's times. 

I don't believe that Preservation's plan was specifically about Vin and Sazed, rather it was general enough to help people win against Ruin, no matter when Ruin is freed. If Vin were to use the power of the Well instead of releasing it, the plan would still exist 1024 years later and other people would be there to act on it. The plan was just a hope, a hope that people would see clues left for them and use them against Ruin. It might not have worked as well as it worked with Vin and Sazed, but there would still be people capable of doing what was necessary to do - because all people on Scadrial have both Ruin and Preservation on them, all are capable to destroy to protect just like Vin did, all are capable to understand the nature of both Shards as they all are made of their essence.

That's also how the future sight works, it gives you possibilities, not certain futures. Predicting how one specific person would be able to Ascend seems too much, but predicting someone, sometime will do this, if proper actions are taken and clues are left for them feels just right to me. If Alendi were to free Ruin, who knows, it might have ended with Rashek as a dual-Vessel. Or maybe Kwaan who back then played the same role as Sazed? Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed. In different times there would be others like them.

Leras' ultimate goal - likely his interpretation of Preservation - was not to maintain the status quo. It was to protect Scadrial. If he wanted to maintain the status quo, Scadrial wouldn't have reached early industrial tech before Rashek's Ascension.

I feel like you're ignoring a lot of things. The Plan wasn't to keep the prison active. The Plan was to thread towards a human who can Ascend to both Preservation and Ruin. And even though Leras lost his mind over millennia, he still needed to actively act. He was still cognitive enough to hear all thoughts, know all of Ruin's manipulations of minds, and talk to all passing souls in the Cognitive Realm. Kelsier's Survival was too much of an abnormality to just be a happy accident. You're seriously telling me no one in the history of Scadrial wanted to live as much as Kelsier or be revived? We should be seeing Cognitive Shadows and Survives handed out like candy, if what Leras did to Kelsier was just an "accident."

I'm also not convinced Leras immediately became the impotent Fuzz from SH. Impotent compared to Leras before the imprisonment, but not that impotent. And how can there be the Hero without any circumstances for the Hero to arise? How can there be the Hero or atium Misting army if there's a tyrant more powerful than the Hero, or if atium isn't well known and sought out? I believe those were the roles of Rashek and his death, even if Fuzz didn't remember. 

I also think Leras wanted Ruin to be released, eventually. How can the Hero of Ages use both Shards if the capabilities of one are still restricted?

I agree that The Plan can generally be described as a hope. I don't think Preservation specifically planned for Vin and Sazed but some things in the plan feel too precise for Leras to just be picking anyone each cycle. Vin, Rashek, and Alendi didn't hold the future of the entire world on their arms. They weren't so intricately connected to the Terris people, and their  struggles, and their wishes. And remember, Scadrians don't understand both Shards just because they're made of both Investitures. It's why Sazed is so notable among the Terris people. Vin till the moment of her death saw Ruin as nothing more than a force of death and destruction. Even Kelsier saw Ruin as this. 

I think Leras knew Rashek or Alendi weren't self-sacrificial the way Vin could be.

On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:

Rashek was the prophesied Hero of the Ages - as per Terris original prophecies (WoB above). In my opinion Rashek, Vin and Sazed were all Hero of the Ages, but each had a different role to play. If Rashek took up the power again, he would have prevented Ruin from escaping, delaying the plan for another 1024 years - and that's what Leras at this time wanted. You said it yourself, Leras was at this point just a shadow of a Vessel he once was, his mind was mostly gone and he was unable to act on the plan he created himself. The plan was meant to give people hope and a fighting chance against Ruin without Leras's intervention, as he knew he would be dead by that point. 

No offense, but I think I would prefer to ignore those WoBs about Alendi. They're very early in Brandon's career and there's nothing in-story that suggests Leras was grooming Alendi to take the Shard. 

As for Rashek being the Hero of Ages.... just no. In my opinion. I think Brandon has been very clear that Sazed is the Hero of Ages. Not Vin, or Alendi, or Rashek, or Kelsier. It is Sazed. I think Leras had enough knowledge of their thoughts, Connections, and futures to know how the trajectory of their lives' could play into Connections to both Shards. 

You're ignoring that Leras actively facilitated the plan throughout human history i.e. hid gems in all religions for the Hero. He didn't just do some things before the imprisonment and dipped. Remember this is the same guy who creates Cognitive holograms to communicate to every dying soul in the Cognitive Realm.

On 4/16/2024 at 6:24 PM, hwiles said:

This is the literal kindest and coolest response back to my post as is possible. Elend is my favorite character, I just also am hyper aware of how annoying other people can think him to be for...reasons that can be self evident if or when needed...totally agree with you.

That's how conversations should be. Kind and cool! Hope to see you around the Shard more often! Hopefully I can post more often after finishing TLM.

I totally get you about Elend

On 8/17/2022 at 1:34 AM, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

I think that part of the message is that kelsier was sickeningly destructive. Preservation is good because his inherent intent is the protection of humanity. One thing i really like about the well of acension is that it shows the fallout of overthrowing a long established government. You are left seriously asking if that much death is worth it. Thus it makes sense that a good being who wanted to save humans would allow something like the final empire

I’m probably gonna start a debate or say an unpopular opinion, but I never understood takes like this. To be honest, I blame it on the infamous “Kelsier is a psychopath” WoB.

Kelsier is not sickeningly destructive. He doesn’t blow up cities or kill people for fun. He legitimately cares about his crew and the skaa, tried to save the world from Rashek’s tyrannical stagnation and Ruin’s destruction, loves Mare, and hates Ruin even though he’s very Connected to Ruin. Kelsier is flawed, not destructive. One good noble doesn’t prove that Kelsier’s slaughter of nobles wasn’t justified. His approach towards skaa who worked for nobles is iffy, but it’s still justified considering… well, their employers.

