ScadrianTank

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Moral no, but honourable?

If we treat them separately, might as well replace honor with keeping promises.  Otherwise, the Highspren would be "Honorspren" and the real Honorspren would be the spren of morality.

Vasher, Kaladin, and Szeth. 

Szeth actions are the best counter to Dalinar's view that breaking Oaths is always immoral. So out of these two, I'd choose Kaladin. 

1 hour ago, deepspace21 said:

The Boy is also Iriali. 

I stand corrected.

7 hours ago, deepspace21 said:

I think Ym specifically says the Iriali are on the long trail. I don't believe there are any other followers of the Iri philosophy that contradicts this.

And Ym specifically tried to teach the boy this religion. If Iri were the only splinters of the One in the cosmere, surely the Shard of Curiosity wouldn't care what other people experienced - since they can't go back to him.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

WoB is that it's partially based on the Shattering, but other more recent events were more influential.

I can interpret it as Adonalsium also wanted to experience death, or being closer to his creations via the vessels, so they allowed themselves to die. This read would be weird but not outside of the realm of possibility. 

That's a cool theory but may just as well apply to Adonalsium, especially since the followers of the One seem to apply their philosophy/religion to non-Irialy people

Didn't care much for Jasnah in the WoK. I read her as Marry Poppins kind of character who knew everything and could do anything while at the same time being a pretty princess. 

Lessie in Shadows of Self got me real good. The reveal, her second death, and how Wax reacted to it made me really sad. Wax's conversation with Sazed made that whole situation a lot better for me.

Kaladin's emotional stuff in RoW was pretty heavy but I somehow managed to go through that book without tears. Got really close a couple of time though.

Quote

Mojonero

If someone without Identity Awakened an object, would anyone be able to recall the Breath? Would they need to have any breath to recall it, or could it be done by anyone at all?

Brandon Sanderson

If you could blank Identity + Awaken, yes, anyone could get it back.

(Requires intent)

RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

The way I see it, there are two relevant sources of Identity: Breath and Awakener. If an Awakener blanks their Identity and puts them into something without wanting to make it retrievable by anyone, the Breaths themselves will still be keyed to their regular Identity. If they intend for anyone else to take them, the Breaths will instead key to their Blank identity, and anyone who finds them would be able to take them.

1 hour ago, Knight of Iron said:

And, hypothetically, if some random dude called—I don't know, Kelsier—ran Sazed the Awakener through with a sword, with no Identity-shenanigans, but he had invested the clock... would the Breaths be trapped in the clock, unable to be used, or would they dissipate?

They shouldn't dissipate if the clock is still in one piece, like Breaths in Vivenna's shawl were. And if it breaks:

Quote

little_wilson

Mi'chelle is wanting to know for a fanfic she's wanting to write if when you cut/break an object that has been Awakened if the object then "dies", or if the pieces will try to carry out the command. Also, either way, can the breaths be recovered from it?

Brandon Sanderson

The object does not die, and will try to continue its purpose. The level of damage will determine just how well it can continue. The Breaths are recoverable. (Though there could be some loss of Breaths, depending on how the item is destroyed.) There's a scene near the end where Vasher Awakens some clothing, then it gets cut down and he recovers the Breath.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

1 hour ago, Knight of Iron said:

Her Breaths, which were keyed to her, would try and be keyed to Sazed. But Sazed has no Identity, so I think that they'd become unkeyed and just dissipate. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Why would they dissipate? A door without a lock is still a door.

On 06.07.2021 at 7:44 PM, Pandora's shard said:

Tell me guys, what do you think about it?? Can you call shards and Adonalsium god, when there is something unknowable and, that's where the souls go? 

Personally, I call Adonalsium god because the Beyond doesn't affect my view on life in the cosmere any more than any of the interpretations of the afterlife affect my life IRL. If capital G God is out there somewhere - good for them, I'll just mind my own business here. It doesn't lower Adonalsium as much in my eyes compared to someone like Dalinar. As far as I know, they might've created all of existence - which is unconfirmed and actively debated by some - and a thing that can do that has enough authority over the universe to address my prayers to it. In terms of theological-oriented arguments for this point, I can argue that if there is only one absolutely powerful being in all of existence and if its power can't be replicated - then we might as well call it God. Don't know if it applies to Adonalsim - since they're dead - by it's still worth considering. 

