Lemiltock

Is it, Kaladin needs bags of gems to acomplish anything big (or a highstorm). And if he had not brought enough, or used then to get where he is needed, why would he not use more if he could tap directly into the spiritual. I disagree here, Honor provided this, This doesnt really lean either way, he is a spren and likely saw what the heralds did with honorblades and compared that to what the shin have done and consider it less. But it is possible. No but you said if they dont know how to do something. The Shin copied the heralds abilities. I.E. they picked up the Honorblade saw what the Heralds had done and tried to copy it. Given the heralds had no relience on Stormlight due to Honora conduit the Shin would have tried to replicate this. The Heralds however did not bond their blades in the way the shardbladea are bound (see talns dropping) so the next closest thing is a dead eye blade that requiers 10 seconds and hence the shin copied that trait (many years later once gems where affixed as originaly the shards could not) No it drains the investiture stored, it still needs a metal, but the metalmind is drained while its used. If it drew from the spiritual it would not get drain, which it does, hence the investiture comes from whats stored in the metal mind. This also explains why the bands of mourning are much more powerful than any other necrosil metalmind, because Kalsier compounded and stored a huge amount of investiture in it. Which wax drained while using the powers he didnt have, proportional to how much he used.

I would just like to add to @Isilel incredible post, when in the history of humanity have we faced a litteral god using magic trying to destroy the world, so some suspension of disbelief needs to be applied. When your only hope are the radients of which Jasnah, Dalinar and Kaladin (a darkeyes with slavebrands) are all leaders then they have significant power to change things. Also there has been a one year time gap its not like Jasnah, a women, became queen and said women are now better because I said so. She is also a very logical person, hence it make sense that she would see holding someone back based on gender to be stupid, afterall doesnt Jasnah think she is the most capable person in the world and she is infact a women.

Yes but the difference between enough spheres to fly and enough to fight is significant. For the same reason the stormfather is needed for investiture through the highstorms. If nothing is required why doesnt wit just start surgebinding, afterall the investiture is just there in the spiritual realm Because the Shin didnt find that out by looking at what the heralds had done and trying to repeat it. So the honorblade now has two seprate components and you need to not use one to consider it. Ocums razor applies here, if the honorbladea provided stormlight efficientcy would never be a question. The heralds didnt bond the honorblades in the same way that shardblades are now bonded so they had nothing to copy. The stored alomantic invetiture. I.E. someone draws investiture from the spiritual realm and stores it in the necrosil metal mind, when the non alomancer draws the now unkeyed alomantic inveatiture. The person using the necrosil metalmind doesnt draw from the spiritual like a normal alomancer

He did use surge binding just not large amounts of it. He may have not thought he needed to resort to that and not brought enough stormlight to surgebind at a large scale, if honor being dead didnt affect this then he could have just drawn stormlight straight from the spiritual. Yes, but the access that mind used to provide is no longer there. Hence they can still surgebind but they can no longer draw investiture directly from the spiritual through honor. That is also likley They do, but they require significant stormlight which adds a hurdle to a non herald using it. Rather than just a you need to hold the sword Yes if the honor blades are not conduits to honors power efficiency is taken into acount Not if the honorblades grant the stormlight and not honor. If its the honorblades then everyone who holds the blade has unlimited stormlight, if they dont provide stormlight then efficiency is in the mix as non heralds can wield it. Yes by a non herald who has to atain stormlight in the normal method. The shin have held the honorblades since they where abandoned so they would have know if the heralds could draw on huges amounts of stormlight and try this. Yes, but the example wasnt are the honorblades like allomancy they where likened to a necrosil metalmind.

Which if he had unlimitted stormlight why wpuld he not? He clearly has limited stormlight due to him not using alot of it or glowing like a beacon. There is no mind behind the power, it exists and can be sued but Honor no longer shapes it. He implied they had other powers not granted by an honorblade and worded it with not the powers normally associated with them. Perhaps I ahould word this differently. Why would Honor create a weapon that grants access to his power directly and the only requirement be that the user hold it especially when you consider his desire to hold everyone to oaths. They where weapons created and designed for the heralds, who are bound by oaths and have access to stormlight through Honor While the spirtual realm is a fuel tank, it is not the fuel tank in question. It is the person holding the honorblade. If the honorblades are conduits to the power from the spiritual realm they esentially become the powersource themselves. Here the fuel tank in the person holding the blade not the spiritual realm. A conduit removes the tank and joins you directly to the source which removes efficienty you have an infinite resource so you are dividing infinity which provides no real information. Hence if they are marked by their inefficiency they do not connect to the source. Brandon however does, and he talked about ineffieciency and didnt wiggle in the answer. Yes the same mechanics, gives you the ability to use a specific investiture for a specific purpose. A necrosil metalmind doesnt give access to investiture from the spiritual at all, and is not part of what is granted, its the ability to use investiture that is granted.

