DoctaDajman

I guess I have frequently struggled with whether those enhancement metals interact with the investiture at all or just the metal. Because aluminum totally burns all metals within the mistborn at once allowing no use at all. Why then wouldnt it be like an AoE leeching grenade? It seemed odd that aluminum would just do exactly what chromium does but i am curious about that.

I dig this theory. Do you think that aluminum grenade would work as a cosmere wide anti investiture tool? What effects do you think that could have on invested entities? Cosmere wide spoilers: It is bonkers how the future of magic in the cosmere seems to be everyone doing everything that they can to make it so magic just doesnt work.

Forgive me if this has been stated further down (I dont have the time to finish the thread). My biggest apprehension to using any hazekiller scenes as a basis for this measurement (which I think is a worthy goal), is that they are designed to be as anti mistborn as possible. They carry and wear absolutely no metal. They carry shields designed specifically to block coin attacks and study tactics to fight against mistborn. The difference between Kelsiers fight and Vins is in part Vins control over that belt buckle. And I would argue that Kelsier would have been even more deadly with that simple weapon than she was. Also, mistborn from the books were not trained to be soldiers or warriors and when we see Vin act as one we end up with her dancing above enemy lines crushing and cleaving everything beneath her. The measuring device is a great goal but I think mistborn is way under estimated here. The hazekiller setup for a mistborn would be the equivalent to giving a squad of soldiers aluminum coated armor and aluminum chains (to negate the shardblades offensive power the same way hazekillers are equipped to face mistborn). And then train them to tangel and immobilize the shardbearer for a kill. A sound tactic that a hazekiller-esq leader would surely develope against shard bearers. Note that a lot of hazekiller groups would employ a Lurcher just to disarm coin pouches designed to break away and yoink metal vials away. The hazekiller is specifically designed and trained to fight and destroy mistborn and built to be a threat through countering a very hard magic system that was built with the idea of these counters working soundly. It is super fun to read about. I am curious how you would build a group of hazekillers that are specifically designed to fight against all of the other magics out there?

I can echo all of this. The more I think about it the more I like lurching. In fact I have always loved iron feruchemy and thing the two combined makes for, if not the most powerful, one of the most interesting compounders out there. Everything from demolition to free skating on the walls and ceilings of buildings is possible. If there was one thing Wax taught us it is this... F-iron makes everything better. And compounding it with a power that allows for wall walking and spidermaning around on the ceiling just makes it that much more dope. While I found Ranette to be a completely obnoxious character to read about, her scene in Alloy of Law at her workshop was one of my favorite scenes from that era. I dont know what exactly it was about it but I do know that without her being a Lurcher I would have not liked the scene at all. Then in TLM it hinted at being able to change where you pull from. I think that opens a bunch of possibilities as well. If it were to get really explored and expose tricks like developing inquisitor sight or being able to pull object through anything other than your center of mass I think the metal will be popping off. You may not even need the big shield to pull things you could put your hand out to the side, yoink to the hand and then move it. I find it as plausible as moving a speed bubble with yourself and less imbalanced than that. And iron is cheap. Cheap enough that becoming a savant should be fairly simple.

Do you think pewter burner could run the plate and in a way spare the stormlight while doing so to keep the plate healing and working longer?

This is a great way of summing up how I always pictured plate. Perhaps the energy is just the thrill and adrenaline. But the movements are made easy and light. People in plate last longer because they dont have to strain not because the plate makes them strong enough to move effortlessly with 1500lbs of metal on them. Why wouldnt the stormlight heal a user of plate if the plate was directly suffusing the user with stormlight. It doesnt add up. That is always why I question if the plate can hold up to a steel ferrings speed bumps. If the plate is already enhancing everything that the wearer does where is the upper limit there?