P.S. The whole concept of creators having authority over the creations has a whole lot of other implications that I find fascinating, particularly about AI and artificial human-designed life.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So i posted the same time you commented, but I feel a point I made in the above post fields this. Personal perspective and interpretation affects how the oaths are carried out. There is nothing inherently religious connected to Vorinism that I believe applies to windrunner's oaths. The callings mirror some of the ideals, but taken out of context. For instance lightweavers tend to be artistically inclined, but you will not advance in your oaths simply by following the art calling (forgot what it was called, beauty? creativity?). The main creed of Vorinism is like vikings and vahallah. Fight, and kill in the name of your god. Show yourself to be a great warrior, and you get to fight next to your deity in the afterlife. Don't really see how that helps advance the oaths of those orders. Maybe stonewards? Because they don't give up?

The way I'm thinking about it is that some of the main principles of Vorinism facilitate a society and culture where people are more likely to swear the first Ideal. It doesn't guarantee or directly ease a person's progression through Ideals and it doesn't magically increase the number of people who would attract a spren and be eligible for an Order. But a society whose dominant religion is about choosing what you're good at and pursuing that to your personal limit will result in more Radiants than something like the new Terris religion or Survivorism. 

On 24.08.2021 at 6:38 PM, Pathfinder said:

For example, if I am born a mistborn, then I have to follow the survivorists. When that is not in fact required. Or if I am born a feruchemist, I have to be a Pathian. Jasnah is an elsecaller, yet she is an atheist. 

I don't know if it directly applies to the discussion of freedoms on a national level, but Roshar specifically would benefit from a strong presence of Honor/Cultivation oriented philosophies and religions simply because they increase the pool of potential Radiants. On a larger scale, the dominance or at least a stable presence of Vorinism would most likely encourage the presence of Windrunners, Skybreakers, and maybe Stonewards. 

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Do you think that Shards have some connection to the Beyond that allows them to give a human a Beyond soul?

Assuming that God is a real presence in the cosmere, distinct from Adonalsium, we should also assume that God operates separately from Adonalsium and the Shards. Then it's up to him( or them?) to give away souls to entities that need one. 

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

a capital G God did not make most of the humans in the Cosmere, Shards did.

Practically speaking, it seems easier to assume that if God Beyond is God - then Adonalsium is either his spren or a spren of the cosmere Big Bang. Then, they would act with the same Intent as God while still being God's lesser. This way, God Beyond remains true a religious God while staying within all the known cosmere rules.

Personally, I dislike and disagree with the idea that any program good enough running on fast enough hardware is functionally indistinguishable from a person. Humans are fundamentally irrational due to the biology and chemistry involved, while AIs are fundamentally rational because the mathematics that make up the software are. It's one of my gripes with the Skyward series. But spren are not like that, in fact, where their divine attributes are concerned, they are even more "human" than actual humans are.

A good place to start would be to compare Cryptics to a standard fictional AI. Cryptics are a personification of mathematics and fields associated. They perceive the world through that lens, and it affects the way they understand things. Pattern repeatedly shows that he is more comfortable with things and concepts that are fully material and are not abstract - locks, roads, maps, etc. He struggles with products of humanity and society that don't follow consistent patterns and logic - humor, social norms, etiquette, and so on. While this is my personal read, which is greatly affected by the fact that I had a course on the topic in uni, it seems that he excels in things that can be clearly described with either a straightforward set of equations or a good mathematical model. Social norms and humor he has to learn by collecting data and using it to react accordingly, but never fully understanding the meaning behind them.  So far - very similar to something like a machine from the Matrix. Where they differ is in the fact that they have emotions, feelings, and fears. And those make bring them a lot closer to us because emotions and feelings are fundamentally irrational, or they would be to any big computer regardless of how complicated and detailed its software is.