He used his blade, and the only 5th oath radient power we didnt see is plate, which he was never in danger of dieing, however he could have achieved his goal of killing/capturing lift with a 100x lash of a rock aimed at her, or a building wide Division. Honor is shattered Yes theyre powers, but the powers we would associate with them. And the surgebinding was granted to maintain the oath pact, as was honor granting them stormlight to fuel said stormlight. If they generate the stormlight(by pulling it from the spiritual) they are the fuel tank. It stands something is not inneficient if it has an unlimited resource that it generates. Efficiency is not a scale that can account for an infinite. To phrasd this better, How long you can surge bind for using an honorblade while having infinite stormlight is not an efficiency question. It requires that the sorce be limited for effieciency to be equatable The necrosil metalmind draws from its own investiture pool, not from preservation. Thats why they run out, its not a make this once and use it forever, its a make this with X amount of investiture and run it until theres no more investiture. If this was not the case they would not need to be refilled. While possible, that its questioned implies that the magic system as it stands could result in honor dieing affecting the honorblades.

Except lift escaped him multiple times. So if he had access to power that could capture/kill her why did he not use it. The most likely amswer is he doesnt have that power. Honor has been shattered. The stormfather has merged with Tanavast cognitive shadow or a part of it. Not with the shard of honor so Honor as a shard is shattered in to pieces and is no more until someone reconstructs it. But you would also say they have shared power, not that they grant different powers. The first they are definetly known for and the second stormlight provides so I would also say they are know for this. Why choose heralds if anyone holding the honorblades could surgebind with all of honor power especially if we consider Honors penchant for oaths. This would be true if the engine and fuel tank are seperate, if the honorblades draw the stormlight themselves they would not be inefficient. They are only inefficient because they require external stormlight. Which is the point they dont draw their stormlight from the spiritual directly and hence are inefficient Exactally and the similar underlying fundamentals is they give someone who csnt use the magic access to the magic. Not the ability to draw investiture directly from the spiritual realm. Yes it is tenous, but the implication that it could is itself evidence however weak.

This doesnt support him being able to access unlimited stormlight. I could see this. Again this support them not having access any longer as honor is dead Yes, different powersets. If they granted different surges and stormlight it wouldnt be different powers as they would all share a common power. It says they cant surgebind (the powers we are familiar with) but implies they have other abilities. This is him being cagy but they do have other powers and the powers they are known for is surgebinding. They would be more efficient if they could draw and unlimited resource as their tank would never empty. They are less efficient because they where designed to be wielded by people with unlimited stormlight, hence they do not grant unlimited stormlight themselves. Yes use the magic power not generate the magic resource, a necrosil metalmind does not granted unlimited inestiture, it has a set amount thats been stored. I agree this was less that they can still and more the "there are questions on if they still can" this wording implies something with the honorblades has changed.

Then why did Nale not use huge amounts of stormlight to capture/kill Lift? And why cant non heralds do this? Also that WoB you linked reads he gave them honorblades and access to his essence, not that he gave them honorblades which bad access to his essence. Theres also a couple of WoB that support this. The evidence is weak, but still more supportive that Honor the shard is required for the heralds to draw stormlight from the spiritual. This one says that each honorblade grants a different set of powers, ie they dont give the same power (access to the spiritual realm). This one says the heralds have powers seperate from the honorblades. This likely encompaces more than just retrieving stormlight directly from honor but it stands as a function of the hearlds. This one mentions they use more stormlight, which would not be an issue if they granted access to the spiritual realm. They are similar to necrosil metalminds ie if invetiture is there they can use it. While this one talks about oathgates, Brandon uses they could, but the question on if they still can i.ies something has changed.

As i said the issue is with the conduit. The stormfather is his own conduit, so his conduit is not broken the power can still flow from the spiritual realm. The honorblades, however, are not their own conduit, they are connected the spiritual by the shrd Honor which is broken. This is the same reason why Syl cant manifest stormlight despite being a piece, she has no conduit to draw stormlight from the spiritual realm.

Certainly, but its not that the honorblades have lost their ability to draw stormlight, just their conduit (Honor)

It comes through the Stormfather not the e shard of honor.

Nale does, and weve seen him surgebind while in possetion of it. But yes i agree this one is vague, and minor at best Only when hes talking about the amoubtnof investiture, but the mind behind it is diminished. So there is not less honor keyed investiture because he was shattered, but the shard itself is diminished (not whole) because there is no mind behind it.

Brandon does say had, instead of has which is only minor but hints at it not being available any more Theres also a couple others that talk about splintering making them less than before or affecting people using their magics

Honor is also now shattered and we did not see Nale draw unlimitted stormlight when hunting Lift. Its possible but unlikely that the heralds with blade in hand can still draw the same amount of stormlight, if any at all, as they could pre Honors shattering.

Theres this WoB that basically confirms that while they would be more powerful, its not significant.

