Child of Hodor

Reading Oathbringer I found myself really resenting Hoid for the first time. He's super smart, super immortal, super wise, super quipy, super mysterious (vague) and isn't he quirky?! He acts like he doesn't care but "oh his real problem is he cares too much!". I think him telling yet another motivational story to a depressed main character to inspire them put me over the edge with him. He needs to storm off for a bit, not looking forward to him being the main character of the final cosmere novels at this point. I really didn't like Kelsier in the original trilogy. I appreciated him as a very flawed person who tried to do good later in life, but I didn't like spending time with him. I liked his arc during Secret History, but him being reincarnated annoys me because I have been feeling there were too many resurrections or fake deaths in Stormlight. Sometimes I get defensive (in my own mind ) about it and think "Brandon killed off almost everyone in Mistborn era 1" but this undoes one of the major deaths in that. Spook's speech pattern annoyed me to no end in the early books. He mostly drops it in the third one, so I didn't mind him in that one. Brandon writes a lot of characters who can't utter a line of dialogue without it containing at least one bad joke, pun or quip: Hoid, Shallan, Lopen, Lightsong, Wayne. A character with a lame sense of humor can be fun, but it would be nice if a character actually told good jokes. One of my favorite scenes is in WoK where Jasnah goes off on Shallan for saying the first half-clever thing that comes to mind "Errorgance", ugh.

I wanted to find a slightly different way of looking at the Shards and how they are divided up. I tried to sort the 10 shards we know of https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shard & the shard Brandon hinted at http://www.17thshard.com/forum/?section=findpost&pid=46099 into categories based on the focus of their intent. By focus I mean Odium is a feeling towards others while Autonomy is not a feeling, but a way of interacting with others, being free of the control of others. I then thought about those categories and what was missing from them or what else could be in them to try and figure out what the remaining shards could be. I highlighted in yellow the ideas I think are missing from each category. I kind of left Endowment hanging out there close to Working with Others Category, but it may not fit in there. These are just a framework for brainstorming feel free to disagree or suggest your own. Focus of Intent Shard Name Definition, Synonyms & Related Ideas Working with Others Dominion Control, Mastery, Command, Authority Autonomy Self-directing, Freedom, Self-government Honor To fulfill an agreement, Keen sense of ethical conduct, Integrity, Respect Collaboration / Cooperation / Interact as equals Deception / Guile / Tickery (Hide + Survive shard might cover these ideas) Endowment Give, bequeath or provide an asset, quality or ability. Invest, Equip, Bless, Gift Lifecycle of Existence Preservation Maintain, Keep as is, prevent change or decay, Middle of Lifecycle Cultivation Grow, Develop, Improve, Encourage, Middle of Lifecycle Ruin Entropy, Decay, Rot, Destroy, Death, Ending of Lifecycle Beginning of Lifecycle/Creation/Ingenuity/Novelty/Creativity Feelings Towards Others Devotion Love, Loyalty, Dedication to a person or cause, Religious Worship Odium Hatred, or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions, revulsion Guilt Feeling of blame or responsibility for the consequence of one's actions. Sorrow Envy Jealous of what others have, quasi-opposite of endowment. Covet. Hunger. Desire. Attributes of the Self Ambition Desire to achieve, aspiration, hope, purpose, drive Hide + Survive Shard (Wisdom, Practicality, Deception, Fear) Curiosity Desire for knowledge, intelligence, discovery, exploration

I think the first 5 books will end with the current invasion and everstorm being repelled. Perhaps via the Champion challenge since Odium agreed to it. I think the back 5 will be about getting a new holder for Odium and maybe combining it with something else to stabilize it. Dalinar seems on the path to Shardhood, but a fun surprise would be if Rayse died and Kaladin became the holder of Odium. I think he would be a good vessel for Odium, in the short term anyways. He is already becoming very practiced at getting his own overwhelming hatred under control and binding it to a code. I would imagine Syl would be part of the whole as well since she is bonded with Kaladin's soul. A tiny bit of Honor would be merged in there. Jasnah ascending would be very Brandon. The atheist becomes a god. She is kind of like Sazed in that she studied world religions and history very closely, she just doesn't believe in them.

I agree. For there to be contractual obligations there must be a third-party IP he is working with. Tor doesn't swear him to secrecy on his projects in worlds he came up with.

