ConfusedCow

Cancer?

Kezim and his brothers Ishil and Lamar had been house guards in Vedenar. They stood tall with bright shields bearing the glyphs of Highprince Rajen. That had been 15 years ago. Before the border conflicts with Alethkar. Before Kezim had taken the arrow to his lung, before Ishil had been left half blind from the blow to his head, before Lamar's eyes had burned, before the Blackthorn. Kezim and Ishil had spent what spheres they had saved on the passage to Kharbranth. The surgeons had been true to their word. They had pulled the arrow head from Kezim's chest. They nursed him through the first months of recovery. They gave Ishil herbs to ease the terrible headaches that still plagued him. Then they were discharged, alone, penniless, in foreign land. The ships wouldn't take them. Kezim was prone to coughing fits after a days labor and captains distrusted Ishil's eye. They found work along the docks, guard duty, moving cargo. They made just enough to afford meals and a room in the back of a tavern to share. Kezim could never shake the nightmares. He lay on the ground, blood in his throat, watching the arrows fall around him. There in the distance the demon, gigantic, grey, and always coming closer. The drinking began as a way to let him sleep. Ishil just stopped breathing one night. The ardents were kind. They cleaned him. They spoke about how he was going to fight in the Tranquiline halls. Kezim hoped he could rest first. After that the drinking got worse. By the time Sekir started asking him to look out for valuable cargo being brought in, Kezim spent most days sleeping under the piers a bottle in his hand. He was laying under the pier when he saw her arrive. Kholin, Jasnah Kholin. Almighty she was beautiful. The king himself seemed awed by her. "Those earing,alone could buy a ship." Sekir muttured, clapping Kezim on the back. "Can you meet me for drinks at the tavern tonight. There's someone I'd like you to meet. A captain, a proper soldier, he spoke of work ..."

You're over my head with the linguistics, though I appreciate the depth of your analysis. Here's one thought, Coppermind claims Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor means "I saw a beautiful wet stone that no one is paying attention to, but it was really cool because of the water pattern on it". Let's rewrite the poem as 'a water pattern, unnoticed on a beautiful rock'. Numuhuku might mean water pattern. 'Ula'makai means captain. So I think makai or makia means warrior and makiaki'aia means warrior hiding or warrior unnoticed. Lunamor of course means beautiful rock. Hawiian and Unkalaki cultures have a lot of animism and spirituality, so 'beauty' and 'pattern' probably mean something like blessed and sacred. So my guess is that Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor means both 'a water pattern unnoticed on a beautiful rock' and 'a water blessed warrior hiding a sacred stone'.

Could the radiants build/have built a base on a moon? It's not implausible, particularly if the radiants have a means of transporting a large amount of stormlight. It's a long way, but much shorter than the distance to another planet that the Shanay-im tried. Once there, Stonewards could carve out an underground base quickly. Elsecallers could provide air and supplies. Combined Stonewards and Elsecallers could create interlocking caverns with heavy glass shielding above them. Edgedancers could make a forest bloom in those caverns. With time and effort a self-sustaining eco-system capable of producing food and air could even be created. We know the humans have experience moving between worlds, terraforming, and grand projects. The humans built Urithiru and the floating glass cities on Ashyn. I also think they had a hand in terraforming Shinovar. There could be significant advantages to a moon base, particularly if it could be kept secret. A moon base could be a refuge from both the wars and storms of Roshar. It could also be an excellent place to safe guard precious treasures or knowledge. If you believe as I do that BAM is the corrupted spren of the moon Mishim, then the radiants could have gone to the moon Mishim to capture her. Perhaps she still resides on the moon captured in a gemstone.

If nightblood is so invested how did get to Roshar. I thought heavily invested things were stuck were they came from. Did Vasher already solve Mraize's dilemma.

I think BAM is the spren of the moon. Or a moon, Michim. Like our moon she represents change and her natural function (pre-odium) was to facilitate the transformation of singers and other organisms with gem hearts.