I like that aspect of The Well of Ascension too. But the destruction of the Final Empire was objectively worth it. Power struggles and vacuums will always exists after the fall of an empire. But Rashek killed way more people than Kelsier could ever hope. 

A good being, no matter how much they wanted to protect people, wouldn’t allow something like the Final Empire. Granted, I think Rashek was part of Preservation’s Plan. But that still does introduce messed up things about Preservation. Hell, Rashek could use the Well’s power because he was Connected to Preservation’s attributes.

Anyway, I am absolutely in love with the concept of Preservation being the antagonist of Era 1. I love Sanderson but he did a piss poor job implying situations Ruin could be the good guy while Preservation is the bad guy. Even after reading Secret History, I was pretty disappointed by the lack of nuance within Ruin and Preservation’s conflict.

I’m honestly in the mood to write fanfic where Preservation is the bad guy or antagonist, and Ruin is the good guy or protagonist.

My friend is actually writing an AU with this idea. He was sharing ideas yesterday over on the 17th Shard Discord server. My friend’s username is Fox. These are his messages describing the AU:

Quote

Mistborn AU where Ruin is the protagonist and Preservation is the antagonist

Ati was able to control Ruin a little bit more, channeling its Intent to destroy things that harmed humanity. But Preservation still did not like this destruction. He would rather humanity be harmed, but not destroyed, so long as everything in the universe stays stable with all its processes working smoothly. In his mind, Ruin is messing with the natural order of things, so he locks Ruin up. Preservation in this AU is more stable, so he continues to affect things around Scadrial to keep everything The Same. But Ruin was still trying to get out. Alendi and all that stuff happens, but Preservation uses Rashek killing Alendi for his own goals, manipulating him to create an empire without change. It doesn’t matter if people suffer, so long as everything is The Same.

Flash forward to the books, and Ruin manages to get enough of his power into the world to infuse Kelsier with some of it (fun morally good destruction guy, Ruin loves him). Kelsier notices he has some weird powers that he shouldn’t have, and it excites him, but it also freaks him it since he has no idea where it comes from. Eventually, an Inquisitor “accidentally” spikes him so Ruin can speak to him, explaining his plans. Kelsier is excited because a god trying to kill The Lord Ruler? Awesome! So he works with Ruin to kill Rashek. He still dies in this AU but becomes a Cognitive Shadow with Ruin’s Investiture, not Preservation’s.

Ruin figures out that in order to stop Preservation, they *both* need to be destroyed, so most from here on out goes similar to canon, with Harmony/Discord being created. Vin still has to take the power of Preservation to defeat Ruin, which really pisses Kel off.

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Ruin is a protagonist in this AU in that him and Kel have the same goals- kill The Lord Ruler and destroy anything that tries to harm humanity. But Ruin is still the god of destruction, and still starts to destroy the world in HoA, because he sees it as necessary to prevent Preservation from causing people to suffer. When he realizes that he too is making humanity suffer, he purposely causes the actions that lead to his death and Harmony being created. Ati knows he’s losing himself and it’s terrifying

Even after reading Secret History, I was pretty disappointed by the lack of nuance within Ruin and Preservation’s conflict. I’m honestly in the mood to write fanfic where Preservation is the bad guy or antagonist, and Ruin is the good guy or protagonist.

My friend is actually writing an AU with this idea. He was sharing ideas yesterday over on the 17th Shard Discord server. My friend’s username is Fox. These are his messages describing the AU:

Quote

Mistborn AU where Ruin is the protagonist and Preservation is the antagonist

Ati was able to control Ruin a little bit more, channeling its Intent to destroy things that harmed humanity. But Preservation still did not like this destruction. He would rather humanity be harmed, but not destroyed, so long as everything in the universe stays stable with all its processes working smoothly. In his mind, Ruin is messing with the natural order of things, so he locks Ruin up. Preservation in this AU is more stable, so he continues to affect things around Scadrial to keep everything The Same. But Ruin was still trying to get out. Alendi and all that stuff happens, but Preservation uses Rashek killing Alendi for his own goals, manipulating him to create an empire without change. It doesn’t matter if people suffer, so long as everything is The Same.

Flash forward to the books, and Ruin manages to get enough of his power into the world to infuse Kelsier with some of it (fun morally good destruction guy, Ruin loves him). Kelsier notices he has some weird powers that he shouldn’t have, and it excites him, but it also freaks him it since he has no idea where it comes from. Eventually, an Inquisitor “accidentally” spikes him so Ruin can speak to him, explaining his plans. Kelsier is excited because a god trying to kill The Lord Ruler? Awesome! So he works with Ruin to kill Rashek. He still dies in this AU but becomes a Cognitive Shadow with Ruin’s Investiture, not Preservation’s.

Ruin figures out that in order to stop Preservation, they *both* need to be destroyed, so most from here on out goes similar to canon, with Harmony/Discord being created. Vin still has to take the power of Preservation to defeat Ruin, which really pisses Kel off.

Quote

Ruin is a protagonist in this AU in that him and Kel have the same goals- kill The Lord Ruler and destroy anything that tries to harm humanity. But Ruin is still the god of destruction, and still starts to destroy the world in HoA, because he sees it as necessary to prevent Preservation from causing people to suffer. When he realizes that he too is making humanity suffer, he purposely causes the actions that lead to his death and Harmony being created. Ati knows he’s losing himself and it’s terrifying

On 4/14/2024 at 8:05 AM, hwiles said:

Things like this is why I always tell people to read secret history before Era 2. Blend was a bit of an annoying know it all, but he's the only mortal to see what he saw, and it's good to understand how he did what he did and why it worked perfectly.