I like this theory. I do want to point out that the man with arms outstretched under a blue disc sounds a lot like this depiction of Ishar from the Oathbringer endpages. He's not hovering, but he is above others and the other details fit. He is the patron of the bondsmiths and the Herald who was directly involved with the forming/organizing of the Radiant orders. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar He would have a special place among the radiants and as the Bondsmith Herald it makes sense to show him alongside the two bondsmith spren. Even if that is Ishar, that doesn't mean your theory is incorrect. The third Sibling could be connected to the moon Nomon. Why is the patron of the bondsmiths depicted with this particular moon? Seems like a hint and along with the story Wit's story points towards this moon being important.

I think the influence Rayse has as the Vessel of Odium is the desire to be the most powerful being in the universe. This doesn't seem to be an inherent trait of Odium or Hatred. The way Odium has sought out powerful beings to destroy because he thought it was a threat is more coming from Rayse than the Shard intent. If another Vessel had held Odium, they may have just set up shop on a planet and been content to encourage constant war and strife while absorbing people's emotions. This version of Odium may not have been obsessed with killing all it's former colleagues.

The death rattles we think we've seen come to pass, like "True Glory" are always a little off in the details. Broken One might be a weird misinterpretation of what is really meant. Tangent about Death Rattles: I wonder if they are kept vague in the details because they some are going to repeat / will be applicable to more than one event over the course of the series? Like this one that seems to be applicable to Dalinar seeing Kolinar destroyed in a vision: A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.— Collected on Tanatesev 1171, 30 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a cobbler of some renown.[10] No one was crying when Dalinar saw Kolinar destroyed in the vision and there wasn't any water. I'm not saying this Death Rattle doesn't refer to Dalinar, but that there may be another event in the series that will fit it as well or better.

I suspect Amaram switched sides when he got caught out in the Everstorm traveling between the war camps and the Oathgate to Uirithiru. It is mentioned early in Oathbringer that he was caught out in the Everstorm, was injured from it and spent a week or so recovering in his quarters once he got to the city. I think Ialai Sadeas mentions this in the meeting with Adolin and Shallan.

Style-wise I found it a poor choice to have all the characters in the first chunk of the book wear all white uniforms while they are in a desert where the sand is all white. I know it is practical to wear white in the desert, but it doesn't look great visually. It also made it hard to figure out who was who as we are being introduced to the characters in this first part. The visuals in other locations were better and there are neat details like the face in the clouds looking down. I'm interested to learn more about this setting, but this didn't grab hold of me.

I saw this question in the comments on the WoR reread https://www.tor.com/2014/07/24/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-6/ "1. Braid_Tug Okay, with Syl’s name discussion last week I have to ask this. Why does she get to remember her name in WoK, but Pattern is given a name? When he becomes more aware, will he remember a different name? Or will he just accept Pattern as his new name and identity? Was Syl originally named by one of her past KR’s? or is her name part of identity as an honor spren?" This is something I had not thought about before. Pattern is the only bonded spren whose name we see picked by the Radiant. Maybe other bonded spren just go with the name their Radiant gives them, but Pattern is the only one we have seen do this. My theory is Pattern has another name, but he goes by what Shallan chose for him because it is a "lie" and it allows Pattern to have a secret. As a cryptic he loves lies and secrets so he would enjoy going by a name other than his real one. One caveat to this is that Shallan bonded Pattern as a child and was far enough along to summon him as a blade. He may have told her his name is Pattern when she was little and she thinks of him as Pattern as an adult automatically while suppressing the memory of Pattern telling her his name. It seems like she made up a name for him, but in reality she already knew it.

If he was with the Skybreakers he was about as low a member as he could be. In ch. 19 of WoR Helaran tells his father he's with the Skybreakers so he probably was. I think one of the lies might be when Mraize writes that the Heralds are not to be viewed as allies. It's actually good advice, but Mraize is lying because he tries to recruit Ash later in the book. He doesn't want to be friends with the Heralds, he probably wants a more transactional relationship with Ash, but he is clearly trying to get on her good side by telling her where she can find Taln. He wants something from the Heralds and is actively trying to work with them while warning Shallan not to try to work with the Heralds.

It feels like Adolin is on an arc to revive Maya and become a knight radiant that way. I know Brandon likes to surprise, but I don't think he will have Adolin turn evil. Moash is being groomed to be the champion by giving him the Honor blade and having kill Jezrian. He may not end up being the champion, but that seems to be what Odium has in mind.

