Oudeis

I have contributed over and over. I have referenced and cited the book and WoB. Your contributions have been "I just thought of it, so I'm going to state it, say that it's obvious, and claim that everything I come up with is true until someone else puts way more effort into proving it false than I put into assuming it true."

 

How about this. I'll stop misusing "literally" when you stop misusing "obvious." Yes, I am insulting you in my free time, and no, it doesn't take very long. Prolly about the same time it takes you to think of a thing and assume you're right, when you're demonstrably not. However, that's not the sum total of my posts. The vast majority of my posts have been actual work and effort, looking things up, referencing them, in order to support the things I'm saying. Nothing I've written can be proven false, because I've backed it up. I'm solid. Nothing you've said yet has been solid, and when you're challenged on it, your excuse is, "I'm right just because I'm right, if you disagree, you're the one who has to put effort into proving me wrong."

 

Which I have done. Often enough that I'm refusing the onus any further.

 

To be clear, I'm not really speaking to you. Talking to you over these months has shown me that you have no interest in an open discussion. (If you claim you are interested, then you deserve an Academy Award for your portrayal of someone who just wants to say something and be viewed as a genius.) You just state a thing, and get angry with anyone who takes the time to prove that you're making a faulty assumption. The logical fallacies that riddle your posts could be in a textbook under "ways not to argue if you want a real discussion."

 

The people I'm talking to are people, maybe some of them new, who come to this thread. You are far, far better at appearing very confident than you are at knowing what you're talking about. I worry that impressionable people will come to this thread, read over everything you've written, and actually think you're right. I know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm picking up on the fact that you view the inability to change your mind as one of your best traits. I'm not trying to. I just want to make sure that when someone new comes to this thread, they don't confuse your arrogance for accuracy. I want to make sure they hear a dissenting opinion, someone who backs up the things he says with references and facts, so that they walk away from this knowing that while you're confident, you aren't correct.

 

You say you want a real discussion. Prove it. Protip: It's gonna be a LOT harder than just saying "I want a real discussion," which so far has been 100% of the indications that you do. In a real discussion, you don't get to shift the burden of proof. I could go through everything you've said, and I could prove it all wrong, but that would be a mistake because for one thing, it would be me spending hours of effort to counter a few minutes of rambling on your part, but mostly because it would buy into the line you're trying to sell. Your basic assumption is, "Anything I say is simply true until proven otherwise," and that is antithetical to a real discussion. You are not the teacher. You are not the professor. You are not some genius, a scholar of Sanderson. You don't have the assumption of being right. You want to discuss? Then do it properly. You want to pose a theory? Support it. Show us where in the work it says, "Aon Rao is unmodified." Show us where it says any of the things you say. You can sit there and say, "I'm here for a real discussion." But literally nothing else you've said has supported that. If you want a real discussion, than start really discussing. Don't say a thing, and then say "point out exactly what you don't think is true." You have to start, from scratch, proving the things you say. Yata and I have both proven you wrong often enough, just in this thread, that even if you had the assumption in the first place that you knew what you were talking about (which you didn't) you have certainly lost it.

 

It's called the burden of proof, and you don't get to foist it on other people. You don't have the right to a double-standard. You can't just say, "This is right," and if someone responds, "No, it isn't," tell them, "You have to prove me wrong, and until you do, I'm still right." You can't make other people dissect your words, and nitpick. You can't try to lose an argument in pointless minutiae. You want a real discussion? Then don't just say you want a real discussion. Really discuss.

But shardblades cut through bodies...

 

I know. What's your point? If you're pouring enough Reverse Lashing into your Blade to make a body fly off the ground to your Blade, that's now the center of it's universe. However much you cut through the body (or rock, or whatever else you've just called to you), it's still just hovering around the blade. Next thing won't hit the blade, it'll just hit the body. Or boulder. Or cart. Pretty soon you'll just have a "ball of matter" like katamari around your Blade, and new things accreting will just stand on that.

 

Shardblades cut through bodies; they don't make them disappear. Remember the very first Shardblade fight we see. Szeth Lashes a couch at Gavilar. The King cuts it out of the air... and the two pieces just keep going and crash into him. "I can cut anything" isn't the solution to every problem.