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They can: Break bond, not swear new oaths, or separate from their spren(until 5th ideal) nothing stops them

I feel like I'm saying that they have bad working conditions and you're saying that they can just quit. I'm not saying that Radiants can't break their Oaths if they feel like they have to. I am saying that Radiants, by the nature of the bond and restriction of their Oaths, don't have the same freedom as a regular person. And since they have to follow those Oaths all the time, not just when working, they get warped by those restrictions. In Dalinar's conversation with Taravangian in RoW, he says that a person can't be moral and break a promise. While this is his personal philosophy - that I don't have anything against - it's a choice he can't make as a Radiant

30 minutes ago, Frustration said:

What's funny about that? I find it admirable.

Because, unlike humans, spren of Honor and Cultivation are practically incapable of going against their nature.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

COULD cost them, and that is an external circustance completly and uterly separate from the bond itself

Considering that Radiants were created to fight the Desolations, I don't see it as that separate. 

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You still have the freedom to choose, you just have to live with the consequences

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They still have that freedom, always have.

Like a person retains their freedom to choose when being rioted or soothed. 

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't understand what you are saying

That I find it funny that people who died because of those inflexible moral codes would probably do it again if they had to - because they are literally a personification of the virtues that cost them their lives. 

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Refusal costs them nothing but the powers

And refusing those powers would cost them their lives. For example, Kaladin would die in Sadeas' camp as a Bridgeman.

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

I feel like 'Honor' biased, letting some people like Kaladin get revenge when it suited Honor, but not let Moash get his and act like he did something wrong wanting it but the others it was fine because it was suited to Honor's goals(beating Odium).

Makes me wonder how Moash would change as a character if he bonded an Honrspren in WOK, even if he made the same choices.

10 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

It seems like the main thrust of your argument is that "people shouldn't have morality thrust on them"

It's also the restriction on personal freedom to choose. 

10 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

First, now that the radiants are well known again, people do know what they're signing up for.

First of all, "now that the radiants are well known again". None of our main characters knew, Shallan in particular, but I guess they're all special cases, and it's not fair to use them as examples. Second, that's kind of true, but not really. It might be the case for those who joined through one of the "Urithiru branches" if they openly share the Oaths you'll have to swear. But if some Honor spren decided to bond a human after Adolin's trial, found their candidate from a village in the middle of nowhere - they wouldn't be as informed.

10 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

The spren certainly know, are able to communicate the options to the potential Radiant and also (usually) have choice in the matter.

The spren are able - they just don't. Not one of the spren we've seen in the books so far explained to the budding Radiant what the bond entails and requires.

10 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

Fifth, it just isn't a big deal to me to have a moral code being a part of the cost in a transaction like this. It's true for every relationship, sexual, contractual, employer/employee, friendship and etc, that there's a code of conduct included in the relationship. 

It would be a better argument if our Radiants entered that relationship consciously, by Intent, and in a situation where refusal wouldn't mean almost certain death. But honestly, the Oaths don't bother me as much as Honor allowing this to happen at all. The bond encourages you to grow, but only in a certain way, like one of those cube watermelons. Makes me want to join team Odium even more. 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't think an inflexible moral code is neccesarily a bad thing

I find it funny that none of the deadeyes who died in the Recreance would disagree with that statement. 

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

So inconsistency is better? Breaking codes is better than not doing so? I'm afraid I don't understand this line.

Having the freedom to chose to break a promise is better than not having it. 

I've been stuck with these thoughts for a few weeks now but had no idea how to put them properly into words, so I'll just throw it out there.

The main concern here is that a person with a crack in a soul being hitched to a literal personification of a (portion of) platonic quality/concept isn't really moral. While the whole idea of a Journey and self-improvement is entirely positive in a vacuum, Honor and Ishar created ten groups of people, who as a consequence of that bond will have to adopt a more extreme view of the world in all matters related to their Order, Oaths, and Spern. Who would have thought that they wouldn't get along with each other very well?

What's even better is that the concept a spren represents isn't just a platonic absolute - it's filtered by societies' global view of that concept. So the interpretation of a Radiant Journey as a person getting closer to God by exhibiting divine virtues gets thrown out of the window because Radiant has to follow a simplified mortal interpretation of said virtue.