I don’t know about that fam. If I didn’t already read Era 2 up till Bands of Mourning, I would’ve been totally lost on Secret History’s core ideas of Connection and the brief mention of Identity. 

Also now I have a theory on the Bands of Mourning, about potential ties to Ascension and the Cognitive Realm.

I don’t get the complaint about Elend lol. I always thought he was one of the most humble characters in the whole series.

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We don't know where the Pits were located before Rashek's Ascension, as he changed the geography of Scadrial and moved its crust. But there was also perpendicularity at the Well - two in fact as there was also Ruin's Shardpool there. So it's likely that Atium spawning goods were located close to the Well. And that's Terris homeland, sure it's challenging to go there, but as proven by Rashek from Alendi's journal, for a Ferichemist this is not problematic at all. 

That’s likely. But there’s nothing in lore that indicates atium spawned near the Well. Maybe I’m just being pessimistic, but it all feels like one big continuity snarl that makes theorycrafting a headache. I doubt anything connected to the Pits can be reliably connected back to what we know about Kwaan.

29 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Source? Metal just glows in CR and that's not because he was a Mistborn, that has nothing to do with it - I have not seen anything that would indicate it's because he was a Mistborn that he saw metal glowing. 

I never said this. What I meant was that Kelsier had the opportunity to see metal and souls glow because he persisted in the CR for a few minutes. Most dying souls don’t have the opportunity to witness this phenomenon because they’re either too shocked, not Mistborn or Full Feruchemists who can persist for a few minutes after death, or both. And yet again there’s nothing indicating Kwaan went to the CR through a perpendicularity. 

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think he needed Preservation for that. Realmatic Theory was a part of ancient Terris religion. Kwaan was able to travel to CR and that alone is enough to realize how metal looks for an entity watching it from outside of PR. It glows. If it glows in CR it means that it can't be read. Even Kelsier in SH immediately realized that metal and souls are the same thing. This is simple enough for Kwaan to reach that conclusion as well, especially if he knew about both Preservation and Ruin and their true nature, just like the First Generation of Kandra knew that (admittedly some of that might have come from Rashek after Ascension, but I think it's clear that ancient Terris was still aware of Ruin). 

Cosmere spoilers:

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Moreover Worldsingers and Worldbringers are connected and have the same origin, Worldsingers were founded by Hoid so it's very likely that Worldbringers have also connections beyond Scadrial and might be aware of Worldhopping. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Worldbringers and Worldsingers, similar mission?

Brandon Sanderson

The similarity of the names is intentional.

Questioner

Similar origin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Did Hoid start them?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. That's a RAFO, but definitely they have a similar origin.

Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

 

 

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Nesh

So some of us happened across a line in [Mistborn: The Final Empire] that gave us pause. It's in the chapter 19 epigraph:

"Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom - nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library--I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think."

This sounded to us like Kwaan the Terrisman might have been looking into or might have known something about Realmatics, like for instance knowing of the Realms and that things have aspects in all three. Is this the case? If so, was such knowledge common among his people or Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Realmatic theory was part of the ancient Terris religion.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012)

 

Respectfully, I disagree with this. Knowing some Realmatic Theory isn’t the same as traveling to the CR. Especially when, as I said before, there is no implication there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers (besides Hoid, potentially). Especially when the location of Ruin’s perpendicularity is an annoying continuity snarl. Was it always in the Pits of Hathsin? We don’t know. Was it in the mountains near the Well of Ascension, where Fedik was stabbed? We don’t know.

If it’s the former, then that’s honestly a big question mark I doubt Sanderson will elaborate upon. If it’s the latter, then that’s an even bigger question mark considering how dangerous and holy the trek to the Well’s mountain is.

We need to remember that both Shards had heavy involvement in the religions of Scadrial.  They could’ve hid hints on the Cognitive aspects of objects. Or Hoid could’ve seeded hints among his Terris comrades.

Kelsier was literally in the CR as a dying soul, and he only had the opportunity to see glowing metal and souls cuz he was a Mistborn - who persist in the CR for a few minutes. Even then, that was only possible because Kelsier chose to move around in the CR and Fuzz didn’t immediately communicate with him.

Now that I think about it, Kwaan’s quotes don’t necessarily mean he knows metal glows to Shards. 

I think it’s much more likely that Kwaan paid attention to his metal tablets during his exile, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final metal tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word. 

After reading Secret History, I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant. 

We know Kwaan has some knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, because he was researching if trees could think. However, there’s nothing in-text or WoB that suggest there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers, much less Kwaan himself. We don’t even know any history about the Pits of Hathsin and worldhopping to Scadrial, apart from our knowledge on Preservation’s initial creation of the Pits and its history during the Final Empire.

I think Preservation gave Kwaan visions of the Cognitive Realm, of the fact metal glows to Shards and thus can’t be altered by Ruin (who can’t read the thoughts that Pres could use as a loophole). If not this, I think Preservation created Kwaan’s photographic memory for the aforementioned purpose of eventually nudging Rashek into position. Kwaan then just kept paying attention to his metal tablets, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.

As far as we know, pure atium doesn’t permanently expand the user’s Cognitive aspect. As far as we know, pure atium is similar to Elend’s atium+duralumin, which presumably expanded his mind to process all the future possibilities that resided within his vision. Even though that combo Connected him to everyone and everything and allowed him to see into the Cognitive Realm, much like how a Shard sees into the future, it was only a temporary boost in Connection and cognition.

I assume pure atium works the same way. It expands the mind and Connection, but only for a short time. 

One of the things that bothered me about The Hero of Ages was Elend’s duralumin-atium burst. It’s iconic but it always annoyed me why Elend could do what Ruin couldn’t - foresee Preservation’s plan and Ruin’s death. However, now that Secret History has given insight into precognition I finally understand Elend’s sacrifice.

