ScadrianTank

13 hours ago, The Technovore said:

smh, the S v R thread is transmitting infectiously through the forums. Soon no one will be safe, soon the entire fandom will be split into a civil war that will make the creators of Batman v Superman and Godzilla v Kong green with envy. The war is inevitable. Odium reigns,

This thread is not the first, nor will it be the last. S v R topic will spread into RoW Character discussions thread, then Cosmere thread. It will become a thread of threads, a mighty discussion whose post count far overshadowed those of its predecessors. It will forge a unified empire that covered half of the 17th Shard. An unparalleled feat!

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I could have sworn it was in the Mistborn annotations, but the best I can find is this: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/291/#e11199

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

here

  Reveal hidden contents

Yeah, I think 2008 is close to a point where a WoB should be considered questionable. After reading Wax's final battle with Miles, beheading doesn't seem much of a reach.

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

It'd also help if soulcasting preserved volume instead of mass, but as we see both with Jasnah's stone into smoke in Kharbrant (smoke billows out) and the soulcasting of air into rock, I think, on the Shattered Plains (air rushes in), mass seems to be what's preserved.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Also a good point :/ I keep forgetting this detail of soulcasting. That does make using casts and water bit less practical.

I'm sure you can account for it because modern plastic molds have to account for expansion/condensation of material. You'd just have to spend some time filing and/or grinding the part.

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

(of note is that, according to Brandon, Rashek lied about surviving decapitation, had he been properly decapitated it'd have killed him, presumably making the guillotine an effective method to kill invested individuals

Do you have a source for this?

Because here is him saying the opposite:

Quote

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

A fist sized rock is plenty dangerous at speed, you don't have to be sending boulders flying, also, Szeth using the Honorblade lashes a piece of rock large enough to stand on on his way to Gavilar, so a third/fourth oath radiant could probably act like artillery fairly easily, given the greater efficiency of radiants.

Only if they improve accuracy. Shooting small rocks at a moving target at subsonic speeds is dangerous, but aiming at things with your hands won't be easy. 

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I believe the small craft needed the crew to be storing weight, but was fine otherwise, but the large ship required priming with iron feruchemy, implying it needs to be lighter.

21 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Your quote is great but it is about the lifeboat not their main ships.

Smaller ships needed the crew to decrease their weight with F-iron, and larger ships need to have their own weight reduced. This makes sense because their methods of propulsion are quite basic.

21 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Windrunners are relatively fast and maneuverable compared to their usual opponents, but that doesn't mean they are absolutely fast or maneuverable.

Windrunners and fighter planes powered by Gravitation would be tough to deal with, even with our tech. Their ability to completely reverse their direction without losing much momentum makes them significantly more difficult to track,

16 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Then blam, soulcast the water into metal, making all the necessary parts for a gun.

That would be great if firearms could be made reliable from any blend of steel. Gunsmiths and engineers spent decades refining materials used in the creation of firearms.

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

At most, we know for certainty that Adonalsium created the Rosharan System

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

because we don't know for a fact that Adonalsium 'created all of existence',

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And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.

And because all Investiture originates with Shards, and by extension, with Adonalsium...

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

but that doesn't necessarily make him what Jasnah would consider a God or worthy of worship.

There is nothing that would make Jasnah or someone like her consider a thing worthy of worship. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Why the need to differentiate?

I have no clue.

Because physiology is different? 

On 28.05.2021 at 8:52 PM, Harrycrapper said:

If God can be killed, is he really God?

That is the question of the cosmere, isn't it? If a being or a force created all of existence, not calling it God because it died seems a bit too proud, IMHO. 

On 08.09.2020 at 5:28 PM, paperstones said:

I'm wondering if by Dawn they mean Adonalsium

I think, in the cosmere, they call their version of Big Bang - the Dawn. Adonalsium created the cosmere with a variation of "Let there be light" - that became the literal and metaphorical dawn in this universe.

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

Does stormlight actually help here? The problem with the society getting weaker is a matter of breeding - it doesn’t matter if you can get stormlight for mistborn if you have no more mistborn. Even if they got stormlight there’d be the same amount of people able to use it

As I said in the op, it's two different problems - one is fewer people with powers, the other is people who have them are weaker. But with the medallions, they already have a technological way to make people Metalborn technologically. And I believe it's likely that Nicrosil Compounding works with the ability to use magic is essentially by making a copy of that Investiture, not making it stronger, denser, etc. Because, again, Nicrosil works like Coperminds, and we've seen there being copies of memories - Sovereign's "coins".

