Lemiltock

it was designed for a gang of theives... Atium buys them seconds. How do they break shardpalte without using all of their metals? Radiants fight in wars, battles that last hours at a time, the idea that theyll burn through stormlight faster than a mistborn through metals is absurd. You mean Kaladin and Dalinar? The move that Zahel said was practically suicide, yer im totes gonna treat that as a real strategy, its a hailmary at best that has only work for two of the best non immortal fighters alive. And a hand would react poorly to having its sould cut... Ummm dalinar holding of a chasmfield is significantly more than what weve seen a pewter user do, also why grappel when you have a shapeshifting death stick, get in close, start to drain shardblade to the arm/face game over Either the speed bubble is close enough the radiant is inside or its far enougj tbey live a little longer, they cant shoot througj the speed bubble with any reliability, this strategy works aginst them in close as they can now no longer run away very far. No its not, they dont have the stopping power to beat a radiant, if they live 5 seconds longer is rather irrelivant, and evening seeing the future they still need to get inside the range of a twohand sword/spear against a superfast opponent. Seeing the future wont stop a professional boxxer from punching an amature in the face. They still cant get close to attack, they can avoid, but not dodge with any reliability, while close enough to touch. And once they touch theyre teathered to a deathstick weilding soldier. Against a 4th oath radiant they basically cannot win, because they cant get through shardplate with any reliability or methods tbat dont involve them dead (touching teathers them and its either goodbye arm or goodbye soul) Dalinar stopped a chasm fiend, plate is litterally said to improve strength and speed, look at how when Renarin is learning plate he needs to be careful not to crush things. The strength of plate likely outweighs pewter, pewter arms dont need to be careful when burning puter to crush objects in their hands, or jump across chasms, hell vin managed what a 6ft jump which while impressive is nothing on plate. Then the added durabiltity, stamina and reflexes. Pewter also has rhe doenside of not healing, so a punch ti shardplate maybe cracks it, but they break their arm in the process.

Yes but not the physical action of a two handed sword cutting it. So the other metals get passed through because they dont have rhe alluminum resistance, and the soft aluminum gets destoryed by a two hand sword and a superhuman strength pushing kn it. The bullets/disks cant get through a 4th oaths plate and it doesnt matter what they coat it with. Yer, except the superhumanly strong radiant rips the net to shreds, and themats even assuming they can get the net over the radiant. Yer a 3rd ideal, which is not new information from row, shardplate nullifies the offence of the mistborn. They do not have the stopping power to deal with it. If they push them into a building they get pushed back into one and a sharplate wearing stormlight holding radiant has more durability than a pewter burning mistbron. She was drinking multiple vials, and she was exaughsted after. Stormlight heals the exaughstion not just allowing you to ignore it. And the radiant doesnt need their surges to win, they walk down the mistborn whos burning everhthing to stay alive while the radiant pasivley uses their stormlight even if stormlight runs out faster the mistborn needs to push at 100% to stay alive the radiant needs to run and swing their sword. So id even bet on the mistborn running out first even if they dont die to a shardblade before that point.

A mistborn also runs out of metals, they dont have an infinite supply, and given jasnah fought for hours id say neither will last longer investiture wise than the others. Sure a mistborn might try hit and run, but as already stated, they cant do much damage and the radiant will eventually catch them, either by running them down (mistborn burning their investiture faster) or by catching them with stormlight and shardplate. For a 4th oath radiant it doesnt matter how fair, thats the point. The only way a mistborn wins is while the radiant sleeps and they are always covered by shardplate amd have a non sleeping spren so the chances of getting their one hit kill in the tiny eye slit of invisible armour is almost 0

Not immune to a shardblade, resistant, and the shardblade has enough mass and an edge to cut alluminium, theres a reason the light metal is not used for armour. It will only block lashing being placed throygh the alluminium, and given theirs holes it wont even do that well. Look at the scene in oathbringer with the soulcaster in a room coated in alluminium, it didnt stop surgrbinding within, just adds resistamce passing through. And alluminium wont stop a blade of any kind, or mace, or axe etc etc. It wont remove stormlight, itll stop them healing while its in but thats it, you also need to stap a radiant in shardplate and the aluminium will bounce off at best and bend at worst. Allumimium acts as a resitance field, so the rioeter could riot, just not through the aluminium, the net would likly do nothing given the holes, but investiture has a higher resistance path through alluminium.