 

But there are much more possibilities than just standing there with extended Shardblade and waiting for people to fall from the 100 meters away.

Imagine a fight in close combat, you make a swing, your opponent jumps back out of your range. As he does it, you extented your other hand forward, while summoning a straight blade pointing forward and creating a powerful Reverse Lashing on yourself/Shardblade/your hand/whatever.

The opponent is still in the air, close to you. There is nothing he can do to avoid being impaled.

EDIT: I just realized that Tendo from Naruto is a perfect example of using such abilities. He frequently pulled people towards him to impale them.

 

 

Eh. You seem to be assuming a Windrunner (or Skybreaker) against a mundane. If Kal, with all his powers, needs to resort to a trick like this... wouldn't it take a ton less Stormlight to just Lash yourself once towards the person so you're going to him? He can't avoid you any more than he could the Reverse Lashing.

 

What if he's an Iron allomancer, and can simply pull himself away, fighting gravity? What if he's an iron ferring, and can make himself weightless so your gravity gets no purchase on him? What if he's a Willshaper and simply teleports away?

 

And while we're at it... Reverse Lashings don't work on just one thing. They work on everything. If you make it powerful enough to pull a man who is "a short hop" off the ground, he'd normally land in a fraction of a second... but now you're putting so much Stormlight into it that you're ripping him at you so fast, he doesn't have time to land, to brace himself on the ground, to grab something on the ground and hold himself back. How powerful is that? What else is being affected? While you're trying to pull him, you don't see the horse flying through the air behind you to crash into your back. The innocent civilian to the side you didn't see who was just killed by your Blade.The earth itself being torn in chunks right beneath your feet.

 

It seems like an awfully expensive way to do something you could already do way easier with a different power, without a ton of side effects, that wouldn't work on a whole subsection of people with powers, and if you're fighting someone powerless, just holding Stormlight should make you fast enough that with a Blade you don't need any tricks.

 

Yeah... I'm just not seeing it. In a technical, abstract, ceteris parabis, "throw a ball off a cliff where there is no air" kind of way, sure, it sorta sounds cool. It just doesn't survive first contact with a real world situation. ("Real world" used very loosely here, I admit.)

No, you absolutely are not interested in a real discussion. And as for "just ask for clarification," every single post I have made in this thread has asked for one or more specific instances where you simply say something as true, even though the books tend to indicate they aren't. Literally everything you say but don't cite is either actually wrong, or certainly in contention. Check literally every post I have made in this thread for numerous specific examples.

 

Ela not being a functioning Aon: First, aons can modify other aons. This is stated multiple times in books, W's-o-B, and supporting documents. Rao itself is typically added to an aonic equation as a power builder, as is Omi. I believe Ene is listed as being used to indicate in what order a series of aons should "fire" in an aonic equation. Second, how can it give Elantris its name when no one even knew that Elantris was an Aon, let alone that it had a second one hidden in its streets? Third, WoB has said that only the base Aon needs the chasm line to function, but that they'd work better if you added the chasm line more times, like if a single aon has multiple copies of the "basic lines" or if the second aon is modifying the first. Do I really need to go on?

 

I'm not interested in getting caught up in minutae; it takes you a lot less time to just say whatever you think off the top of your head than for me to go through and point out to you how each and every one of them is wrong. You're utterly convinced that everything you say it totally accurate, despite the fact that I've proven you wrong over and over, every single point I've had the time to do so. I am not going to take the hours it would require to disprove literally every single thing it took you a minute to write in this thread. Just accept that, as a whole, you are not able to simply claim a thing and have it be accepted as "obviously true." You're attempting to unduly shift the burden of proof; even if I hadn't shown time and again that the things you state are false, it's a weak debate tactic to just say a thing and tell everyone else, "I am right until someone else takes the time to prove me wrong."