So I was always under the impression that Plate would completely override allomantic pewter. But if the plate is actually enhancing the shardbearer themselves and not the plate doing the work for them, then wouldn't the use of other investiture amplify the effects more? Would a pewterarm, or a pewter / steel ferring then increase the effectiveness of the plate? A kandra with the blessing of potency, already doesnt tire. Would they gain more from plate and be plate on steroids? I have to ask a lot of questions now because this takes my whole understanding of plate and flips it upside down. My mind must move to other possibilities. If the plate is able to press stormlight effects into its user could the user push their own invested arts into the plate? Could the spren with an open connection powering the shardbearer be fed feruchemical gold to heal a portion of plate up? Or would tapping steel lend the plate a portion of speed enough to keep up with the user? I always looked at plate as a massive standing suit of armor that was powered by investiture much like awakening. No pistons needed for movement as seen by Kalads phantoms. The investiture is enough to power joints and movement). The idea that plate enhances the user to have the benefits of plate is kind of bonkers. From 5 gems alone too. But I'll take it. If the shardbearers physical capacity is important enough to need to be enhanced by plate for plate to work then why wouldnt an already enhanced being be able to stack their benefits?

Okay. This is interesting. I thought with stormlight gone now this was the only way living plate could work. I assumed that the dead plate would become obsolete with no more stormlight and shardbearers would become more rare but at the same time far more dangerous because all of them would eventually become living plate. (Otherwise what light would power it?) This is where I get a snag in my understanding. Saying plate makes the wearer faster, stronger, more agile, and more durable and comparing it to pewter works... kind of. Pewter is an inanimate object that gets burned and the allomancers body is literally enhanced by it magically. Shardplate doesnt do anything to the user... it is just powerarmor that is powered by the user. Yes there are plate users who feel a sense of power when in the suit but is it magic working through them like pewter or stormlight? Pewter burning can be seen in the eyes (I believe the scene where vin pops that dudes head she mentions seeing it in his eyes). Stormlight is seen in the radiants eyes. These are powers that swell from within the user and make them stronger faster and more durable. All of that is the same for the plate but not the wearer underneath it. The power of plate comes from the spren. It is the spren fueled with magic and they encase their shardbearer in a way that allows that shardbearer to direct that power where they want. The shardbearer isnt actively infused by the power though. Its not that the shardbearer suddenly gets strong enough to lift the plate... its that the plate is powered by investiture and lifts itself in enhanced ways at the shardbearers command, that command being movement.

Interesting. Do you think that nicrosil would simply super charge it then? Like nicrobursting a pewter misting? Because that hints that it is always moving and always using the kinetic investiture then right? My assumption was that there was a ceiling to the power it could use and being pristine made it so that there was a limit there.

I always envisioned plate as being the reason the shardbearer was stronger and faster. I dont recall shardbearers mentioning feeling like their body changed just that what they can do changes in the plate. Evidence of that would be that the Gemstones in the shardplate arent being used up when it isnt taking damage (correct me if I am wrong here). In game terms I figured shardplate has an HP pool of its own and has a battery charged heal over time in the form of stormlight infused gems for dead plate or a direct link to imvestiture when living. (personally I think that is tied to the sprens determination and willingness to stay put which gets healed and fixed with stormlight or investiture directly from the Spiritual realm in the case of living plate). While your shardplate is at 100% health or determination it provides the highest strength boosts, armor ratings, and speed buffs available. This also means that it takes the largest hits to hurt it in this state. Strikes from men do nothing in this state. You need something bigger and stronger to crack it. But once it is cracked it provides less and less. At 90% it provides less armor rating meaning it can take damage from weaker sources and it offers less strength and speed benefits. This progressively gets worse and worse until it is drained of stormlight and no longer able to power itself or try to repair itself. So in regards to nicrosil I just see that battery "heal over time" being used far faster than its natural state. This does kind of break living plate, especially if the battery the spren are drawing from is the Spiritual realm. How would you ever get through that plate if it instantly heals back up everytime the user gets a crack? Knowing that even the unoathed spren cry out when they are injured makes this even more potent. My hypothesis is that, if plate works even remotely how I envision, a nicroburst that finds themselves in plate could basically instantly heal their living plate to 100% of all bonuses everytime it takes the necessary damage to make a spren cry out. Since my theory is that plate takes more damage based on how damaged it is this basically just maximizes the benefits of the armor and, until the nicroburst runs out of metal, the plate gets to near instantly return to its pristine condition. There are no gems for it to run on nor is there a radiant who acts as the battery pack feeding it stormlight. It draws directly from the Spiritual realm and so the nicrosil will get consumed and work all the way until the spren are back to their baseline and arent trying to draw in. It is the spren who are the magic users. It is the spren who feel the need to draw on magical ability to return themselves to their perfect spiritual self. Much like how healing works in all of the cosmere. Nicrosil doesnt drain abilities that arent in use. Chromium drains everything there that it can. But I believe that nicrosil works specifically on people using kinetic investiture actively. The spren using it to heal in this case.