Elend never knew for certain if his sacrifice would be guaranteed to drive Vin to murder-suicide Ruin. But he aimed to protect the world and trusted Vin, so he sacrificed himself to help her. This is something Ruin - an unaware Vessel filled with the contextless embodiment of decay - was unwilling to do.

Before heading west to the Ire’s fortress, Preservation showed Kelsier a future vision that starts from him heading west. The future vision held Connections between Kelsier and his soul to Preservation, Kelsier to everything and everyone on Scadrial, Preservation to the ground and air and metals. And in the vision, it held a path of future possibilities - many, thousands upon thousands, infinite, tangled with each other. Kelsier could only glean vague, general impressions because his mind isn’t expanded to sort through or understand the sensation, the information, or the individual possibilities.

Elend saw into the future the same way Kelsier did - through glimpsing Connections. But he could understand all the possibilities because Atium expands the mind. When burning duralumin+atium, Elend became temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, everything and everyone in the battlefield. Those Connections are the blue lines pointing from his chest in the Physical Realm and the white lines in the Cognitive Realm. 

Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Judging from regular Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh. 

“I see now” is when Elend liked the general implication of the future vision - that he could drive Vin to sacrifice her life if it meant defeating Ruin. So he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But even the Shards of Adonalsium - those who foresee infinite possibilities and infinite actions - can be wrong about the possibilities they see as unlikely, likely, or thread towards. 

All he could do was trust Vin and hope for the best outcome.

But where does this fit into the futures seen by the Shards surrounding these events - Ruin and Preservation? Ruin, the essence which fuels Elend’s future vision and the God whom foresaw what Elend saw. Preservation, the God Sanderson implies incorporated Elend’s death into his plan.

I believe for Ruin, his inability to acknowledge Elend’s future vision was not a matter of seeing the possibilities. But rather, it was a matter of seeing them as likely possibilities. Ati the Vessel basically didn’t exist anymore. Ati didn't even remember what planet he was working on, virtually a shell filled with Ruin's Investiture. Ruin the God foresaw the possibilities within Elend's future vision, but either saw them as unlikely or dismissed them entirely. You could even say he was a god that no longer understood or acknowledged the loving sacrifice that existed within his foreseen future possibilities.

Ruin the God didn’t embrace life or acknowledge that life needs to persist. Ruin didn’t sacrifice. He said he was life, and yet Leras/Fuzz comforted life when Ruin did not. And for this, he dismissed Elend’s futures and paid the price. 

Preservation protects. Preservation listens to the hearts of men, for it hears all thoughts of all Scadrians. Leras understands sacrifice, for the divinity sacrificed his mind and equal pedestal to Ruin. This was for the sake of protecting in the long run. This is why he wanted Elend to have the lerasium bead. Leras chose a successor who could live a life highly Connected to Preservation’s attributes, and might sacrifice her life for the greater good. He foresaw someone might use one lerasium bead for the pieces of the plan to fall together. And when the time came, He saw Vin’s lover as someone who might sacrifice his life for the greater good. Someone who could use the bead. Leras bet those possibilities would come into play at the last moment, did whatever he could to thread towards them, and hoped it paid off. 

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's fine to disagree. This is my interpretation of how Preservation's plan was set up, Terris prophecies and Hero of Ages title, the sources give us enough wiggle room to interpret them differently as we want. We probably will never see the full picture, so that's what we have to do. It's fun to read your interpretation. I'm glad to see you were enjoying the story and shedding new light for you on events of Era 1. 

Personally I think it was a lot more precise than you think. Because there are no characters that fit the Terris Prophecies as much as Sazed, especially not “the future of the entire world on their arms” or the Hero’s relations to the Terris people.

However, I don’t think Leras foresaw thousands of years ago that Vin could take the power of Preservation, or that Elend could sacrifice himself to drive Vin’s sacrifice, or that Sazed could take both Preservation and Ruin. But I think it was like Kelsier’s precognitive plan to give Vin the Shard by encouraging Marsh to remove the earring. Kelsier foresaw few futures where Urteau is saved and Vin gets the Shard, whereas most futures were lines of darkness where Urteau is destroyed and “possibilities end.” Kelsier took advantage of the few openings his frayed Vessel form had - Spook’s Connections to Kelsier - and used Spook to accomplish the lines of light. 

This applies to Leras but on a greater, far less certain level. I think Leras foresaw that some people, in the fragile distant maybe future(s), could do these things. So he did whatever he could do thread towards these things. This is why I think he put Rashek into place - so that Rashek could gather the atium and finally make the atium Misting plan feasible, or to set up “The Hero who’s outside of the Terris people and called heretic” or “the Burden by which the Hero shall be dubbed.”

On 4/3/2024 at 8:46 AM, alder24 said:

The answer is simple. Firstly there would be no number 16 in Mistsnapping, no sign that something weird is happening. Secondly it wouldn't have been an obvious sign that says "you can burn Atium now, that's what you need to do" as Mistborn can burn anything. Thirdly it would take much more power to make someone into a Mistborn than into a Misting. Mistborn are much more invested and those Mistings snapped by Mists were very weak, weaker than normal Mistings as many of them had barely any Allomantic potential in them. And it wouldn't have been beneficial at all - you can't win against Ruin by killing, you just have to burn Atium, Mistborn weren't needed. WoB:

I’m not understanding this logic out-of-universe. I guess it makes sense in-universe, since the plan to burn away Ruin’s body was a “fragile distant maybe” to begin with. But out-of-universe I don’t understand why Sanderson did this. Atium doesn’t fit into the 16 metals, even if you acknowledge it’s an alloy of pure atium and electrum. And if you remember correctly, the Mists also Snapped people into Mistings of the 16 base metals.  