I expect that, much like simply Soulcasting an opposing force into Strawberry Jam, it's simply not cost-effective at the end of the day. Considering that Reverse Lashings don't affect things touching the ground as much, and that people can brace to resist since it's not over-writing the normal gravitational pull like a Basic Lashing, and even if it's stronger than gravity (do we know that it is?) people are fully capable of using muscle mass to resist gravity all the time; it's called jumping. Or standing. Or climbing a set of stairs. Or raising your hand. Or just about literally any action that isn't falling limply to the ground. I don't know if there's an upper limit to how powerful a Reverse Lashing you could make, but even if there's not, the amount of Stormlight you'd need to actually summon even just one person to your Shardblade would likely be prohibitive. And even if it worked... what then? Now you're holding a sword that has a dead body stuck to it, and other screaming people (and rocks, and plants, and animals, and carts) are also flying through the air right at you. If you're lucky, you'll kill one person before their body around your Shardblade prevents anyone else from being cut, even if they are attracted.

BTW, I feel I need to remind you all that while the Basic Lashing creates a gravitational pull of exactly the planet's pull, Reverse Lashing creates a far stronger field.

 

Except curiously, things actually touching the ground aren't affected as much.

And who says Shallan has to be honorable?

Voidus: Try to accept that all these assumptions you make which seem totally obvious to you, are, in fact, not. No modifiers? What about the Ela in the middle of Rao? What about all the buildings, and all of Raoden's comments on how weird it is to have a low wall curving in a random spot to no apparent purpose?

 

Look, see? A reference to something from the books, proving wrong the thing you think is so obvious, it couldn't possibly need a citation. This is why we reference things. I applaud your ability to just state your guesses and faulty memory so firmly and confidently, but considering how many time in this conversation you've been proven so utterly wrong, it might be time to take a step back and re-assess whether or not you really have grounds to stand on to continue claiming that you can just say a thing, and we should all assume it's correct.

What Yata said, and also, I never "pointed out" that AonDor must've been used to make Elantris, that I can recall. If my choices are between you not attributing your "facts" at all, and you misattributing them to make it sound like I support you, I think I'd prefer option A.

No, for your assumption that Elantris doesn't create the effect. The part of your statement wholly unsubstantiated, though I see how you could choose to confuse my meaning in an attempt at obfuscation.

Elantris just enhances the effect it doesn't create it, hence why they could still use Aons before fixing Elantris.

 

Citation?

Dalinar didn't have only 10K troops, those were the ones ready to march on literally a moment's notice. Remember, a vast part of his forces were patrolling public areas, and presumably some of them were training, or scouting, or in need of repair or discipline. How many actual troops does 10K battle-ready translate as?

Fingers crossed that this game won't be bad. Like Page said, it might be tied into the world. Or, it could just be another Monopoly game, where the mechanics are entirely standalone and it's painted with the skin of Mistborn; replace atium with mithril and Vin with Frodo and it's a Lord of the Rings game. I'm not especially enthused. I am aware that I'm a sucker for Sanderson properties, so I will kickstart the game at however much I need to get a copy of it, but I do so on the assumption that I will end cashing in some favors to get a few friends to try it out with me, then sticking it in the back of my closet and crying.

 

I am hoping that one of the stretch goals is "new cover art." Seriously, though, the fact that they picked this as cover art upsets me greatly. It makes them sound ham-fisted and tone deaf. Hopefully the actual game design is not like that, but according to the blurb, you don't play as the main characters, and the magic powers have little impact on the game. So of course 75% of the cover is 3 main characters and a battle between two of the most powerful magic users. And the rest is simply terrible art.

 

It feels like they're deliberately pulling a bait-and-switch. They made the conscious decision to populate the cover with the most popular characters, so someone seeing this on a shelf might think, oh hey, a Mistborn game! Wow, can't wait to play as Vin! ... Wait, you mean she's only in the game on a technicality? That's a cheap way to try to drum up sales from customers who don't do research. I'm hoping the philosophy around the rest of development had nothing to do with the team that decided what the cover art should look like, because the philosophy apparent from the choices they made in the cover design actually make me a little upset. Simply bad cover art is one thing, I can admit not everyone is aesthetically pleased by the same thing. This looks like a conscious decision to trick unsuspecting customers.

