JohnnyKaizen

Cool, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Eventually, there will arise an interplanetary fast food chain of Chouta restaurants. Their sign will be of a blue woman (This will be Syl, but almost nobody will remember that) and the chain will be called, Windy's.

I don't intend to pick on your specifically, but I do want to address this. I have seen this sentiment repeated several times since WaT has come out, and it baffles my why people keep saying it. Ulim said this of BAM, and the only merit to it (now that we know what happened to her) seems to be that she was able to be trapped in a gem prison, where as I doubt a Shard ever could be trapped in the same way (accept maybe by another Shard or Shards). Though, even that was because Tanavast was an even bigger jerk than he'd been up until that point, to betray her out of fear/spite/whatever nonsense that was. BAM was a better "god" than Odium ever had been in form, function, and leadership. I can see why the power prefers her to Rayse or Taravangian. Mostly because those two set a bar so low, it's barely off of the ground.

Honestly, it tracks very well for me. I didn't state as strongly as I actually feel about him still being angry over the prediction of the physician at his birth. Retribution, to paraphrase D&D alignments, is lawful hatred mixed with "I told you so" (but his version of that is more likely to be I'll make you see that I was right..by any means necessary..so that I can say I told you so, even if you're dead when I say it). <---That right there, is Taravangian all the way down to the ground. If he could have bullied Dalinar into admitting he was correct in his plans, and that Dalinar needed to step aside, make Taravangian the head of the coalition, and unalive himself...he would have done so without hesitation, but would have assuredly found someone to express how sad he was that he had to do that. Honestly, the more I've gotten to know Taravangian over the years, the more spiteful he's gotten. If Shard names could be sentences instead of one-word names, Retribution could go by, "I vow I will be Spiteful" without missing a beat. O I dunno, that sickly-sweet chat he had with the dying king of Jah Keved, seemed pretty spiteful to me. At the very least, Taravangian was gloating something awful. Yeah, I agree with, and really like this metaphor. It's also a great example of why I believe Cultivation has much different plans for Taravangian than what she's told him, because she'd be aware of that more than anyone. Abundance is doing some really heavy lifting where Taravangian is concerned. I feel like he finds every loftier heights of arrogance as his story has unfolded. And yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, you pointed out how one of his Shards rejected Tanavast, and Rayse and Taravangian have both (I think T may have said it for Rayse post-mortem) that Odium preferred BAM to either of them, and I don't see how Honor wouldn't prefer her of Taravangian as well, given the chance. I'm not saying either or both of them will jump ship to bond with her. But Honor being self-aware, will not put up with Taravangian nearly as long as it did Tanavast, or Odium did Rayse. Also, Honor being self-aware and blending with Odium, will most likely have an affect on Odium if they ever split. It could be as you say, that the Intent will shift Taravangian, but I really don't see him bowing to the power. I am pretty sure he'd rather die than admit to anyone that he's not the be-all, end-all of the Cosmere. But, that's just my feeling. I don't have any hard evidence to that. I feel that she's more suited to endgames than most Shards. All kinds of things can be cultivated, but not infinitely. Eventually, any ecosystem(s) would be as cultivated as it can be. I suppose one could say that, in that case, Cultivation would use the Cosmere at large (if she felt it had reached it's ultimate level of cultivation) to cultivate another Galaxy/Dimension/whatever else Brandon would come up with that's way more creative than what I can think up. So, in that view, no she wouldn't have an orientation towards endgames, only reaching a peak that could then be a launching point for something else. But, that feels like semantics, in that we're talking about a being that's looking at eternity, and eternity can't have an endgame by definition, but it can have extreme inflection points. So, if I added to my original statement, I guess it would be that Cultivation planned Retributions rise, and will use him to reach several more inflection points for the Cosmere going forward.

By that time, it wouldn't just be a stylized spren, but an actual one. Investiture is energy, and electricity is energy and spren can move real fast...so...there will be spren zipping through the internet for funzies and normal spren stuff, like popping out of your screen to the emotions embedded there.