So I have always assumed that chromium would only be able to effect shardplate if the plate was cracked and leaking stormlight and then the plate would lock up faster. But what of Nicrosil? Would it cause the plate to use the stormlight faster and actually heal up quicker? I picture plate as not really using investiture except when it is damaged and thus neither metal would have much effect at all if the plate was fully intact. So put a nicrosil misting inside of plate. Could they use their own nicrosil to cause the plate to use up stormlight and knit itself up faster? Then once it isnt using the stormlight anymore it wouldnt have effect because no investiture would be active at that moment (just like if an allomancer wasn't burning their metal). Likewise... if that was unoathed plate and drawing directly from the Spiritual realm to heal would a nicroburst be able to speed up that process many times over through nicrobursting the armor from within to heal itself? Would there be any interaction with nightblood or another shardblade do you think? Now for awakened objects... we know that awakening cant create some perpetual motion device as the breath would eventually run out. Does this mean that the breath is actually being used up slowly to operate the object? What would happen to an object if a nicroburst were to use their power on it? Could they waste the breaths used to "hold" themselves from the cloth or would the object suddenly crush them if they nicroburst it?

Can Autonomy get to Roshar? I feel like I heard nothing is getting out. Is anything allowed in?

I dont think the timeline works that way. I always was under the impression that Scadrial era 2 took place roughly 10 years after SA 1-5. Maybe it is the other way around? @Treamayne

Reading in the coppermind about each nation and finding updates post RoW for many but not all. I haven't read WaT but welcome all and any spoilers you can give. It may be years before I get to reading it. What is the current state of the nations on Roshar? Who is in the coalition and who is with the other side? Is it still retribution who is over the singers and fused? Are the singers and fused all the same? If you were to draw a risk board how would that look now and what magics are available where? Thanks for all the help getting me caught up!

Any spren could take the form of a true body? I honestly didnt know that. Thanks.

Good morning fellow folks of the 17th Shard. Here with my newest question about creationspren. The coppermind says they can take any shape they want. With that I have to ask about a potential interaction. Would a kandra of the 4th ideal, or perhaps unoathed, or even just a friend to a lightweaver, be able to be supported by these creationspren making up shardplate changing shape to replicate a skeleton? A truebody made of compliant and cooperative creationspren would be totally dope. If the kandra had significant control they could likely morph with the creationspren into other skeletal structures mimicking animals or even just become larger or smaller on a whim. Not to mention swapping the creationspren from internal skeletal structure to an exoskeleton of plate. I know that spren arent fans of hemalurgy, but I figure if any possible oath or bond could be made the lightweaver cryptic and creationspren are the most likely to recognize the kandra for a bond. Regardless of probability, I think the interaction remains the same.

Would a kandra need a skeleton at all if they found a suit of shardplate? Could they just gooify themselves and slip through the eyeslit of a staged set of plate and then fill into the suit itself and run off with it?

Thanks for this. Good to know!

I know the hallmark of the shardblade is that it severs souls. Is it just that insane amount of Investiture that allows it to damage the soul or is it specific to the blade portion of the weapon. We have seen living weapons turned into shields, spears, hammers, forks and smaller knives as well so I am curious if it is the blade that hurts the soul or the investiture? Would all shardweapons damage plate equaly? Or against plate do you suppose mass of the weapon plays more of a part? I am a big shugoki fan and that Kanabo is probably among my ultimate top, non magical, weapon in fantasy (I know low bar). But if you had a massively invested living shardblade taking the shape of a kanabo do you think it would simply be inferior in every way to a shardblade because it is not meant to pass through enemies? Or do you think it may manifest a soulcrushing (literally) side of itself by virtue of what the weilder is expecting it to do? For fun, and because I can... been playing with AI working on a character who will be Unoathed because it got me excited for Stormlight again. Living shards and no completely busted OP stormlight healing. Yes please. (Its probably rediculous how much I like the idea of magic armor that can heal itself and is alive so long as its on a mundane character, while hating the idea of a character that can heal from anything. Oh well)