 

And to be honest, I've played the Mistborn Adventure Game quite a bit, and I'm really not in love with the mechanics. The game is impossibly unbalanced, and the philosophy seems to be, here's a loose framework, it's not intended to be a self-sustaining, functional game, you the players are just gonna have to make it work. Again, I'm holding out hope that the developers of the actual game itself were somehow entirely insulated from all related aspects. But as wonderful as hope is, the fact remains that literally almost every sign points to this being a poor game.

...Except that Honor himself tells Dalinar that to see what is to come is forbidden. Doesn't sound like the sort of thing you say about a power you deliberately granted mankind.

Sebarial has barely any troops, just some mercenaries. Each army is constructed differently, recall. Maybe it counts Sadeas's bridgemen. That would certainly pad the numbers. Maybe there's someone with a great number of light infantry, as opposed to smaller armies of highly skilled and equipped cavalry.

To address one minor point from above... she declared her atheism openly the night of Gavilar's assassination, before she realized she was a surgebinder or had formally met Ivory. So, while her bond may have reinforced the belief, she came to the conclusion (or at least publicly professed it) beforehand.

helaran wasn't a surge binger ..Assuming if he was a surge binder he would have to spoke upto the third ideal to gain a shard blade which make him a full Radiant (Only lightweaver have shard after speaking the first ideal,Pattern  confirmed he was the only cryptic to have bounded in centuries)  Don't think Even Kaladin could have killed a full radiant burning stromlight and Full shards with his limited ability  Taravangian wrongly assumed him as surge binger because of shallen surge binding ability and how close she was with helaran ..As far as we know there are very few surge binders might be a single knight from each order ( Patter and Syl confirmed they are the only one of their kind to bound ) also Pattern highly implied spren would die only if knight abandon their oath even syl said they could have done something about the dead spren if their bounded knight were alive ... I belive if their knight die their spren would fade back to cognitive realm ...

Ps. Syl implied stromfather survived the last recreance when knight abandoned their oath , i bliv his knight die before he abandon his oath or he didnt abandoned his oath.....

 

Eh... Shallan progressed in her Ideals as a child, she didn't have Pattern because they get the Shardblade earlier, she was able to summon him because she's already three Ideals along.

 

Ym could heal. The two Orders with Progression are Truthwatchers and Edgedancers. Renarin and Lift. So there are at least two of one of those Orders.

 

Someone has pointed out that if Helaran were foolish and didn't have any spheres on him, in an attempt to be secretive, he could have been killed by such a wound. That's preposterous, of course, as Kaladin was able to Invest enough to fully heal two broken legs in moments, and people standing two feet away from him couldn't see that he was Invested, so there's no way Helaran couldn't have Invested at least enough to survive such a stab wound and still been incognito. Not to mention the dozen other reasons the man he killed couldn't have been a Surgebinder, like the Blade that didn't dispapear and had a gemstone in its hilt.

 

I don't know why Taravangian thought Helaran could have trained his sister. I don't know if he thought Helaran was a Surgebinder, or if he just thought he was knowledgeable enough to give advice, like Teft attempted to with Kaladin. If he did think Helaran was a Surgebinder, I don't know why he would have, but it seems a stretch to assume, "Well, she's close to her brother, so I'm just going to assume he could Surgebind, too."

 

I don't know that we know for sure that the Stormfather has ever Bonded before. He seemed to find the idea... unique when it was suggested to him. Just because Dalinar did, doesn't mean someone else has, before.

Lol, easy cure for addiction, there's just this one thing you have to do every day, forever.

I came up with these ideas a while ago, but with a lot of research you could alter the course of someone's life. If you were feeling particularly odious and you wanted someone to suffer, you could Forge them into making a bad choice in life. (Ex: When choosing between a career path that makes them rich vs one they enjoy, you make them choose the one that makes them rich and miserable. Then you also Forge them into making a few... inefficient choices with how they spend their money so they become poor and miserable.)

 

Or if you're feeling benevolent, you do the reverse.

 

There are only a few major flaws in your plan...