The bond straight up forbids certain actions and declares them as unacceptable under any circumstance. Have to lie? Nope, can't do that - it's not honorable™. Break a promise? No, can't do that either. (Yes, I remember what Shallan said in part one of RoW, but all this tells us is that some Orders are better than others. That's assuming other Orders don't have their own caveats.) Can we truly say that forbidding a person to ever make a certain kind of choice based on anything is right? 

That whole train of thought sort of recontextualized a line from Frost's letter in WoR. 

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

 I suppose that BIG HONOR™ and BIG GROWTH™ aren't that much better than BIG HATE™.

On 01.08.2021 at 9:39 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

That really depends on the limits of soulcasting, though I don't think a spike would care if the mateial was alive (sidenote, can rock soulcast into flesh be Awakened?) Also, sphere of meatification, yuck.

On 01.08.2021 at 5:36 PM, mathiau said:

Use the same kind of Soulcasting Fabrial Melishi used for the shield to have the material around the spike believe it's alive

Invested embalming by soulcasting air to flesh with actual corpses as models. I wish I hadn't thought of that.

On 03.08.2021 at 7:25 PM, mathiau said:

Matter is but a type of energy

Not a physics person, but isn't energy more of a property of a thing than an actual thing?

On 13.07.2021 at 10:16 PM, Waffles said:

Does anti-investiture have anti-intent?

If you want to call opposite intent - anti-intent, then sure.

On 13.07.2021 at 10:16 PM, Waffles said:

Basically does antistormlight break oaths?

Does love generate antivoidlight?

basically does anti-investiture carry an anti-intent?

I don't think it works that way. A Shard is a piece of a being or force that created everything, so far as people in the cosmere know. Basically, a lower case g-d with a case for capital g, depending on your religious and spiritual views. So Shards Intent encompasses a lot more than what is traditionally associated with them. Honor, for example, also represents the natural laws of the cosmere, so if his anti-Investiture just inverted all the Shard represented - reality itself would unravel around it. 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Applied physics, ontomancy

Calligraphy, lettromancy, rave lights

Bone spurs, osteomancy

Applied murder, piercing world championship

 

¤_¤

So messed up that it might as well be encrypted with RSA. I approve.

On 29.07.2021 at 2:21 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, crazy mad dash by all armies to claim as much territory as possible in the 10 days because they get to keep whatever they hold as of the contest of champions no matter who wins the contest.

Makes me wonder about Taravodium going forward. The Singers would like to have their land back, but I don't think Mr.T would empathize with the people he considered the enemy just yesterday. He won't feel obligated to the Singers at large or even the Fused, but he would still consider himself the savior of humanity. While any result Dalinar thought of while setting up the terms of the contest would be beneficial to Roshar as a whole, Taravangian's selfishness might result in his brilliant plan to go free to cause another catastrophe on Roshar. 

On 16.07.2021 at 9:05 PM, Oltux72 said:

No refrigeration

Shadow of Self clearly states that they get their ice from the mountains. On Earth refrigeration was invented around 1850 and became economical around 1875

Wasn't ice merchanting a thing until the early 1900s? I was under the impression that early refrigerators still used ice for cooling. And it's not like everyone can afford electricity - a lot of people would still use old tech because it's cheaper and familiar.

Why you shouldn't try to Soulcast missiles.

16 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

It seems from these passages that Odium maybe knew about the existence of anti-Light, but that he either did not know how to produce it himself, or was simply unable to produce it himself. So he needed to lead one of his Fused toward figuring it out.

I agree with what you said here, but those quotes don't really confirm it. The fused got the first ideas for anti-Light from Shards telling about antimatter.

From RoW Chapter 65:

Quote

“There are theories,” Raboniel said. “Matter has its opposite: negative axi that destroy positive axi when combined. This is known, and confirmed by the Shards Odium and Honor. So some have thought … is there a negative to light? An anti-light? I had discarded this idea. After all, I assumed that if there was an opposite to Stormlight, it would be Voidlight.”