I personally find the justification… flimsy. Besides now that I’m thinking about futuresight and the frailness of the plan succeeding, it’s not like it was ever guaranteed Elend (or someone) would know there were atium Mistings. After all he didn’t find out about atium Mistings until Yomen told him, then Vin presumably influenced him into going to the Pits of Hathsin to fulfill Leras’ plan. So why not go the extra step and create Mistborn? Also, if it was an army of Mistborn it would perfectly reference the title of the series. And that would make me happy lol.

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Ati tried to channel Ruin to mean these things, but was only partially successful, which is why you'll notice through the rest of the story a slight difference between what Ruin says and what Ruin does. When/If you get to Stormlight Archive, you will see a similar situation with another Shard.

So this is why Ruin says he cares about life and change, but doesn’t comfort people after death like Preservation does? Instead, he revels in death and decay and destruction.

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Not quite. . . You will get more on this interaction over the rest of the story. To avoid spoilers I will wait for later in case you still have questions. 

Not sure where you were trying to go this. Kelsier heard the thoughts of all the people in Urteau and the crew, not just the mad or spiked. He did the same to Spook’s mind after his spike was removed. And of course, he heard Vin’s thoughts after her earring was removed. 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

You will also get more information on this as the story progresses, with examples of what happens when that Connection is . . . lacking.

I understand now! So the Shard of Preservation and the Well of Ascension’s power can’t be taken up by anyone. They can only be taken by those with personalities in tune with Preservation’s attributes - protection, stability, stasis, the status quo etc. People like Vin, Rashek, or Alendi.

I gotta love the bit where it’s revealed Sazed is Connected to both Shards cuz of the journey he’s gone through his life. As well as the reveal of a nuanced aspect of Ruin, which I now see in how Sazed has been influencing the Elendel Basin and the Southern Continent. 

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

That is the current concensus - though BS did originally plan for that the be a whisper from Kelsier (until he realized it wasn't possible) - WoB:

I’m gonna think this is Preservation, but I’m now experienced enough in Cosmere magic shenanigans to know how he’s speaking to Sazed’s mind. I need to read more, and maybe I’ll discuss this someday. Maybe it’s using the same method as Leras telling Kelsier to Survive?

On 4/5/2024 at 7:15 AM, Treamayne said:

Just to be clear, Snapping isn't something Preservation added to Allomancy - it is a fundamental part of some kinds of Investiture and similar mechanics will appear in other Cosmere stories. 

Is that mechanic found in Forgery or the Shaod, by any chance?

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, Atium is tapping into the Spiritual Realm on the very very short scale - only seconds - which is why Atium Shadows are far more likely to be correct (it fractures exponentially the further forward you are from "now") - which is also why once Vin realized this, she was able to "break" Zane's Atium to defeat him.

Thanks for the explanation. But now my head hurts when it comes to the Terris Prophecies.

I understand that Vin breaking Zane’s atium demonstrates that reactions to a future possibility, or reactions to actions that thread through a future possibility, fracture a possibility into more. Interesting, great.

But then if future possibilities fracture the more in time someone looks then how were the Terris Prophecies so… correct. Oh well, I have my own theories about that. Fueled by my analysis of Kelsier’s precognitive plan to give Vin the Mists / Shard.

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, yes, but also a bit more - closer to a Thanatos Gambit + Batman Gambit + nearly a Xanatos Gambit (not quite all outcomes favoring Preservation's plan - but many possible outcomes favored the Plan since Leras accounted for his death favoring the Plan as well as factored in that Ruin would act like Ruin) 

I get the Thanatos Gambit and The Plan tropes. But how was The Plan a Batman Gambit or Xanatos Gambit?

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Elend's Duralumin+Atium was closer to seeing the actual resolution of the Plan because, based on Atium, it was much closer to "now" and therefore much more likely to be accurate (or at least close). While I think you are spot-on for how Rashek dealt with what he learned - which is why he had so many separate (but sometimes overlapping) plans. 

You’re spot on with Elend. His future vision was closer to The Plan’s resolution than Ascended Rashek’s vision during, or theoretical later visions made by Allomantic futuresight. But Elend still had a lot of room for error. He was seeing into the future the same way Ruin does. The same way Kelsier did when Preservation showed him a future vision. Elend was temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, and everything in the battlefield. Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Based on Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of future possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh. 

He liked the general implication of the future vision, so he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But because Elend was glimpsing into the futures of Vin and Ruin - who constantly see into the future - the general implication from his own future vision would’ve been horribly inaccurate and even less guaranteed to come true. 

On 4/6/2024 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Well, we did warn you when you first voiced your upset with Ruin after Hero of Ages - Ruin's schemes were much deeper than you could see from the viewpoints HoA was able to show. 

Yes you did

On 4/9/2024 at 9:04 PM, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory. I would guess it wasn;t so much "I want you to do X, Y and Z" as "Hey, a possible wild-card back-up with a possibility of aiding the 'plan.' "

And I would note that you might want to check out (again) what Fuzz said when Kelsier was going toward the Well in Part 1 - Ch 1:

Kelsier’s plan for Marsh supports this, I think. As well as the fragile nature of the atium Mistings or The Hero of Ages.

Yup, I definitely think Leras saw something special in Kelsier’s thoughts and future. So did Vin. So did Sazed.

On 4/10/2024 at 8:52 AM, alder24 said:

Interesting, it's possible, but judging by how Leras behaved in SH, by that he didn't remember what was the plan, was just hoping people would recognize it without his intervention, or by that he didn't wanted to preserve Kelsier from going into the Beyond until Kelsier showed an unbreakable will to save himself and convinced Leras to made him into a CS, I think at that point Leras was too far gone to do anything as a part of his plan - he didn't know what his plan was. I think it would be more like what happened at the Well at the beginning of SH - Leras was just impressed by Kelsier's actions and just felt he deserved to be preserved, not knowing he would ultimately serve a role in his plan. Leras didn't predict Rashek would die, he didn't predict Ruin would be soon freed, he didn't know he needed to do anything this time as he thought Rashek would Ascend again, thus maintaining the status quo.