The more we talk about Syl and what the ramifications of what's happened most likely are, the more I need a SA 5.5 to come out yesterday.

As usually happens with me, I was not thinking about the Cosmere at all, when I suddenly had an idea hit me. Regardless of what Cultivation has told Taravangian, I believe a foundational reason that she cultivated Taravangian to take up Odium (and I believe she planned Retribution as well, based on her actions) is because Taravangian hates himself, intensely. He constantly referred back to what the physician at his birth, wrongfully predicted. And while I am sure that was traumatic in his youth, it became clear in adulthood that he was anything but "diminished" in his mental capacity. He went out of his way to involve himself in as many gruesome acts as he possibly could, and then went out of his way to demonstrate that to Szeth (and possibly others). A king who orders the murders of his subjects is just as guilty for their deaths as the person who commits the murder, and Taravangian (of all people) knows that, but he would go and sit with the dying, killing them himself on a regular basis. It's clear from his direct admissions to Szeth, and his oblique ones to Dalinar, that he felt pain/sorrow/grief at his actions but he never once deviated from his plan. I believe that he so firmly embedded himself in the minutia of brutality because he wanted to self-harm through grief and horror (and also so that he could claim the moral highground of "Look at me..I did all these things because I had to do them. My way was the only way. The right way. And, I have to be the one to 'save everyone'") <--Honestly, I wish that he'd be over this in SA 6 and stop talking about it, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one, as it's sort of his core thing, even in godhood. All of these actions, paint the picture of a man who is conflicted between what he could have been, and what he's decided he will be. He had dozens of opportunities to stop the Diagram and side with Dalinar fully, but he never did. And he never did, because he had decided in his "smart times" that there was no way for Dalinar to win. It seems to me that if someone had tossed Taravangian out of a window in Urithiru, somewhere around Oathbringer, things wouldn't be quite so bleak for Roshar and the Cosmere now, and Taravangian knows that too. Anyway, I feel that Odium's intent is clearly focused outwardly, not inwardly, and Taravangian's hatred is mostly directed at himself. I think that him executing further plans on the level of a Shard will only deepen his self-loathing, and that Odium will ultimately reject him. Honor was charged to watch, listen, and learn from Taravangian, and his sociopathic/narcissistic obsession with sticking to his plans regardless of the cost (in lives, planets, or honor). I just don't see Honor accepting him longterm either. All of that is to say, Retribution isn't Cultivation's endgame, I think he's her opening move.

You know, the Stormfather/Tanavast was a big ol liar...so it's possible Dalinar could/should have had shards all along, and he was just to prideful to help out.

Honestly, Jasnah will be a pretty different person by SA6. We've left her to rebuild her entire worldview. I would say that a past relationship will probably be waaaaaay down her list of priorities in the years that will pass between 5 and 6. Could she decide that she'd like to get back together with Wit/Hoid, yeah, but I doubt it, but even that I'm in no way sure of. Honestly, I'm going to have to get to know Jasnah (if not all, a sizable portion of her) over again in 6 and beyond, before I would feel comfortable making any call like that.

You say that, but we also got to "see" Dalinar go to the Beyond, same as we have with just about every other main character who has died in the Cosmere. With Kaladin, that was suspiciously absent, and that was certainly an editorial choice that was made. To be fair, it was probably made so that we can all sit around and debate it forever.

Isn't this a bit moot at this point? Is it the original soul or isn't it? Well the SprenThorn has all of Dalinar's memories, minus about 5 minutes and will have all of those experiences within him, and he is essentially a clone of Dalinar. Lets, for the sake of argument, say that the SprenThorn is Dalinar. Then there is a soul of Dalinar in the beyond and there is a (now made physical) Dalinar in the PR..presumably also with a soul. Splintering is a canonical mechanic for Shards..is SprenThorn a splinter of Dalinar? Is Kaladin a splinter of himself? His whole self? Or an entirely different entity with everything that makes Kaladin, Kaladin? This is honestly the part of Brandon wanting to be "hands off" about the Beyond that bothers me. Not the philosophical aspects of it, but the mechanics. If the idea of splintering a soul, and that Cognitive Shadows are (to borrow from the Iriali) pieces of the one, then that's fine. Makes sense. We are all different people throughout our lives. We are all the Ship of Theseus at any given points. I am most certainly not the person I was 10 years ago, even less so 20 years ago. I get that Brandon has made a choice, and that we can all think whatever we want and that's equally valid, it's just that for a universe that has so many set rules, it would be nice to know the rules.