That doesnt mean they can make weapoms theyve never used before, or that said weapon would be effective. Hit and run wont work against shard plate, a radiant with stormlight and shardplatr moves faster than the mistborn, so the run doesnt work very well. Can the mistborn run and survive, maybe, but as soom as they engage in anyform of combat they lose. The only chance against a 4th oathr adiant a mistborn has is to sneak past a spren, and stab them between their impenetrable, invisible, always on plate.

So it can be pushed but not cut by a shardblade leaving only the aluminium which is not a very "strong" metal. Why doesnt it then blanket block allomancy then? If it doesnt block allomancy it doesnt block surgebinding In a fight where bith combatants already have their investiture it matter for nothing. If they need to refuel their dead, a mistborn csnt stop mid fight go to a foundary and get some steel. If one doesmt have access to investiture they are limited yes, but thats not what this thread is comparing. Could a mistborn with bags of metal beat a 4th oath radiant whk has no stormlight sure but thats not what the comparison is hence location doesnt matter. Its super cut and dry for a 4th oath, you keep bringing up tenuous things to try and give it to the mistborn, all of which are by the mistborn trying to hailmary their way to victory, does that sound like the kind of strategy used by someone with the advantage? Your ignoring the limits of allomancy significantly. A radiants powers where designed for combat a mistborns where designed for theives.

You mean a super light metal like alluminum, and they cant throw it off? Alumimium blocks investiture it doesnt cancel it, so the radiant is still surounded by heabily invested armour that blocks emotional allomancy and most physical damange. And a shard blade most certainly can cut alluminium, just not as easily as otherthings. Not to meantion how unwieldy an alluminium net would be to carry/thrown and hitting a fast moving radiant with a net before the mistborb eats a shardblade to the face is slim. Location has little bearing on a fight where both have a set of their respective investiture. The most location really provides is anchors for the mistborn. Adding god metals then the radiant has lerisum and atium. Copper doesnt disrupt investiture, it hides it from bronze.

And yet Ishar had no problems opening one. Also we saw Navani provide light somehow

Or just see the hand get close to touching them and burn division as they touch or maybe the ground as they get close? Did you see Nale and lift? Because that was an untrained child against a herald. See above Broze gives you a pulse, sure you know theirs and illusion, but which of these 100 radiants is the real one. Bronze even if they where a savant isnt a geolocator and try telling your eyes thats not the real radiant swinging at you. Or maybe the ground being slightly different or thay super bright light to not blind you... Or soulcast the air around them to oil and then fire? Or just to not O2 See above They can shape stone, why cant they attack with it, or turn the ground under the mistborn to quicksand? Dalinar is not unique in this regard

No it doesnt, if they just stay up in the air the radiant destorys their ankor and they fall down, they have slightly more lateral mostion, but the reflexes speed and strength a radiant gets in plate woth stormlight edges them ahead here. Or you know pull all their weapons to the ground, their clothing, the pursuers head was more invested than a mistborn is. Thowing a rock with 100 lahses at the mistborn, game over man game over. So the mistborn, that needs physical contact to leach the radiant also isnt touching them with divison. Bronze wont show where the radiant is if they are using a huge illusion, plus tell your eyes your not seeing 100 radiants like shallan did. Or for telleporting to them, we havnt seen much of what the radiants can do, but given its the surge of transportation and the oath gates bkth transfer to the cognitive and between two distant physical locations instatly means radiant is in the mistborns face constantly They need an anchor, cohesion moves the ankors under the ground and guess where the mistborn is, on the now sinking ground Perhaps tension was a poor inclusion Isnt that litterally what kelsier did though? And kelsier is not your normal mistborn. Look at all the normal.mistborns in era 1, what where they trained to do? Did they tell everyone ohh hey this persons a mistborn or did they train in secret like assasins.i If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its not a dog