I don’t believe any of this for a second. There are many implications that indicate Leras wasn't just setting the plan in motion, he was actively facilitating it. Everything he did with Kelsier (pits, shadow, vision) and his choice of Vin were active and happening right now rather than thousands of years ago.

Secret History confirms he “made it work last time” with the Lord Ruler - maneuvering Rashek into the position of Ascending and preventing Ruin’s freedom. It confirms that back then, he predicted Alendi would give up the power.

There’s this line after Vin frees Ruin: “It was going to happen,” Preservation said. “I thought… Maybe…” 

To me, this indicates Leras predicted Ruin would break free this cycle. Even before he imprisoned Ruin, he knew he would break free one day. That the Well of Ascension would only delay Ruin. 

Leras did do something. He programmed the Mists to dripfeed into Vin, Connecting her to Preservation.

As for Leras not predicting Rashek would soon die… that’s an interesting assumption. It’s true Leras said he loves Rashek’s immortality and stability, even though he disagrees with Rashek’s actions. But not wanting to kill Rashek doesn’t match up with having to thread through The Plan - to get both Shards into the grasps of The Hero of Ages.

Saying that Leras didn’t remember the plan is a bit… complicated. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t threading through the plan or knew aspects of it. Remember that Fuzz is a shadow of the Vessel who chose Vin as his successor, or commanded Kelsier to survive, or put Rashek into place.

Let’s be honest, Rashek needed to die for The Hero of Ages to be created. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Well. He would’ve prevented anyone from going to the Pits of Hathsin or Trustwarren. He would’ve killed Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed - essential pieces of Leras’ plan. 

On 2/14/2021 at 10:22 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Hey, I’m both! Kinda... I’m working on the therapist bit.

Kell’s last words to Vin were also pretty harsh, if we’re being fair. And I do think some of what she said came from knowing that he wasn’t going to follow her Beyond.

But I think she told him what she did because she KNEW it was the last thing she would say to him. And she remembered the effect Kelsier’s last words had on her. And she wanted him to remember them whenever he remembered her.

Because Kelsier’s story has a long way to go. And there’s something in his future. Something I think Leras saw when he Preserved Kelsier and again as he died and Kell Ascended. Something Sazed saw when he refused to resurrect Kelsier because “Sazed believes in Kelsier more than Kelsier does.” Something Vin saw when she was Preservation.

Her words were harsh, yes. But as Kelsier continues to survive, continues to plot and manipulate, continues to scheme and contrive, it’s something he needs to remember. Something he needs to hear from one of the few people he can’t ignore and won’t forget. Something he needs to keep in mind as he moves through the centuries; something to keep him on the right side of the line; something to push him toward becoming a better man.

And Vin was never going to get another chance, nor a better one, to tell him.

I don’t know if that helps, but that’s how I see it. She told him what he needed to hear, not necessarily what she wanted to say. And that’s love too.

I just finished reading Secret History and was hoping to find a theory like this. I agree with you 100%. Vin was a Vessel of Preservation, so she knew so much about Kelsier that Kelsier himself didn’t know. Vin saw the precognitive plan Kelsier threaded through to give Vin the power, the inspiration of Spook and Trusting Marsh, his escapades as a Cognitive Shadow, and she “knew” Kelsier’s life as mortal just as Kelsier “knew” Goradel’s history and motives. Vin likely saw Leras’ own plans for Kelsier.

I too think Vin saw something in Kelsier’s future, as she saw into the future of the entire world. But I also think she saw something important in Kelsier’s past. Something about Kelsier’s personality, motives, and Connections that indicate he’s a good person but needs to grow in some way. 

Something that Leras foresaw as he Preserved Kelsier in the Pits and commanded him to Survive, Preserved him again as a Cognitive Shadow, and showed him the path of future possibilities that started from Kelsier heading west. Something Leras foresaw when he called out Kelsier’s use of the skaa’s devotion, yet trusted him to become better. Something that Sazed foresaw when he refused to bring Kelsier back to the Physical Realm, restricting a choice he was willing to give Vin and Elend.

It's a surprising but welcome addition to the Mistborn Saga, phenomenal and heartwarming. It explores why I loved Kelsier so much and raises some questions about his true motives. Many questions I had from the trilogy were answered in satisfying and compelling ways. I gotta love its expansion of Scadrial’s worldbuilding and the hints to the ongoings of the cosmere. It even got hints of the true circumstances of why Rashek was able to Ascend - it wasn’t a fluke as he was Connected to Preservation and maneuvered into the position by Leras (who listens to the hearts of men cuz he hears all thoughts).

I think Sanderson did an amazing job with Fuzz’s personality, his futuresight and planning, and the true nature of Preservation. Even though I still have problems with Ruin’s writing, I think Sanderson did a great job justifying his failures while somehow simultaneously amplifying Ruin as a threat. 

The Shard of Ruin is not death or destruction. It’s slow decay and entropy, it is being at peace with the fact life and the universe doesn’t last forever. Kelsier understood the former, Elend understood the latter after Connecting with Ruin’s Investiture. Ruin the God was in the hands of a Vessel that didn’t even exist anymore. It was in a Vessel that didn’t even remember what planet he was working on, just a shell filled with Ruin’s Investiture. It was a god who foresaw the possibilities within Elend’s future vision, but either saw them as unlikely or dismissed them entirely. It was a god that no longer understood or acknowledged the loving, selfless, compassionate sacrifice that exists within his foreseen future possibilities. The sacrifice which, in stark contrast, Leras, Kelsier, and possibly Vin foresaw and accounted into their precognitive plans. I'm still betting Harmony has precognitive plans of his own in motion.