That all makes sense, except that the boss here is Taravangian. He was ruthlessly methodical and extremely detail-oriented before he became a god, now he's something else entirely. He'd be aware that conquering the Cosmere would take centuries, if not millennia, and he's not like Darth Sidious, keen to replace those closest to him as time goes on, not where Dalinar is concerned, at the very least. He'll want him at his best, forever. Because he wants some kind of twisted version of those fireside chats, forever. I assume that Retribution will do whatever it takes to safeguard SprenThorn's mind for the thousands of years of plans he has in the making. It would be completely outside of his character, up to this point, to not do so.

Dalinar at the Rift, was a man who didn't just live for battle, it was all he ever wanted to really do, because he was essentially addicted to Nergaoul. I don't know that Retribution could reproduce the Thrill in the PR, but he most certainly can in the SR. I would think that letting SprenThorn cut loose in the SR for as long as he wants, to get better and better, would be right up his alley. I would think that anyone would break down eventually, but SprenThorn wouldn't see endless battles as torture, he'd see it as paradise. At which point, all Retribution need tell him is that there are endless worlds to conquer and set him loose on the Cosmere. The real potential monkeywrench in the plan would be Dalinar's memories after the Rift through to the end of book 5. We've seen Taravangian steal people's memories before, but that was out of Breaths, not out of a brain, so who knows if that's allowed or not. Mostly, I get annoyed every time I think about how long I'm going to have to wait for some answers. *heavy sigh* Training in his own memories is also an option, but as I said above, the Dalinar of that time loved to fight just about more than anything. I don't really see him fighting as a negative for him, at least not at first.

You're forgetting the other half of that equation though. A Taln who comes back mentally well, rested, and in better fighting shape than he's been in 6,500+ years. I fully expect Retribution to try everything he can to make the Blackthorn impossible to defeat. I also fully expect that to not matter in the slightest when it comes to Taln.

I'm not actually sure why you feel that way when, unless I'm missing something, we're talking about the difference between being right ~1,000 years out vs ~3,500-7,000 years out?

The Blackthorn is like a spren, in that he was made tangible by investiture, but that investiture was converted into matter. For all intents and purposes, he's a clone of Dalinar Kholin. He has all the cracks in his spiritweb that Dalinar did up till the Rift...which is probably quite a lot. Not only will he have surges, what I'm more interested in are the unique surges that Retribution will come up with, being a blend of Honor and Odium.

This situation is the exact reason that confirms for me that Cultivation planned the outcome start to finish. For us, as readers, murdering one's own family and an entire city-state (of 10s of thousands of adults and children) is a disgusting, awful thing to do, but for Koravellum Avast..vessel of Cultivation, who participated in murdering God..taking up a part of its corpse..and having lived for 10,000+ years (7,000 of them on Roshar, witnessing every war and subsequent desolation)? That was "too much" for her? And she just so happened to have "looked away" with her own eyes AND Power at just the right moment that Taravangian could save Kharbranth and keep it a secret? For a guy who never shuts up about how smart he is, he's kinda dumb. There is nothing that Taravangian could do that would make Cultivation avert her gaze. She wouldn't look away if he exploded Roshar into little bits, much less when he supposedly killed his own family. Yes, her agents died, but assassins who try to kill off royalty always run the risk of dying (unless they're Szeth). Unless Brandon writes on a page that she was completely taken by surprise, I am going to assume that the Shard with the best Futuresight we've seen thus far, was not taken by surprise by any of the events of WaT. Not to mention, she'd been withdrawing her investiture for quite a long time...otherwise she couldn't have dipped on a moments notice without some serious issues...none of which seemed to have happened. She just up and went, like she was waiting for her signal to leave. I could be wrong, have been before and will be again, but I'm pretty confident on this one that I'm not.