I take this as confirmation that the black spheres hold Unmade. At the end of Oathbringer, Navani told Dalinar that the gem used to trap the Thrill reminds her of a gem Gavilar had. Gavilar stated he had two in the OB prologue. One probably contains Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highpriestess of the Voidbringers who can grant forms and acts as a field general, which is the one they haven't found yet and are tearing the palace apart to try find. This is probably the one that Szeth hid. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram It would make sense for Yelig-nar to be in the other one that Gavilar gave to Eshonai. It's more of an appetizer compared to B-A-M who was capable of granting all the parsh forms even without Odium present on the planet. Plus, the Parshendi did not want it, assassinated Gavilar because of it and likely left it behind in Kholinar when they fled. It makes sense for this to be the one the queen ended up in possession of. I think the black sphere Szeth hid is still hidden in Jah Keved. I don't think Brandon would go through the trouble of having Szeth hide it in another country for it to end up back in Kholinar and unleashed with no explanation of how it was found. I think the Voidbringers believe it is still in Kholinar and that's what they are looking for in the palace.

It would be weird for the queen to have it in Kholinar when Szeth took it away from there and the last time we hear about it in from him in WoK he had hidden it in Jah Keved. Unless you mean the one Gavilar gives Eshonai. Perhaps, Odium thinks Gavilar still had the one Szeth took and that's why they are tearing apart the palace in Kholinar.

That makes sense!

Yeah, it's really confusing to me. When I read crystalline sphere I thought it was round and made of a crystal-like substance. None of the cuts shown in her notebook pages look like what I am imagining. Szeth thinks of it as a sphere which to me wouldn't have points or sharp edges and all the illustrations do. The heat gem is the least pointy, but it is kind of smooshed and flat. I can't imagine Szeth looking at it and thinking "sphere".

Pain spren, which seem to be non-sapient spren, probably existed pre-shattering. We know that Roshar was created by Adonalsium pre-shattering and the Parshendi were created by Adonalsium. Some spren could come from Adonalsium who, of course, had odium within along with everything else. This WoB confirms that most non-sapient spren existed on Roshar pre-shattering. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e141 #12 Questioner Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect? Brandon Sanderson Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium. #spren

My theory is that Odium is really what everyone else has always said he was, the shard of hatred (more or less), but Odium is able to absorb other emotions from people and give them back much like the pain spren in Navani's painrial do. All the emotions that Dalinar saw in the fiery inferno version of Odium, other than hatred, Odium collected from others and were not innate to the shard. Odium claims that he is not just hatred, but Passion. When Dalinar sees Odium's fiery inferno form he senses a lot different emotions, not just hatred. Later Odium tries to talk Dalinar into giving Odium his pain. Towards the end of OB Moash remarks to one of the Fused that he doesn't feel anything and the Fused tells him that Odium has taken his passion and will return it to Moash later. Navani's painrial's have pain spren in them. These spren are able to take the pain away from the wearer. The pain seems to be stored in the painrial because Navani is able reverse the flow of pain when she defends Queen Fen by disabling the would-be assassins in OB chapter 118. The assassins are only in pain temporarily, as if the fabrial only had so much stored up. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Painrial How can Odium do this and other shards haven't done it? It seems to have something to do with him being "The Void" an emptiness that allows him consumes the emotions of others. How does that relate to hatred of others for what they do or inspiring hatred in others? Perhaps there is an innate emptiness in hate, I don't know.

Taln is clearly made better when he's around stormlight. As you said, in OB he seems more himself when Dalinar is around him. In WoR, when Shallan uses stormlight to adjust her illusion while she's in his cell and he briefly snaps out of muttering the same thing over and over. Shallan didn't have as much stormlight as Dalinar so Taln's resurgence didn't last long. I wonder if that's how the Fused seem to never run out of Voidlight, Odium pumps it in direct to them. Venli observed that some constantly float/hover around even when inside. A huge waste of fuel unless running out of fuel is not a concern for them.

The Heralds who refused to go back that we know the most about seem to have snapped in ways that relate to the heraldic attributes they are associated with. Shalash is Herald of Beauty and Art and she goes around destroying art work. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shalash Nalan is the Herald of Justice and he executes people for stealing and trespassing while ignoring other larger crimes when it suits him. Szeth murdered SO many people, but Nalan saves his life, recruits him as a Skybreaker and gives him a kill-crazy sword. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nale Ishar's attributes Guiding and Pious. He seemed to have been a respected adviser of Jezrian before they became Heralds. After they became Heralds he told the Radiants that they must swear oaths and dedicate themselves to a greater good. Ishar seemed to be all about advising others and didn't make it all about himself. As Tezim he has declared himself a god-king and has put himself above all others. Ishar also, gave Nalan terrible guidance: he told Nalan to murder potential surge-binders and that the Everstorm didn't bring the Voidbringers back. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ishar Batar - Associated with Wisdom and Care. If we believe what Taravingion tells Dalinar she was working as Dova in his secret hospital helping him "care" for patients by killing them to get more death rattles. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Battar Jezrian was the Herald of Leadership. As expressed throughout Dalinar and Kalidan's arcs leadership means taking responsibility, being pro-active, making tough choices and leading by example. As Ahu, Jezrian doesn't doesn't lead by example, doesn't take responsibility, instead he drinks to forget what he did, and is not at all proactive. He just sits in the same place everyday and drinks. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Jezrien These are strangely specific perversions of their attributes to the point where it seems the "getting worse" has some magical component to it. Like, maybe Honor magically enhanced certain qualities he felt were important that these individuals already displayed, but once they turned their back on Honor and their oaths the magic started to curdle and rot.