@ookla the confused, You can't be almost certain killing them saved lives? Maybe you kill them and there's a war to control their turf or more vicious criminals come to replace them. Maybe the guard captain they worked with retaliates. Maybe you spare their lives and they tell you how someone has been snatching people off the streets. Maybe mercy helps you get ahead of Taravangian and stop the Veden civil war. Even if you absolutely knew killing someone would save other peoples' lives, that's not sufficient justification to kill them. See trolley problem, baby hitler, deontology vs utilitarianism. Also Jasnah says this wasn't about teaching Shallan a lesson and I believe her.

No, but thinking "I hope someone jumps me so I can shoot them is pretty close"

So Frustrated what is the rule here? It's ethical to kill anyone you feel threatened by? You are free to go around provoking others as much as you want and if they react aggressively gun them down? Honestly, I'm curious. What are the guiding principles we should use to govern our use of deadly force?

@Ookla the frustrated, Frustrated you and I have had this argument before at some length no? I got confused by the name change. I wonder why Jasnah's 'innocence' is so important to you. I think from a literary perspective Jasnah's let's go with 'ruthless practicality' is intended as a character flaw. Consider her dealings with assassins and desire to kill the Heralds. Brandon is at some length to point out his criticisms of Jasnah. Even offering a pretty cogent condemnation from Shallan. I don't have my book on me but I think Shallan says "... seeking out men to kill is an immoral act, Jasnah". Which rings pretty true. Jasnah is meant to provide a foil and contrast to some of the more overly moralistic characters like Kaladin and Dalinar. The reader is meant to see Jasnah as too blood thirsty, too confident, too willing to go to extremes and worry about where that will lead.

To briefly raise a more important question than the ethics of murder. Why is everyone named Ookla?

@Ookla, you agree she wasn't protecting herself from the men running away? I extend that to the first man she killed, because she was far more powerful.

@Ookla the Frustrated She's a high level radiant with stormlight. Those men could have stabbed her until they fell to the ground exhausted and she would be fine. Jasnah wanted to kill someone she saw as a predator against women, but yes if she hadn't been attacked that night I think she would have been disappointed and gone out looking again. Afterall, why is she so familiar with the street crime in the city in the first place?

Why did Jasnah kill? To help Taravangian? Nonsense, he's a king he can help himself. To protect herself? Nope. To protect others? Doubtful, she hasn't removed the corrupt policing problem. That's the real threat to pedestrians. I'm sure there are more poor, dangerous greedy men. So why? I think the real reason, despite her justifications, is the abuse she suffered as a child. Consider her emotional sequence, relaxed bathing, confident, mischevious (opens one eye and smiles), scandalously free (hair), eager (quick walking), didactic (enjoying her lecture), hard and grim, kills first two, calm, kills second two, eerily calm, expressionless, and finally (when questioned in the planquin) an edge in her voice that Shallan had never heard before and made her question what had been done to her. No matter what she says, she killed to feel powerful, free, at peace, and perhaps as a symbolic revenge. Jasnah is human in her anger and pain, even her justifications, but her actions are troubling and harmful. It worries me that so many don't see that. Ethics, people, can't be reduced to simple rules like who threatened who first.

What bothers people about Lirin is not his actions or philosophy. Rather we are bothered by the way in which he projects his morals. Who is Lirin to condemn our fight, to judge us? Well in the book he's our father. What father does not get preachy and judgemental occasionally? Mothers give so much, flesh, warmth, food, songs. Fathers give what, pale words, cold coins? Forgive our attempts to make our feeble offerings seem grandiose, we mean well.

It doesn't matter if Honor can't or won't grant futuresight, why does he fear it so much? Why ban it so rigourously? I bet the ardentia knows, what secret Honor's hiding. I bet its behind the hierocracy and the ardentia's more recent machinations.