So, I have always pictured shardplate as enhancing the movement of the user inside. But are there limits to this? Steel runners have to be careful about friction burns but I believe plate is pretty much immune to heat and insulates the user, at least from lightning. So, will the plate be able to move double the speed of other plate wearers if the steel runner inside of it was tapping double speed? Steel runners also have to be careful about the increased kinetic energy of strikes while moving faster as their body isn't necessarily strengthened for it. So, slapping someone at double the speed means double the force on all of those small bones. Punching a brick wall may break a hand at normal speed, double it and a steel runner is almost certain to destroy their own hand and arm. But Shardplate can withstand pretty dang significant amounts of energy. Look at Renarin diving headfirst into the ground in WoR after all. Does that mean that shardplate with a steel runner operating it would be able to withstand all of the impact forces of moving double time or even beyond? It survived its own 1300+ pound self crashing down form jumping off of a building. I couldn't find anything that said how tall the building was but it did say he jumped out away form it 10-12 feet I believe. Mass and velocity for even a 1 or 2 story fall would lead us to a pretty significant amount of energy the shardplate absorbed helm first without cracking. At least I think I remember him making that jump multiple times to prove to himself that the shards will protect him. So, If shardplate is capable of withstanding those levels of energy would a steel runner be able to safely move at double, triple, or even higher speeds and really open a can of destruction on things or is there going to be a limit somewhere in here? Also, I may need to reread but when Adolin wrestles the other shardbearer and it goes to a ground and pound, does anyone remember if his plated punches cause the other shardplate to break while his plate maintains itself? Edit: bonus question. How well do you think shardplate will move with an iron ferring tapping loads of weight? The plate is strong, but could a ferring move from 1500lbs in plate to 3000lbs in plate and because it is plate powering their movements it would be able to move the same speed as it normally does? Where is the weight limit that plate would struggle to move the ferring at typical speeds? Either way, doubling weight or doubling speed should double momentum for nearly any strike. (Not necessarily KE as weight plays less role compared to speed right?)

Can you will the plate to assemble itself underneath your clothing? Or parts of your clothing? Take a stoneward for instance, he wears around a large sash or two like kilts... he wants the armor to cover his clothing when it appears from the cognitive realm but he also wants the freedom to use those sashes for tension things... can the armor tell the difference or is this all tied to his perception of how it should form?

The fact that they dont breathe is a good point. But I am not entirely convinced that means they no longer need cellular respiration. And what of the increased intracranial pressure. Sure these things will be healed through but I fear we are crossing from "stormlight heals" to "stormlight makes it so your body doesnt need to function at all and thus needs no healing". Does their body have no need for circulation at all while stormlight is held? Why then would it use any stormlight at all to heal any wound? The stormlight negates the need for homeostasis at all? What of the damage being done to the neck throat and spine while being constricted? When using the hopper popper or broomstick method of dispatching rabbits their eyes get nice and bulging from the increased pressures. Same with people who hang themselves. There is always some more damage than just the hypoxia as well. Where does the line for stormlight removing the need for bodily function and healing get draw? ECMO removes the need for breathing but not necessarily at the celular level. Does a radiant give up needing to have their heart circulate at all while holding stormlight? It replaces all bodily functions? Would stormlight attempt to heal the coagulating massive blood clots that will form with a lack of circulation? Do we have any WOBs that state the need for circulation at all is removed by stormlight the same way the need for breathing itself is removed? I mean I get what your saying. I have long had issues with stormlights healing and it is well documented that it is my #1 reason for disliking that series. You and the dang Unoathed post got me stoked for a part of Roshar again and my curiosities about Awakened ropes squeezing someone's neck till their eyes pop out of their sockets has got me hating stormlight again haha.

I have wondered about innate investiture as well. If nicrosil hemalurgy can leave a Scadrian less than themselves... worse off than a drab... by removing their innate investiture then I think we may have a glimpse at a possible use of the metal for feruchemy as well. Note that I dont disagree with what the others have said. We know for sure, that it stores the ability to use those abilities (which is closer to how an atium spike works right? Kind of interesting there). But what I think may also be possible is storing the innate investiture that a person has as well. We know that every person has some level of baseline investiture throughout the entire cosmere. And we have seen cases where only innate investiture is increased. Warbreaker and SA spoilers: Obviously the mistborn adventure game is not to be taken as canon at all but when you look at the nicrosil compounding there it allows for small boosts to any Attribute you could store as a feruchemist. In my own mind and justification for how to make that cosmere sound, I replaced that all with the idea that storing innate investiture and then compounding it would likely benefit the person across nearly every aspect of their lives. As I pointed out, every part of your life gets better with more innate investiture. Kinetic seems to be a for sure no no. But that hemalugic scene in The Lost Metal hints that someone on Scadrial is interested in the benefits of innate investiture and my hypothesis is that if Nicrosil Feruchemy could store your innate investiture it would open some true supersoldiery ideas through purely the innate portions of a persons soul.