True! I was thinking more of getting between the systems in the Cosmere. Another problem is why would Odium park it in Roshar's orbit if he invested in Braize and at least influenced events on Ashyn? Plus, we also see Odium get from Braize to Roshar via the Everstorm. His Fused say he rides the storm like "the enemy" (Honor) used to and he doesn't start appearing directly to characters until after the Everstorm comes. And that's with him still being "shackled" as he tells Dalinar. So, they clearly can get between planets within a system without it. Maybe once a shard invests some power in a planet it doesn't need the moon to get back to it. When Odium initially arrived in the system he might have invested a little bit in Ashyn, then followed the humans from Ashyn to Roshar. Then Cultivation and Honor somehow kicked him (or tricked him) to Braize and trapped him there, but he was still able to get to back to Roshar because he already had the Unmade there and eventually enough Voidspren got there to summon the Everstorm. That's a lot of maybes could be totally off base . I'm basing it mostly on a hunch. It's just that the slowly decaying orbit strikes me as the Shards doing a not so great parking job. Maybe Honor and Cultivation parked in stable orbits and Odium came in with his own moon, did lousy job parking it and threw the moon orbits off and they are slowly decaying. Like Odium double-parked because he wasn't planning on staying long, but then he got stuck. Honor is dead, Odium is shackled and Cultivation has invested a lot in Roshar while trying to remain "hidden" from Odium as Odium puts it to Dalinar. None of them are in a position to fix the orbits.

It has to relate to the three shards in the system. This WoB makes me think of several Squaresoft RPGs from the 90's like Final Fantasy 4, Final Fantasy 7 and Chrono Trigger where powerful beings traveled to a planet via a moon or meteor. We don't know how Shards travel the Cosmere and I've never given it much thought. Non-shard characters travel to different shard planets using the Shardpools (perpendicularities) in Shadesmar, but the Shards have to get to the planets first and invest enough in a planet for a shardpool to form in order for other characters to piggyback. Maybe these moons are needed (or one option) for shards to travel through the space in the Cosmere. Maybe in order for Shards to move their power through the void of space in the physical realm they have to invest that power in an object big enough to contain it and hurl it through space (somehow ...). Then the Shard moon get into the system it wants and it can hop the relatively short distance to a planet. This is almost all speculation. The three Shards could have just created a moon each around Roshar when they arrived.

Good discussion! I feel Kaladin and Shallan have a more primal, basic attraction in that Shallan reminds Kaladin of his mother. His mother is very witty and throws his words back at him. Kaladin reminds Shallan of her father: dark and brooding, but Kaladin is able to contain his anger which Shallan admires. That said they are both such a mess psychologically at this point they would be a disaster.

I think they were the first humans because the translated Dawnchant talks about the Voidbringers as if they'd never encountered a human before. They talk about them being soft and unable to hear Roshar. I'm not sure if they were the last though. It's weird that the Shin look so different from the Alethei and Azir. Maybe there were different tribes that all came at the same time and looked different and only the pale, "big Shin-eyed" people stayed in Shinovar and everyone else left to be able to access Stormlight. Or the Shin mostly stayed, some left then later waves of people who look like the Alethi, Azir and other came.

I was under the impression that Nohadon was an important part of the founding of the Knights Radiant. His scene in WoK is all about how they needed the surgebinders to be better, more reliable people and Roshar needed something to help them recover between desolations. The Knights Radiant organization helped with both these things. We definitely have conflicting information. From the following Taln quote it seems like the Knights developed on their own in between desolations and the Heralds rolled with it. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Talenel Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians . . . Knights Where as this WoR epigraph credits Ishar with imposing organization on them: "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." My best guess is Nohadon and others founded it and Ishar adjusted it when the Heralds next came back. Interestingly it does establish that Ishar was all about killing surgebinders for a looooong time before he told Nale to go around murdering them.