Im not taking any liberty, brandon said possible, with the right gun/bullet/shot/timing. If he shot shardplate at point blank range eith his biggest bullet and pushed on the shot sure. Against an inhumanly fast person his shots will at best glance significsnfky reducing the damage to the section. If its can wax kill a radiant while they stand completley still, sure. But thats taking alot of liberty. The shield doesnt need to cover everything just the center of mass, its hard enough to hit a fats moving target, add that the centre of mass is not invulnerable, not just almost amd youve got to get a head/arm/leg shot on an inhumanly fast object. Good luck with that even for wax. They can close any useable range difference, adolin can thrown his shard blade. Even if the mistborn can eaaily dodge the thrown shardspear thats time theyre not aiming well which is more missed shots on the jnhumanly fast radiant. Their range is then nullified, and theyve done zero damage. Stormlight plus shardplate increase strength speed and endurance, the mistborn either full flees and burns through their metals or they slowly retreat and get caught. Thats ignoring any surge. Add surges and the mistborn stands zero chance, but no surges just running in shardplate and full of stormlight and the mistborn has less speed and dexterity, thekr advantage is with cornering due to push/pulls. So no the mistborn cant run, they cant out maneouver or out run them, at least not for long. Until theyre out of atium which is what 5 sword swing? 6? And then the atiums gone and they need more and theyve got to avoid a super fast super strong compabtant on close range with a magical sword that instanlty kills without atium. Atium buys them seconds not minutes or hours. Ive covered this several times now, if the radiant stands till and a gun gets unloaded straight on will it break the plate sure. But the radiant is moving super fast with a shield covering center of mass. So the mistborns not breaking amything. And even straight on shots "a couple of shots" is only enough with litterally the most powerful bullet in existance on scadrial, but again its got to hit thr extremities of a very fast target. Coins wont do anything to plate, naybe if they pushed bullets but a coin wont penetrat plate, it will slide off doing nothing. As to them pushing up, thats a difference of force vs acceleration they an push down against the earth with more force than their body weight, thats all them flying with steelpushes says. No im not, im taking a radiant of the 4th oath vs a full mistborn, thd first will likely be far less rare than the second. Is Kaladin the same as every other 3rd oath radiant before he swears his 4th, no, is vin the same as every other mistborn , no, so im not taking any liberties here. And i havnt brandon said on a battlefield, ie in a fight kaladin wins, and that was preplate. It significsntly implies assasination, ie the opponents dont know the others coming. Mistborn are assasins thats what their power leads to, radiants are warriors, in a straight up.fight the warrior wins. So not vin anymore? Vin beats elend every day of the week, the reason Kaladin and Vin are so dangerous is not because they have more raw power, which is why these com0arisons dont include them and instead a normal level of skill. Litterally every fight with a shardblade (radiant or otherwise) has been one vs one or one vs many. The sharblade can hurt allies as easy as enemies hence they fight effectivley 1v1. The kaldin wob is pre plate, so the stopping power becomes an issue as well as atium burning quickly, theyll run out after 5/6 dodges and then have to get more while dodging a close, superfast radiant with a massive death stick So for the 5 seconds they cant be hit, they live a little longer, against a 3rd oath and lower sure, but given the 4th oath, the just live a little longer. The manouverability provided by stormlight and plate more than matches a mistborn. So without taking into account specific surges which likley trivialies this encounter (adhesion, gravitiation, divison, illumination, transportation, cohesion and tension) so basically only edge dancers dont have a trivial solution and progression plus abrasion increases theire mobility and survivability. A mistborn is a theif and assasin, they wear no armour (see no defence) and utilize small weapons (coins bullets, knives) and have been trained to fight other zero defence people. Radiants are magic knights trained to fight other magic knights, with magical plate (see max defenece) and a morphing weapon. At the 4th oath in a 1v1 fight the mistborn gets stomped. Below that oath its a much closer fight