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

It DOES make sense that Preservation-light can be made from RoW’s Navani chapters,

This is something we knew without Navani and before RoW.  We already know that the mist is Preservations gaseous Investiture and Navani's chapters have nothing about making new Light out of nothing. All she was doing was combing and inverting them, not splitting or making completely new ones. 

6 hours ago, lipat97 said:

so unlimited power mistborn are fully possible for us to see in the future

Like Vin? Three hundred years ago?

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

(Stormlight question mark?)

I actually started writing that the Bands might already be powered by Stormlight but cut that out because the description in BoM is clearly of the Mist, and neither Marisi nor Wax experience the storm inside them and so on.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

And so, by extension, you suggest that if the Scadrians could get their hands on Stormlight they could use that to fuel their allomancy, and that if they could breathe in the Stormlight they could use that to fuel their powers?

Probably not. Vasher somehow draws it in, but I thought that the Returned eat Investiture passively and naturally, like photosynthesis, for some time. But if you could get Stormlight into a Metalmind, you probably could power Allomancy with it. 

EDIT: I read what you said incorrectly, and you are right, that's exactly what I'm saying.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

This doesn't allow for more people to be Allomancers, it simply makes current ones more powerful

There is this WoB that says that 16 Mistings and 16 Ferrings of all kinds should be able to create medallions. And having a single Fullborn should make it easier because they can blank their Identity and Compound without additional medallions.

WoB:

Quote

Yata

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Or would Preservation light not require a bond to be accessed? 

If a Scadrian could draw it into the metalmind, they should be good to go because they already have an innate piece of Preservation in their souls. 

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

How powerful would a Returned Allomancer be? The amount of Investiture they hold supposedly dwarfs most other investiture wielders in the Cosmere...

Using a Divine Breath to power Allomancy is probably something that a Returned would like to avoid.

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Or actually, why are metals consumed when burned if they aren't providing investiture and something else is? Does this mean the amount of key used is important?

4 hours ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

Therefore, to use the Bands an individual would draw the investiture in and then use that to fuel the allomancy granted by the bands, with the nicrosilmind acting as an allomantic battery that the people can draw on to fuel their powers. 

I see two ways it could go. One, the Bands are designed to work only by fueling Allomancy and Feruchemy with stored Investiture. Like Allomancy in a bottle, where instead of drawing on the infinite power of Preservation in the Spiritual Realm, you draw on finite stores in a battery, but in larger portions. Two, the battery is separate from the part that allows you to use the powers, and if it ran dry, you could still use the abilities with normal strength.

Inspired by yet another full Mistborn series reread and my back-and-forth with @Phlipz1 in this topic.

One of the only problems I had with Mistborn Era 2 is how powers are getting weaker, and the Metalborn themselves are getting rarer. We know how to deal with the second one - make another infusion of Preservation's (or maybe even Harmony's) Investiture via Lerasium or otherwise. It's impossible to do at this time, but not difficult if you get the required materials. But with the power loss over time, combined with population growth, Scadrian society will never be able to maintain the strength and commonality of the Metallic Arts. 

And the solution to that is simple - power Allomancy not just with the Investiture you get by burning metal, but also with physical Investiture like the Mist or Stormlight. By this point, we've seen Vin do it twice - once at the end of the Final Empire when Vin killed the Lord Ruler, and yet again during Vin's Ascension to Preservation, during her battle with the Inquisitors at the Hero of Ages. Both times her Allomancy was much stronger than normal. 

There is another time where we might have seen it done - the Bands of Mourning. We saw Marisi and Wax use them with strength equal or exceeding that of the Lord Ruler, but Kelsier hadn't possessed such strength in Allomancy when he lived. There are several reasons for why that might be, from Kelsier becoming Rashek's equal in Allomancy by holding Preservation to Compounding the ability to use the Metallic Arts in such a way that tapping it made one stronger. But now that I read the Compounding version several times, it doesn't make that much sense. Brandon said that Nicrosil Ferichemy works like Copper Feruchemy - something discrete is stored, used, and returned. And it doesn't make sense that tapping the same memory, or the same ability, will make it stronger and/or more detailed. It would be like having two copies of the same file on a hard drive. So I propose that the Bands have a separate layer of nicrosil - filled with the Mist. That would also make this quote by Wax make more sense:

Quote

His resources were diminishing. Not merely the metals inside of him, but the reserves stored inside the Bands. Stores that changed his level of Investiture.