Kelsier was right. He is hope. His moments with Spook, Marsh, Vin, and even Elend got me smiling ear to ear before suddenly flowing tears. Same with his scenes of comforting Goradel and the dying people of Scadrial. I don't think he's nearly as wicked as some people say, but he has a lot to learn. But he's already aware of some things, like his view of Marsh being a better person than him.

This is just an observation but after Vin’s death the characters knew things or made claims they normally wouldn’t or couldn’t, but I have thoughts on why they were possible.

I have a lot of thoughts and theories, but I'll make separate posts for those sometime during the week. Or post in this thread, idk yet

I hope we see more of the Ire and their home planet.. someday. Elantris and AU Selish system essay spoilers

I just reached the part where Kelsier Ascended to the Vessel of Preservation. I got a lot of thoughts and theories that I can’t type cuz of work. But one of those, unsurprisingly lmao, is that Preservation commanded Kelsier to Survive in the Pits, driving him forward. Inspiring Kelsier to become the Survivor of Hathsin.

I think Leras wanted Kelsier to become the Survivor of Hathsin as a gambit, as part of his plan. It’s why he told Kelsier to Survive, made him into a Cognitive Shadow, and showed him the future vision of going west to the Ire’s fortress. He wanted Kelsier to destroy all the atium in the Pits of Hathsin, restricting Ruin from one of the two ways he can regain his full power. He wanted Kelsier to get the Ire’s orb, artificially Connecting himself to Preservation and serving as the middleman between Leras and Vin. Ensuring Vin gets the Shard before Ruin Splinters it. 

I also think Preservation fueled Kelsier’s Allomancy in the Pits, with the mists. And Snapped him into a Mistborn at that moment, like how he theoretically Snapped Vin during her birth.

Intriguing moment in the middle of Secret History

I just finished Part 3: Spirit and the last scene stood out to me. For a long time I was wondering about the implications of futuresight in book 3, but now I got them.  

In the last scene, Fuzz forcefully shows Kelsier a vision of the future. He does it twice so Kelsier has a chance of understanding it. There’s so much to unpack about futuresight.

1. Kelsier glimpsed into Preservation’s essence - the Spiritual Realm. Ribbons of it exploding from him. In the Spiritual Realm, time doesn’t pass or have meaning, it’s not a place, location is no relevant. It only contains Connection - which I interpreted from book 6 as the Spiritual aspect of bonds. Connections - bonds - between person to person (manipulated by Handerym?), man to world, man to country (from BoM), Kelsier to god.
2. It appears that Shards see into the future by riding those Connections, and that Kelsier glimpsed Preservation’s Connections to everything and everyone on Scadrial. God to Kelsier and his soul, God to the ground, God to the air, God to metals. 
3. Kelsier saw his own Connections to people  
4. I find out that Shard futuresight is of future possibilities, many possibilities, infinite possibilities compounded upon each other.
5. Kelsier compares this to atium. I remember atium vs atium, or electrum vs atium appearing like future possibilities mirroring each other. How is regular ol' atium burning like Kelsier’s vision?
6. Futuresight involves sorting through the information and sensation. Mortal minds are too fragile to process the information from the possibilities, while only Shards can do it. But even Shards are likely to be wrong, and it’s hard to tell what’s actually likely or a frail possibility. 
7. Kelsier saw thousands upon thousands of possibilities. In none did he defeat Ruin, both him and Fuzz know it. Kelsier saw a chance Vin could beat Ruin. However, Fuzz confirms Vin beating Ruin is a frail possibility and that Ruin knows of this frail possibility. 
8. Kelsier’s future vision was a path of possibilities that started by him going into the west. 

Notes and speculation after this chapter:

• Between the moments of future vision, Ruin seems to notice Fuzz’s gift. Ruin shows Kelsier his Connections to everything on Scadrial, including to Kelsier himself. Kelsier sees his Connections to Ruin are much greater than his Connections to Preservation.
• “It’s too hard to see what is actually likely, and what is just a fragile… fragile, distant maybe…” - This quote, and everything about this chapter, confirms what I was thinking and hoping for. That all of Preservation’s gambits and plans to defeat Ruin - especially the Hero of Ages and Terris Prophecies - were Hail Marys and fragile future possibilities that Preservation just hoped would succeed. He never knew for sure, he just hoped and trusted.
• Same idea would absolutely apply to Rashek’s future vision during the Ascension or Elend’s future vision at the end of book 3. Rashek didn’t know if the storage caches, or Trustwarren, or the Resolution would succeed. Elend didn’t know if his sacrifice would be guaranteed to drive Vin to murder-suicide Ruin. Even though their minds were expanded, they were still much lesser than the Shards and only seeing possibilities. All they could do was trust the First Generation and Vin, and hope for the best outcome. 
• Ruin was trying to break Sazed!!! My god, Ruin’s plans are soooo all-encompassing and subtle in this book! I never would’ve thought he was influencing Sazed!  
• Fuzz's gift to Kelsier may have been a possible method for gifting the Terris Prophecies. What if Leras gave future visions to dying Terris people in the Cognitive Realm, then revived them as Cognitive Shadows to spread the word of the visions in the Physical Realm? He’d have been much more capable than Fuzz, so this seems plausible.