Wax, for the most part, uses a speality weapon, firing specialty bullets and has incredible skill at both shooting and pushing bullets. Brandon also in WoB its said as possible, not that wax can just fire off a shot and it work, it also assumes hitting the target. Which a radiant can turn their shardblade into a shield and just run them down. You mentioned a modern bolt action rifle, of the mistborn has just any gun, so can the radiant, also a radiant could have a similar gun, afterall they dont require magic to use. But in either case sprenblade becomes a shield, they run down the mistborn at inhumanly fast speeds while bairly burning through their resources and the mistborn needs to use everything to stay away. The bullets and coins shot csnt damage the shield and will barly scratch the exposed (no flat) pieces of plate and their range is nullified. I disagree both have good mobility, but the mistborn requires anchors to push/pull a radiant just has better than pewter constantly, live plate plus stormlight. They also have significantly more deffence and healling, a mistborn cant get hit at all, while a radiant cant tank several life threatening attacks. And again keeping that distance will be hard even if it mattered, because they cant get through live plate. There are 4th iath skybreakers that arnt even named, wax/vin/kelsier/elend/kaladin etc etc are more skilled than a normal non named person. The oaths are also less about skill and more about the person (ie accepting and living the oaths). But even so, Kaladin would beat Vin, and that was before he had liveplate, now he slontzees her, and she was the most skilled mistborn So a radiant in almost impenitrable armour, with a weapon that kills transforms and kills the soul (and can become an unbreakable shield) that is both inhumanly strong and fast, coupled with insane healing cant beat a person throwing/shooting coins and bullets at them. The fight is litterally a person vs a tank. Are the mistborn incredivle assassins, yes, can they take down a litteral magic knight, in magic armour with a magic sword in a 1v1 fight not a chance. And given live plate is also always around, the assasinatiom turns into a 1v1.

I thino Kaladins quest to provide mental health support for Roshar, and his quest to heal Ishar will lead to more development and a step up to the 5th oath, or potentially (albiet a crazy long shot and id prefer 5th oath) either an honor blade for progression or a new spren bond. IMHO the 5th makes mores sense and covers Kaladins protection to beyond phyically protecting people, maybe even a protect people from their selves/past or something. I dont see Kaladins arc stopping here.

The problem is Kaladins 4th oath has nothing to do with leadership, its about forgiving himself for failing to protect people (protecting himself). And the 4th skybreaker oath is not about confidence, its about proving to their spren they are seeking justice. To take this further, none of the else caller oaths will likely line up with wisdom or being careful (seeking potential) or distbringers self master is unliley to line up with bravery or obediance. The oaths are a progression of the orders ideal, for wind runners its about protection (including one self) for skybreakers its justice, every oath we have seen have a clear link to the corresponding orders ideal. A tentative ohh but by protecting himself kaladin can lead better, still makes the oath about protection.

Yer i feel we dont have any hints short of the skybreakers for the 5th oath. At least with the 4th we had the gem archive even if it pointed a little away from accepting you cant save everyone. We also dont have hints on what it provides either, beyond the completion of the bond between spren and radiant. Given its the last step i feel its an embodyment of the order type deal, ie protection, justice, truth etc etc

The down side to leadership, is no oath we have seen has matched the attributes, so much as the order (i will protect, remember, speak my truth etc). The 5th oath will IMHO be about embodying that order, how its worded im not sure, because i am protection doesnt have a ring to it, and kals 4th oath wasnt as standard in wording as the ealier ones

In a 1v1 fight a radiant (4th oath or higher) wins, without taking into account the specific orders powers, in an assasination attempt, maybe, the mistborn. At the 3rd oath its a more interesting fight and comes down to if the mistborn can not be hit, below the third the mistborn has the advantage. This is due to the clear stopping power advantage of a shardblade, and then for 4th and up the huge defense offered by shardplate. They need Rysium for this because thats how the fussed manage it. So not really an option, they also need to pierce skin, which shardplate protects against. And being a god metal means they cant push on that portion of said weapon. As stated above, doesnt matter at 4th, at erd they could assisinate and maybe win a straight fight, below 3rd theyre ahead. A bullet has much more stopping power (shape of the projectile, the excelleration shown from steel pushes, not being tied to your own mass. So a gun is an upgraded version of a steel push. Not to mention they can push the bullets. Look at wax, hes a steel savant and yet he sti uses guns.