It doesn't make sense that nicrosil stores filled with the ability to use the Metallic arts would run out if they work like a Coppermind. Memories degrade when Feruchemists read the same memory repeatedly or when they don't put it back for long enough for the details to start fading. Wax and Marisi did nothing of the sort, but I suppose that you can say that stored Investiture works differently from Memories. However, if we assume that the ability to use Investiture is not being consumed, but the Mist...

It would also somewhat explain why Thaidakar Kelsier would like to get his hands on some Stormlight trade.

27 minutes ago, MGershone said:

(Unintentional hilarious Stormlight pun!) (Unless you meant to do that) (I can't tell)

I really haven't, lol.

26 minutes ago, Phlipz1 said:

can you not use it as fuel? i know the metal essentially acts as a filter for preservations power but does that really matter? all one is doing is adding a bit of preservations power by oneself, not anything raddical

Yes, you can. It's just that you're saying that all you have to do is tap the metalmind, and I'm saying that you have to use what you tapped, not that using it is difficult or anything like that. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Allomantic Iron and Feruchemical Pewter would be the most practical combination for me, IRL. 

21 hours ago, Tani said:

Though F-Cadmium would also be awesome...

Not awesome enough to keep a poisonous metal on your skin, though.

1 minute ago, Phlipz1 said:

and cause mist is preservations pure gaseous investure, the compounding or tapping of nicrosil while burning a metal would result in a more powerful effect, thus proving my hypothesis correct

The difference is that you'd have to use that Investiture that you compounded as fuel for Allomancy, not just hold it. So it's not like it's giving a passive bonus to your Allomantic strength, but the result is effectively the same. 

8 minutes ago, Phlipz1 said:

off topic, if a radiant could hold stormlight like a perfect gemstone they'd get heightenings according to you?

Yes. 

Quote

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

10 minutes ago, Phlipz1 said:

what does happen when someone taps nircosil while burning then? nothing?

Let's say we have a Misting who taps the ability to use the same power he has. He would get stronger by tapping a medallion that grants his power. If he tapped a Metalmind that had Mist stored in it, he could power his ability with that Mist and get a more powerful effect than he would by burning his metal. Like Vin did in the end of the Final Empire. 

From all the WoBs I read since getting into cosmere, the impression I got was that travel to and via the Cognitive realm works a lot like Nether in Minecraft. You get into the portal you come out on the other side. And once there, it's not like you are moving at FTL speed because space is bent or compressed - it's that areas without a firm Cognitive representation are either absent or smaller. So a meter in a Cognitive realm is still the same as a meter in a Physical, but the distances between places are shorter on average.

8 hours ago, Phlipz1 said:

Then what is the effect of having higher investure in one's body than normal? If not a power boost then what?

Heightenings are what you get if you can hold the Investiture in without it dissipating. 

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The soil wouldn't mean anything to it, it probably rips that much stone off of itself

The deepest ones can't see when they are fully in stone, and true spren can't go through solid objects. So can a Thunderclast even reach the stone?

16 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Fullborn are to Roshar as Thunderclasts are to Scadrial, imo. Rusting powerful and terrifying, but few enough that finding their weakness or brute-forcing their death essentially removes them from the board (a lot like a Queen in chess.)

Can a Thunderclast even get a body when the top layer of the ground is soil? 

6 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

The picture is the 9 levels of Hell, from Dante’s Inferno, portrayed by Botticelli.

I read this, and my idiot brain immediately went to "If there are nine levels of Hell and Odium's number is nine, why are there ten levels of Voidbinding?" and I don't think I'm ashamed enough. 

8 hours ago, Phlipz1 said:

That leads me to believe that investure matters in allomantic strength

Allomantic strength determines how much Investiture you get by burning a metal. The more powerful you are, the more Investiture you get. When an Allomancer burns a (regular) metal, they get Preservation's Investiture with metal acting as a key or a filter to shape that Investiture to a magical effect. So when you burn iron, Preservations Investiture in a gaseous form passes through a metaphorical square hole and results in blue lines and a pulling power. When you burn steel, it goes through a rectangular hole, and you get blue lines and a pushing power. And so on. When Marisi and Wax leak the Mist, it's because they get too much of it from burning, and their body can't hold it all. 