 

First, remember that Shai is a paragon of Forgery, and she barely got this one Stamp to work, and it was as plausible as "his real personality". In order to really work, you'd need to know literally everything about this man, up to and including why his favorite color is green. Even then, you'd need months of testing stamps on either him, or people incredibly close to him. I doubt you'd find willing participants, or manage to do it without anyone knowing.

 

Even then, supposing it works, you won't change anything. He'll remember his other life, he'll remember making terrible decisions and wasting things, he'll remember opportunities slipping past... but right now, he'll be living in paradise. He'll have his house, his money, his family, he just won't remember getting any of it. It would be the most wonderful feeling in the world. Having made mistakes all your life, seen chance after chance slip through your fingers, and then in one magical moment he's just given everything. Everything he ever missed, retroactively returned to him, with interest.

 

And even if he didn't enjoy it, even if it felt wrong or weird, the stamps aren't permanent. Even if you somehow did make this so that things were bad, he just has to remove the stamp. Or not stamp himself after one day. Or get more than five feet from that metal seal with all the other stamps. And poof, his life is back to normal.

 

It feels like a lot to go through, prolly years of effort in order to punish a person by giving them a euphoric feeling of perspective and bliss for a few minutes.

Eh, I think you're missing my point, but whatever.

Eh... possible, but in the meantime, I'm going to assume the ars arcanum was right without significant justification to think otherwise. "Just cuz I like my theory better" isn't really a reason to just assume the ars arcanum was wrong in this specific way. If there were a compelling reason to believe the theory regardless, I'd consider "the ars arcanum has been wrong before" to be a valid reason not to discount the new theory, just because it disagrees with the ars arcanum.

Eh... I see Mason's point. We're shifting goalposts. His "miracle" is fake, but it's not just for show. So why couldn't fake armor be not-just-for-show? Why couldn't fake armor be something he does to project a sense of power?

 

I can see the case being made that if he could have performed a real miracle, he would have. Since he could wear real armor, he did. Still. Mason's point is valid; the line was weird. The miracle wasn't "just for show," but it does prove that fake things aren't necessarily "just for show".

My apologies; I meant to express that the term "Shardbearer" is anyone with either Plate, Blade or both. I realize looking back that it looked like I was saying, a Shardbearer is someone with only Plate.

So, I'm not positive. I know there was a reference to "30 Shardbearers" in the Alethi armies. Just clarifying, that refers to people like Elit, who have the Plate but no Blade. If you're looking specifically for the number of Blades, it's nothing but an upper bound.

 

Personally, between "twenty" and "dozens" specifically for Shardblades, I'd guess that between 20-24 Blades is a reasonable estimate.

A bunch of my Sanderbuddies live in Australia. Your weeping falls on deaf ears.

 

They are definitely the only thing helping me check my sanderprivilege. I live on the East Coast, in the nation's capitol, and I'm used to literally everything coming to me. The fact that we didn't get a tour at all last year when it got cancelled due to the threat of snow, and that the only thing I got to go to this year was a three hour drive away, is not something I have any right to complain about.

Eh... well, you seem willing to accept that the bar you've passed is "cannot be proven false" and I concur. I think this is unlikely in the extreme. It doesn't really make any sense and you seem to be assuming that allomancy fundamentally works differently than it always has, assuming that in hundreds of years and two or three astoundingly good allomancers, no one has once figured out that burning metal and then getting the power are distinct steps. Also, constructive criticism, I think I understand what you're saying but it's not at all clear. You might want to consider taking a step back and trying to find new ways to word you examples, because in the past couple of posts you've mostly just re-stated the same things. If someone didn't understand the first time you said it, they're unlikely to understand if you just use the same phrasing. Maybe try approaching it from another angle, or use an analogy or something.

 

My biggest... well, one of my biggest issues is, where is the power coming from? In normal feruchemy, you're storing and tapping equal amounts of power. In allomancy, power is being externally applied to you from Preservation itself. In compounding as we know it, you use the attributes of feruchemy, but charge them with the extra power provided by allomancy.

 

It sounds like you're saying in your model, you burn steel and... if you have steel feruchemy, you just decide that the same amount of steel will burn with more power. Where does the power come from?