That quote is a with the right bullet in the right moment, not a yes and wax is not typical either. Certainly more stopping power than said rocks, however, how many bullets are they carrying, can they hit a very fast moving target, what about if the radiant shoots back (woth either bow or gun) theyve got to hit a fast mast moving almost impenetrabale killing machine that is shooting back and hope they kill it before it gets to them. Easy money is still on the radiant. This WoB as stated above is tenuous at best. Could it be done, by a steel savant whos almost supernaturally good with his gun, using the most advanced gun and bullet of his time with the right shot at the right moment. Thats not a person with gun beats shardplate, thats a wax has the skill and weaponry to get lucky.

The down side to this analysis is the shardplate. Normal plate armour cannot take several blows from maces let alone from strength enhanced maces, yet shardplate handles this fine. It took minuets of Sadeas on the ground, a group of parshendi (strength enhanced warform) swinging with full body swings with maces/hammers, thats hundreds and hundreds of blows and Sadeas was still fine inside his shardplate. Guns, especially with duralium give much more stopping power, but thr amount they would need, if we assume they would work, is more than they can carry.

So he cuts a hole in the hand in the half second before hes squished Renarin displayed a level of healing here akin to miles hundred lives. Yes it was likley enhanced by progragression but radiant healing is pretty op. And a thunderclast has much more stopping power than a mistborn. No, radiants in live plate and with storm light have at least the same reflexes and have more strength. Atium does give the mistborn a slight edge when burning it, but only while burning it. They are still a knife weilding cloth wearing person against magical sword weilding magical plate wearing person. For chromium they need to touch, to touch they need to move from out side the radiants range, touch them and move back out side said range so thats their atium gone for a second of touch, and at best they lose an arm in the process. It doesnt matter if you can see the future if the oppomenent can effecfivley cover themselves. Which a weapon morphing radiant can easily do. No weve seen atium allow a user to out manover. The difference in mistborn is for either party one shot is a kill (knife and cloth vs knife amd cloth) with a radiant the mistborn needs to do significantly more damage, just to get thriugh the plate, let alone the healing. Atium does not win them this battle unless they have unlitited, in which case unlimited stormlight stops thd plate from breaking ever and the radiant still wins. A normal gun against normal plate i agree wins every time, but shardolate is not normal plate, and live ate is likely better. A gun gives the mistborn more stopping power yes but given radiants can be engaged in battle for hours with warform parshendi swinging swords and maces, get beaten on by sharbearers for minutes etc etc. Shardplate is too much for a mistborn to handle. Not to mention getting into and out of range of the radiant. Which they get what 5,6 of these before theyre out of metal? Duralium increases stopping lower, but not enough to one hit kill a radiant so this is likley a poor tactic on the mistborn. We havnt yet seenive plate lock up, given its powered by living spren it may break for a time but i doubt sith the same draw backs. In either case the mistborn needs to drain said plate while not using all their metals. Given their lack of stopping power its not possible. At best the duralium pewter swing and maybe crack a piece, but then their no metals in melee range of a weapon morphing kill machine with enhanced strength and reflexies, ie theyre dead A bullet generates more power than a single hammer swing, but on several occasions weve seen minutes of beatings by crowds of stegnth enhanced foes and the plate hasnt been broken yet. So maybe they unload their weapon, dualioum push on it and crack a plate, what then. They can only carry so many bullets and metals, they run out before theyre through the plate Coins have very limited mass, not much velocity, and a terible shape for penetration, shardplate easily withstands thousands of coins shot at them. Better than nothing, sure, likely to succeed, no.