Hello again frustration. Here are some of the horrible things powered by Odium's magic. Insane spirits possessing the bodies of the living, giant stone monsters, the unmade, red-eyed lightning throwing storm summoners, world ending apocolypses. Why is the one thing that got remembered, the deepest fear, fortune telling?

We know that the heart of voidbinding is seeing the future. We also know that trying to predict the future is taboo in Vorin society. Indeed, the Vorin church is highly opposed to it. Why? Why is trying to see the future such a terrible thing? Why doesn't Honor give any of his radiants or spren that power? Why does Odium seem to love giving little glimpses of the future? Maybe this is just coincidence, the natural expressions of Honor and Odiums' power. Or.......... Honor doesn't want people to see the future, because there is some terrible secret in visions of the future. Perhaps a secret that explains the recreance or how Honor died. For example, what if Honor was preparing Roshar to go to war with the other shardworlds? Or what if the destruction of Roshar is inevitable no matter what the radiants do and they're just a delaying tactic, a sacrifice? What if Honor knows that this struggle is a lost cause? What if voidbinding, seeing the future, is a terrible power because it corrupts people, turns them to Odium, because he has a point?

Let me try this theory out. Hoid is Adonalsium's wit. Adonalsium's cleverness and consciousness, sent out to experience the mortal world. He's not trying to engineer the rebirth of Adonalsium. Rather he's trying to help mortals grow (and collect stories). To help mortals flourish without the intervening hand of an all powerful deity.

Wit wishes we would, whatever, weirdest exercise ever. Everyone, everywhere, is interwrought in immediate imperilments. Relaxed romance, really? A Riddle? Redeyed demons demand desperate divine deeds. That's it I think, tryin anyway, thanks.

Long as the queen's quep quickly quips.

Pretty sure the end is undisputed god like power and the means are killing anyone who disagrees. Somehow that's always where the end justifies the means gets you. After which, I'm sure Mr. T will host an elegant cosmere wide garden party.

How do you think the Human Lives > Spren Lives argument would go down with the Stormfather? The Nahel bond though does seem unethical to me, or at least ethically problematic. It's a fundamentally unequal and terribly intimate relationship. The radiant holds the spren's life in their hands and makes the choices about where to go, what to do etc... The spren has to stay with their radiant, by their side, or die. The radiant literally turns their partner into a tool and then uses them to kill things. Enslaving another being, even kindly, even for a good cause, even with their consent, is not good. There are consequences to your understanding of the world and the value of life. Journey before pancakes, etc... I think the ancient Radiants understood this and took steps to mitigate the problem but were unable to fundamentally resolve it.

The internet says almost all people with DID have a history of trauma in early childhood. That trauma can be sexual, neglect, or violent abuse. The incident with her mother happened at age 11. From what I've read online that's too late to cause DID by itself. By age 10 a clear sense of self should already be present. Neglect doesn't seem likely, so I think we can assume there's significant abuse in her childhood that hasn't yet been mentioned. I'm not a pscyhologist and certainly can't tell anyone how their trauma effects them. Just talking about a book.

Alright here's my ending pitch with the oaths, guaranteed hundred percent accurate. Shallan is kidnapped. Adolin goes to save her but Kaladin is given a different mission. Kaladin's oath "I will protect the ones I love!". He saves Shallan. Shallan's final truth, "I love Kaladin." Adolin glares, "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry". Back at the tower, Dalinar's oath, "I will sacrifice that which I love most." Dalinar tells Szeth to kill Adolin. Szeth's final oath, "I will tell others when that is not my problem." Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin fight Adolin and lose. Renarin steps up, "I will be the man I have always wanted to be, you brother." Todium laughs, "yes kill him, embrace the darkside. Roshar will be ours and then the galaxy." As Szeth leaves, Jasnah oneshots him and takes Nightblood, "that's for my dad, I'm the best forever". Kills Todium.