I am not saying they wont hold out. I'm saying there is a difference between the mechanism of injury. A quick trauma that you heal through and move on is different than a sustained issue. Which is what Wayne was pointing out in that scene. Its easier to heal through a bullet wound than being choked. Eventually the body needs to address the cause of the hypoxia, in this case a magically motivated and strengthened rope obstructing all blood flow to the brain. All a stroke is is a lack of oxygen rich blood to the brain tissue whether through a clot or a big bleed. This is a massive ongoing stroke but the occlusion is in your carotid arteries. Can stormlight heal that? Sure... but a stroke makes you just as dead as a bolt through the head. Only it is a life threatening amount of damage every second that is being healed through until the damage stops. This isnt comparable to shattering both legs and healing them and moving on. Its healing both shattered legs and then they get shattered again and again and again every few seconds. If you would blackout in 2-3 seconds for the lack of blood flow your stormlight or gold needs to heal that much every 2-3 seconds until you address the issue. A bolt in the brain is tough but once it is removed then the healing can happen and be done with. Like a boat with a hole in it. You are desperately trying to get out of a whirlpool that will take you under. If you keep paddling you may get out of the whirlpool but will you have taken on too much water and sink anyway? Or do you plug the hole and then start paddling again? Of course plate negates the entire discussion. Though that is a question on its own. I imagine tangling plate up and trying to tie it down is a legit strategy to stop the progress of a shardbearer. If you had enough guys yoinking on ropes there may even be enough strength there to stop the plate from operating. If you took the same ropes capable of snaring up a shardbearer with 10 or 20 men holding onto it... would awakening on its own provide the same ropes the strength needed to tie up the shardbearer or would the shardplate have enoigh strength to push past what the awakened ropes can hold? Kind of comes back to that question of: Is awakened rope granted strength by the rope itself or by the amount of breaths? Would 200 breaths into dentalfloss be capable of lifting the same weight as 200 breaths of inch thick rope only fail when rhe dental floss fails instead of the breaths? Not sure if we have many answers to that.

This is a good point and one I haven't thought a ton about. I always assumed that an awakened object would have its strength governed by the strength of the material that was being awakened. A 1 inch thick rope would be far better at holding an object than a 1/4 inch rope. Perhaps that is the wrong way of thinking about it though. Perhaps the 1 inch rope is stronger in that it is harder to cut or destroy but its strength in lifting and holding things is determined by the breaths and not the rope material itself. If I want a 25 lb weight picked up by ropes it may be that the breaths have more to do with whether that weight can be picked up than the size of rope. Perhaps 200 breaths limit each rope to the same 200lb max lift? I do remember Wayne fighting Not Wayne and choking her mentioning that it drains gold metalminds faster than you would expect. I dont think he was maintaining that choke for 10 seconds before it started happening. Once that blood supply is cutoff to the brain you can put someone out in a matter of a couple of seconds. The rear naked choke is terrifying. I imagine a rope around the neck would be absolutely devastating. A thick rope would build the pressure so fast like thick arms. A thin rope would be like a garrote. How well would stormlight fix that pressure as it builds up and blood flow is hindered. How likely is someone, even with healing, going to be to ignore that and not instinctively try to get that pressure down and relieve that squeeze. Not that a radiant couldn't ignore it and focus on the task at hand, but I personally think the sensation of being choked would make 99% of people even with healing try to get that rope off. Getting sliced through the spine is a fast high damage attack and that blade is gone and you can heal and all discomfort is over as quick as it started. This would be a constant constriction and blockage of blood flow to the brain. All of the blood that is there would still be trapped there. Maybe the healing makes it like it wasn't happening but Wayne's encounter seems to tell a slightly different tale.