As i stated earlier, the mistborn wearing no protection needs to touch the radiant who has a morphing death stick, so maybe they drain some investiture, maybe it works on live plate, but the definitley lose an arm and probably their life. Even with atium a dagger vs a long spear or twohand sword doesnt end well for the dagger.

So Renarin got litterally pancaked and you dont think his head was injured, what did the thunderclast miss him? It squished him from above his head took the brunt of the impact. Its more about their proficiency with the shardblade, soldiers still practice individual drills, especially with how shardbearers have to fight (collateral damage and all). Yes plate can break, but not easily You mean where Sadies was being beaten on by tens of Parshendi constantly for minutes and was still alive in his plate, yer its pretty insurmountable especially on a 1v1 situation. So the problem witn chromium is touch right. And what happens when the mistborn touches a radient with a glowing death stick? At best they lose an arm, permanently, at worst they eat a shardblade to the face, depending on if they have atium or not. Thats even assuming it works against plate. Yer it can break, but look at Adolin it took 4 men in shards beating at him and it still only broke two pieces and drained his light. And that was dead plate Could a mistborn kill an incapacitated radiant in plate sure, could they incapacitate said radient first, not likely. A mistborn takes one hit to kill, the radient takes hundreds if not thousands to incapacitate. A mistborn doesnt have the stoping power to beat plate.

No i think she was less than helpful giving Odium a nuke, what help was she to the people of the tower, how did she save anyone. She didnt she wanted knowledge and didnt care about the cost tk achieve it. I dont disagree that Navani is a suitable bondsmith or that it wasnt foreshadowed, my issue is no one cares she made a nuke for Odium, if she had waited after making warlight at the very least if not earlier, remember she gave up the location of a node, she could have continued after the tower or she was free, but she didnt she had to prove herself it wasnt about saving anyone it was showing how great she was to a monster as @MyrmidonOfAchilles excellently put it. So even you see it wasnt about saving anyone, Navani could have carried water and Kaladin would have saved the day and Odium would have not ended uo with a nuke. What she found was impressive, but, she should have waited until she could discover it without Odium finding it. She could have fostered singer human relations by working with them in administrative manners, or working with the singers, or by helping the humans in Ur to work with them. But instead she chose to chase knowledge and acceptance from a monster which resulted in giving Odium nukes.

Renarin got litterally flattened by a thunderclast and shrugged it off but sure. I imagine due to these orders being more military in nature. Ahhh and yet shardplate wearing men with shard hammers dont instant win over shard baldes. The simple fact is a live shard blade offeres better offence then a mistborn, live shardplate offers better defense, and at best a mistborn need to rely on atium to beat impenetrable armour while wearing cloth and wielding daggers. Your comparing a tank vs a man without armour and a pistol. Even if the man can see the future for a small amount of time they cant so anything to the tank.

She didnt keep fighting though, what did she fight for, her knowledge? She created the equivelent of a nuke for Odium, thats not fighting its working for the enemy. Yer it worked out for her, because everyone was like ohh yer you made a nuke, Odium used it to kill a spren already ahhh well your a bondsmith though so good job. When Kaladin and Dalinar kept fighting, it was them not giving into Odium, not them working for him for some promise of knowledge down the line. Navani didnt even not write down what she had discovered, she left them a manual. As to who saved the tower, Navani didnt, Kaladin did. Who gave the people hope, who defended the towers nodes, who resisted against the fused, who kicked them out. Yes bonding the Sibling helpped but Kaladin fought the whole time, he gave hope, amd after swearing the fourth oath he woukd have beaten the fussed sibling or not. Navani did not save anyone she created a nuke for her own advancement, this is the problem I have, i get mistakes, if shed stopped after the first, or only made one sure, but she made multiple, all in the name off some obscure knowledge while dealing wuth Odium. She was played and she should have known better.