Reactions to Secret History Part 2

* Kelsier is now a Cognitive Shadow, a being who's had his spirit held together. He's been severed from the Physical Realm who can't go back or pass to the Beyond. But he has no real clothes, hair, bodily fluids or senses. Pain comes from Kelsier’s thoughts on what he should be experiencing. It seems that he's more akin to Preservation’s holograms or Ruin’s illusions, than a real human. Does being a Cognitive Shadow mean Kelsier's soul is intermixed with his Cognitive aspect - his thoughts? 
* If the Cognitive Realm is the Realm of thoughts, what are the dead Scadrians supposed to be when they arrive? Do their souls show up in the Cognitive, a humanoid embodiment of their thoughts, or both?
* No wonder Fuzz claimed Ruin has "deep plans." Rust and Ruin. This is far deeper than what the trilogy presented. Ruin wasn’t just using Vin or Sazed’s rubbing. He was manipulating and altering the texts and copperminds of many Terrismen (not just Sazed), whispering to madmen, whispering to Zane. He’s got influence on the Drifter and Elend.  I think it’s implied he has influence or interest in the whole crew. Ruin masqueraded as the mist spirit to nudge Vin into distrusting it!
* So apparently Ruin isn't death or destruction, he's the god of entropy and slow decay. I guess that makes sense, looking back to his plans. Though with his existence being of winds and storms and waves slowly stopping, of the sun and planet slowly cooling to nothing… you’d think Ruin would have futuresight on Preservation’s level. Plus if he did have futuresight on Preservation's level, I think it would strengthen Ruin and Preservation's arc of opposites engaged in a war of balance. Granted, now I know futuresight is of possibilities and Fuzz couldn’t foresee Kelsier’s method of death as a guaranteed possibility. So idk what’s going on with that lmao. 
* I  wish Sanderson leaned more into the *chaotic* angle of Ruin, or gave us a more nuanced interpretation of chaos. Entropy is disorder or unpredictability, but idk why fantasy writers don't acknowledge that chaos "makes things go." Entropy is replication and metabolism. Entropy is why hot things cool down and cool things heat up, or why gas fills up a chamber and comes out. Entropy makes suns, planets, or the weather slowly build up. Chaos makes humans invent technology and achieve ambitions. 
* Kelsier's peeks into Ruin and Preservation's essence are so magnificent and add so much context. The reflection of Vin's brief Ascension is beautiful. The Cognitive images of Ruin’s whispers and freedom are really terrifying.  
* Kelsier became Gollum for sometime
* All Men have limits, even the Survivor
* Drifter is angry Kelsier destroyed the means of interplanetary trade. Okay, understandable. But Drifer is such a dick omg. Kelsier saved the skaa and Terris people! What did you do???
* I’m guessing the Pits held Ruin’s pool - the liquid that manifested cuz of Scadrial’s creation. But how would Kelsier’s destruction of the atium destroy the pool? It’s not like he destroyed the layout of the Pits. 
* If the perpendicularities are supposed to be portals between the Physical and Cognitive, and between other worlds, then this means Preservation programmed his perpendicularity into being Ruin’s prison and granting unfathomable Investiture every 1024 years. 
* Drifter says anything physical falls through the misty floor, so I guess Cognitive Shadows like Spanky must be used to travel through. 
* It sounds like Drifter needed Kelsier to kill the Lord Ruler or inspire someone to kill him, so he can enter Kredik Shaw and steal a lerasium bead left behind by the Lord Ruler. I’m gonna speculate Rashek left two lerasium beads due to futuresight experienced during his Ascension - during his glimpse of Preservation’s Plan. I think he foresaw that two beads ***might*** be needed for others in the future, while he needed to take nine beads.
* Harmony is a liar. He lied about the number of lerasium beads.
* Man, the passage about Kel and Marsh’s brotherhood ***hurtThis post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules. The Final Empire REALLY screwed up the crew’s chances of having happy childhoods. Or close sibling bonds. Or romances with happy endings
* My interpretation is that Fuzz - the mist spirit - the Cognitive holograms - is not Leras. Fuzz is basically a fragile artificial intelligence that remembers the personality of his creator, and is just riding along Leras’ plan. It knows that Leras made a plan, or plans, but lacks the ability to remember them. It also seems to be a small fragment of Leras’ mind that’s mostly driven by the Shard of Preservation’s Investiture. While the Shard wants a new host. He's perceiving and working on the world pretty well, all things considered.
* I FEEL VINDICATED! I RUSTING CALLED IT! PRESERVATION MANUEVERED RASHEK INTO BEING THE ASCENDANT!  RASHEK WAS RIGHT! ALENDI WAS THE FALSE HERO!
* Oh right! Harmony said that Preservation hears the thoughts of those who wear Hemalurgic spikes! Buuuut he's partly a liar cuz Harmony also listened to Wax's thoughts before he put on the earring.
* Harmony definitely hears the thoughts of people who don’t wear Hemalurgic spikes, so Preservation would’ve known Rashek’s true thoughts - the heart of a Man - on a level the readers or Alendi aren’t aware of. This would explain why Preservation's futuresight seems so much better than Ruin. But *why* did he maneuver Rashek into becoming the Ascendant? And what does this mean for the implications surrounding Alendi and Kwaan?  I think he did this to create the circumstances for the Hero of Ages. 
* Ruin falls way too short in the chess game. Secret History amps him up a bit but damn Ruin needs some Bene Gesserit tier planning.
* Apparently, an Ascendant needs to be Connected to the Well's power. What does that mean?
* I know the clues to Vin were the mist spirit. Wasn’t Sazed the “someone else Fuzz tried to get to stop her?” When the mist spirit was messing around in Luthadel.
* Now I know Kelsier didn't whisper to Sazed's mind, telling him that Marsh launched rings into his body. My guess is Preservation did *something* to communicate to Sazed.
* It turns out Kelsier was the one to stab Elend, guiding Fuzz’s knife! Fuzz could manifest the knife but couldn’t harm Elend because he protects. And yet Leras put the Allomancer plan into motion, which meant making people sick. He put Vin and Rashek into place, who both kill to protect or maintain stability. I don't think Fuzz is a complete representation of Preservation's morality or willingness to kill.