Did you just suggest that Sylphrena, Queen of Storms, might become a super Radiant/Herald of sorts? Because, all of the sudden, I've never wanted something to be true in the Cosmere more than that!

Just stick them both on a rogue planet, that the Cosmere won't miss too much, and let em go at it. I was pretty sure that was the case, right up until Dalinar gave the Blackthorn all of his memories. Not that Dalinar's memories would give him any sort of advantage over Taln, but that the process of memory/experience transference is now canon. And if Retribution gives the Blackthorn the observations of Honor and Odium of battles, one-on-one fights, and the like, for the last 10,000 years? Well then, that would be an entirely different fight, wouldn't it? Perhaps not a different outcome, but the Blackthorn would no longer be fighting at such a huge disadvantage, if any disadvantage at all. And since when have you seen Taravangian (of all people) do anything at a disadvantage? I fully expect Retribution to OP the Blackthorn as much as he can, without feeling like he would be a threat to himself (Retribution, the Blackthorn is always a threat to the Blackthorn as far as I can tell).

There is that, but the way you phrased that makes me think about El, the cunning scientist, philosopher, and artist. I wonder how much autonomy El has, compared to other Fused, never hearing the rhythms of Odium? He clearly holds a place of respect amongst the Fused. He isn't a pariah. We've also seen how Leshwi took millennia to forge a place just low enough to do what she wants, while just high enough to not be denied. Did she learn that from El's example in some part? El seems to have perfected what Leshwi was trying to do..he also doesn't seem to hold a grudge with Leshwi specifically. None of that necessarily means anything, but it might. This feels like a "yes and" to me. Yes he does want to direct humans, and he seems to feel that the Fused went wrong somewhere, even that Odium went wrong. If he didn't feel that way, he wouldn't have been so excited to find out that Odium had a new vessel..and a human one at that (even though Rayse was human, he just lied about it, and maybe El was aware?).

Ok, i've not re-read YATNP, and that's probably why I didn't pick up on that. I never get everything on the first read. Thank you, that is helpful.

I am still not clear about the blue and magenta in YATNP. I get that yellow is missing for some reason to do with Virtuosity. I also understand that red, blue, and yellow are primary colors. I'm not clear on why yellow is missing from Komashi, but is present for Shallan in the SR? It was commented on several times in WaT (The blue, magenta, and yellow tint to things), and clearly I'm supposed to draw some conclusion(s) has the reader, but as I've never really been clear on hion, I definitely don't know what I'm supposed to take away from Shallan's experiences in the SR? Is there more to this, or is this currently one of those topics that will become more apparent as more Cosmere books are published?

Yeah, that's fair. I did feel like the knowledge of the Wind, Night, and Stone was clearly another one of Brandon's "Hey this is a thing, and has been a thing...stay tuned to learn more about it in 5-8 years" sort of things. I do think it will be interesting, but I'm still bummed about having to wait so long.

The Blackthorn already was option 3 in the SR. All of the things manifested in the SR in WaT were investiture made into physical matter and then back again. I assume Retribution will just move him from the the SR to the PR. I also assume he'll have to do something to keep him from dying, and yeah, option 3 all the way "fleshed out" (see what i did there) would make the most sense.

The back 5 are going to be as much prequel and sequel, deep diving into the actual history of Roshar for the last 7,000+ years. No we didn't know much about her in the front 5 because she was trapped, but she will be very present in the flashbacks (and i really hope in the present) of the various heralds..and Hoid/Wit, if he manages to show up inbetween annoying and confounding Wax. I think it would have been even weirder to have never heard of BAM and then this spren is all over the place in the past. We'd all be asking why we'd never heard of her before the back 5.