If I understood you correctly and you say that just holding Investiture makes your Allomancy more powerful. If that was the case, just having Breath would make Allomancers stronger, which is not the case.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Trell was originally an agent/avatar of Autonomy but has since been corrupted to Odium.

Now that would be a plot twist and a half, wouldn't it? I love it. Just Autonomy still works better for me because of bloody Tan's speech - the whole "We're all just puppets, you see?" sounds very autonomous. 

31 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That seems like something that would make Autonomy jump into the war, not to mention impossible to do while shacked to Braize.

If Odium frees himself in the battle of champions, the timeline might work out, depending on how old the Set is and when the thing that Harmony represented as a red mist appeared.

EDIT:

A couple of counterpoints. 

1. Godmetals take time to form, so for trellium to be an alloy of Autonomy and Odium formed naturally, a lot of time had to have passed somewhere with a corrupted avatar in charge. Manually corrupted atium or lerasium still seems like a better option.
2. If gold is also Automony's color, then red would just be corrupted Investiture.
3. Taravangian becoming a better Shard than Harmony in a decade would be strange. Yes, even simple actions can be difficult for Harmony, and yes, Koravellium as a teacher might speed things up, but I still don't like it.

It's a bit difficult to answer that because we don't really know the full capabilities of F-nicrosil. The only thing that we saw it store in the books is the ability to use an Allomantic or a Feruchemical power. If you tap those - you will get stronger. But if you tapped other Investiture, like the Mist or Stormlight, you'll just hold them until it dissipates. 

Allomantic strength doesn't depend on your level of Investiture. Allomancers aren't Invested that much when not burning meals. 

I believe it a no on this one. A-pewter's strength is based on how strong of an Allomancer you are. First, Vin and Ham's sparring match in the Well of Ascension. Ham is much stronger physically than Vin, but her ability with pewter is at least on the same level, possibly higher. So if you had a pewter spike and A-pewter, you would be stronger than someone with just A-pewter, but it doesn't affect the Allomantic strength. 

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 I suppose it's possible, but I doubt it.

Just to show what I mean.

Row Interlude 9

Quote

“I will not serve you,” Szeth said. “I will not be manipulated by you again. My stone … was always only a stone.… My father said…”
“Your father is dead, Szeth,” Taravangian said. “Listen to me. Listen.” He read from the notebook. “‘Fortunately, I believe his ability to see us here is limited. Therefore, we may talk freely. I doubt you can harm Odium directly unless you are in one of his visions. You must get into one of those visions. Can you do this?’”

RoW Chapter 111

Quote

“Answer me!” Szeth screamed. “Did you kill the man who held that Blade before you?”
“Of course not, foolish man,” Ishar said, summoning his Blade. “The Shin serve the Heralds. They held my sword for me. They returned it when I revealed myself.”

Quote

Dalinar glanced at Szeth, who was alight with Stormlight—though it was being drawn at a ferocious rate into his weapon. “My people,” Szeth shouted, “were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!”
“Your father was barely a man when I found him,” Ishar said. “The Shin had accepted the Unmade. Tried to make gods of them. I saved them. And your father did give me this Blade. He thanked me for letting him die.”

Then after the one you quoted.

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“No,” Szeth said. “No. I must go alone, but not yet. I must prepare. I have … something important to do. He knew. He should not have known.…”

RoW Chapter 113

Quote

Szeth stood quietly, his illusion gone, his bald head—freshly shaved—reflecting the light of the spheres that had spilled from the basket.
“How did you know?” the Shin finally asked. “And how long have you known?”
“Kn-known?” Taravangian forced out, crawling to the side through the fearspren.
“My father,” Szeth said.
Taravangian blinked. He could barely understand the words, he was so stupid. Emotions fought inside him. Terror. Relief that it would soon be over.
“How did you know my father was dead?” Szeth demanded, striding into the room. “How did you know that Ishar reclaimed his sword? How?”

I also don't think that Szeth would call Herald a fool, even after a crazy fight. He is too respectful of them.

That doesn't detract from your theory at all, but still.