Gavilar certainly, but Elohkar and Jasnah would not be considered warlords. How many slaves have the Alethi taken from the parsh in their war of retribution, zero so in the entire time Elohkar was king he captured zero slaves. Neither is Jasnah adding slaves to her kingdom by war and deciding shes changed her mind. For over 7 years the Alethi have not captured a single slave through war. And you think its somehow rediculous that Jasnah would be against slavery?

Which is not how the book has presented it. Litteraly the first we hear about it is Dalinar ousbing against the idea. This indicates Jasnah has to fight for it. I would possibly understand this complaint of the books hadnt shown significant social chsnge already and if it was a throw away line that there are no slaves. Instead the books show several social changes (men can read, eye colour significents changing, women fighting and queen etc etc) and they also show Jasnah raising the idea and even Dalinar opposes her. Also people have in this very thread called the argument that slavery is bad stupid hence I will also disagree that noone is saying slavery isnt evil.

I didnt realise that Jasnah was a roving warlord through her own lands and so this line of reasing holds no water when evaluating why Jasnah would want to free the Alethi slaves. Also Jasnahs suggestion is not to kill the slaves, she wants to free and pay them for their labour, the labour will still be there. Ahh so its stupid to think slavery is bad, exain to me how its not because so far your only argument is warlords and free labour both of which are not very sound arguments. And yes War is bad, this is why just about every country currently tries to negotiate peace first, because war is one of the most terrible things that can take place. Bad and necissary often go hand in hand, however, war is often necissary against an oppressor not for the oppressor (see slavery) I never implied, nor has the books, that this change would haooen over night. Infact changes to the strict heirachy have been happening from the start, Kaladin a dark eyes was unofficially engaged to a light eyes, he was put in charge of the kings guard and out side the command structre. Dalinar is learning to read, there are female radiants. All of these things upend the perfext heirachial system and have been happening for as long as the books. Doesnt feel earned how? Because the first we see of it is Dalinar fighting Jasnah over it, or because of all the changes weve seen through the books of scocietal change? But sure its a cheap morality play...

Given Brandons penchant for abiguity in WoB he could be saying no povs from an active dustbring, which Navani is not yet (flimsy I know). However I too think she is the likely candidate for the sibling, although given how artifrabians spren fish, it may also be possible that spren are ignoring her like they do Adolin.

There where a couple of things I took from your post, and I feel I addressed the otheres further in my post. The part you quoted was in response to this From there I went on to disagree that labour is the most valuble thing people can provide. Just because short sighted people saw more to gain individually than as a whole throughout history, does not make slavery suddenly objectivly good. You also mention that you would be disatisfied if Jasnah as queen of her people decided that slaves are infact her people too and she has a respons ability to all her people. Hence she wants them free. Just because humans did something for thousands of years, does not make it: A) an objdctivly good thing B ) a "moral play" to go in a different direction As for the ecconomic costs, sure change brings with it costs, bit the gains far outweight the losses, especially when we consider the magic elements of roshar (soulcasters) and their already militaristic laws.

I certainly agree theres something more going on with the heralds, but I think that the reason talns madness is worse is because of the additional torture he received i feel. Here a WoB on the heralds being magically messed up, not just from totrute etc. However i do think Taln is worse because of the aforementioned torture And a couple more on the topic

I think 4000 years of torture explains Taln

I do not think that an argument along the lines of "that someone once thought and argued that slaver was good, and they where considered smart so they cant he wrong" is a good tactic to take. From slavery is objectivly bad, i think the argument boils down to inteligence vs labour. If all your citizens are slaves they are not educated and of they are not educated they are not using the best resource for the betterment for society after all it is our brains that seperate us from everyone else. To put this thought more succinctly, to remove slavery is a step towards .ore free citizens, that are able to learn and improve society by more than the sweat of their brow. How many Ramanujans have been lost to the world because of slavery. Technological advancements far outweigh any increase in labour force, look at what computers have done. While slaves dont stop technogical advances, having all of those slaves as free citizens able to be educated certainly speeds up the rate of technological advancements, qnd hence is an objectivly good thing to do.

For 1 & 2 I dont think that sufficiently covers it, the highprices were classed as rulling together until Gavilar united them. To a peasent it doesnt matter if they rule together as a single unit or they rule together as in they are the rulers. The use of together allows a level of ambiguity that you have not sufficently justified for your theory to hold. 3. how do we know that he doesnt have a perpendiculart on Braize? Also he has fused who can surgebind and odium spren bith of these are him investing. 4. Perhaps my hyperbole was too extreme. However the broken one could easily refer to Odium and Rhyse, after all Rhyse will has been broken and taken over by Odiums will. Its again an ambigious term, for your theory to hold it must refer to Honor and you havmt provided conclusive evidence of this. Or perhaps Cultivation is broken is broken in some way, Dalinar was the first human to see her in centures. Or it may have been refering Dalinar/Elohkar ruling they could both be considered broken. Yes Honor was shatered but broken can be a very ambigious term, especially when its used as a title. As sherlock holmes would say "it is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensivly one begins to twist fact to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts"