Oudeis

Syl is flitting around Kaladin all the time, and Dalinar never notices her. Also, when Rock sees Syl, he tells them why that's not so unusual; unless there are a LOT of honorspren around there's no reason Rock would be so used to seeing all the Honorspren and no other kinds, so I don't think his "honor" makes him terribly more invested. it's an interesting theory, but if anyone with any strong personality trait were more invested, I feel like there'd be a ton of evidence throughout the book.

People keep saying I have no evidence... I put my evidence there. We know that the transition does go one way, from feruchemy to allomancy. I realize it's not exactly "WoB says it goes the other way," but it's still precedent. Why is it so impossible to believe the process can travel the same road in the other direction? If you disagree, say so, but I wish people would stop ignoring my evidence and then saying I'm not providing any. You're making an arbitrary distinction. "The five senses are all separate aspects of one specific trait." Yet, "These two uses of steel (allomantic and feruchemical) are separate and distinct, and aren't just different aspects of one specific trait," despite our precedent that this is exactly how it works when you use a feruchemical charge to filter allomantic power. You are more than welcome to your opinion, but if you're going to tell me that your opinion disproves my theory, I will disagree with you until your opinion is backed up by some evidence in the text, some WoB stating that yes, the five senses are all one trait, but the two sides of steel aren't. Frankly, I can point to Miles and Rashek as compounders to show you that the two aspects of Gold are obviously connected in some way, while, with respect, all you've got is, "that's not how I feel." Wile I fully validate your feelings, they aren't the same as text-supported proof. (then 3 was simply a semantic debate with someone else and doesn't seem germane to what we're discussing, and 4 I feel like I addressed above, so I'm skipping to your...) I still don't see why you're drawing arbitrary distinctions. Almost everyone on the planet has eyesight; there's nothing special about your eyesight, apart from the fact that it's yours. It's the thing inside of your eyes that connects to your brain and provides you with visual information. Everyone eats, and caloric energy isn't unique to any single person, yet if you store food in a bendalloymind no one else can draw from it, for no other reason than, you ate it. The trait of "burning steel" is as much a part of you as the trait of "metabolic energy." You put steel in your body, and because of the uniqueness of your spiritweb, energy gets pulled from Preservation and filtered into the ability to sense metal and Push on it, and this new energy fills your body as surely as the heat from a sauna increases the heat inside your body. There might not look like a difference between your own ability to burn steel versus that of any other Coinshot, just as there doesn't, objectively, seem to be any difference between your wakefulness and my wakefulness, yet it's special for no reason beyond it being your own. In summary, I've drawn parallels supporting my argument from various aspects of allomancy, feruchemy, common sense, precedent in the book, and established rules of compounding. Not to belittle anyone's opinion, as I realize this is still very speculative without concrete proof, but I feel like a lot of people are telling me that the idea is literally not even plausible (I'm not asking anyone to admit it's true, just plausible) largely because people simply don't "feel right" about it. Feelings aside, can anyone give me one single evidence from WoB or the text, any word written in steel that says that our theory isn't just "not proven true," but is actually implausible?

It's widely accepted (I don't know if it's proven) that all metaphysics are Investiture; we're not sure how Feruchemy started, but it's something that exists because Scadrial itself is Invested by Ruin and Preservation both. The actual traits themselves might lack Investiture (it's not like your eyesight is being powered by Preservation or Ruin, it's your own eyesight) but the 'magical' ability to temporarily store them in bits of metal is very much Investiture. This might be one reason why a full metalmind isn't very heavily Invested; the trait itself is simply a mundane trait, it's just inside a "bag" if you will of Investiture. Like the candy coating on an M&M, instead of Investiture through-and-through like a Shardblade is. As to your second... you make a very good point, but Vin does both Push and Pull on atium, and expresses some concerns throughout the book that it might be affected by Allomancy, so it seems like for whatever reason atium doesn't resist ironpulls or steelpushes. I'm with you, in that I don't see why it's an exception.

Hrm... no? Rock doesn't seem to have any special Investiture, and he sees Syl just fine. Presumably, all Parshendi have Spren bonded to them, yet when Kaladin is super-charged with Stormlight he doesn't see anything. I mean, it's a theory, and I guess we don't have enough examples for me to prove that it's implausible; the few instances we get are, to the best of my knowledge, inconclusive. Still, you don't really offer any actual support for your own theory. If you know of a time that anyone in text suggests it, or a time that a heavily Invested person saw a spren trying to hide, I will throw my support behind your theory.

Mr. Ahlstrom, I find you to be a very, very intelligent man.

Marsh actually says, in the chapter where he attacks Penrod, that the size does matter, but that a very small spike can still hold enough to transfer an entire ability. Think Vin's earring. He mentions that a five-inch spike of bronze is far more than required to transfer a Smoker's power, that in fact it was made bigger than necessary for sheer structural integrity while being shoved through a breastbone.

My friend asked this specific question of Brandon at a recent signing. I've asked him to join us and tell us what the answer was.

Yes, everyone agrees with that statement. No one is saying metalminds aren't invested; well some people are, but I'm not. I'm saying "invested" isn't a binary thing; a metalmind, even a full one, has only so much Investiture, and it's not enough to block Steelpushes. Valid point, I'd forgotten about those. Thank you. Further evidence that something can be Invested, and yet not possess the same level of Investiture as, say, a Shardblade.

First and foremost, let me state yet again that we're not looking to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is true. All that either of us is saying is, here's our idea of what might work. So if you're looking for us to say, "Here's a place in the text where someone does this," you're going to be disappointed. I'm going to re-state our basic idea now, hopefully answering your questions. If you choose to decide that you think it's unlikely, fine. If you want to tell us that we're wrong or even implausible, please provide something in-text that shows that what we're suggesting cannot happen. We know and admit that this theory isn't rock-solid yet, that it's simply a possibility, so you don't need to say anything to prove that it's not yet fact. If you're going to continue arguing that we're wrong, then it is your burden to prove that we have failed to achieve even the low threshold of "plausibility", not because people can just say whatever they want and put it forth as fact, but because we admit this isn't fact, it's just an idea. If you're going to continue telling us it's not even that, then yes, you've taken the burden upon yourself to address our arguments. And once again, your own personal opinions on realmatics are not proof, unless you can support them from the text. The theory runs like this. Presume one is a twinborn in, let's say steel. One has a decent reserve of metal in one's stomach, and a steel ring on one's finger. One could store one's own physical speed in this ring, because that is steel's feruchemical trait. One could not store body heat, because that isn't this metal's feruchemical trait. However, then one starts to burn steel. Now, one has a trait one didn't have a moment ago; that trait is "allomantic steel investiture"(1). One can now pick which trait to store; physical speed, or allomantic steel(2). One chooses to store the allomancy, the process turning the steel ring into a steelmind(3). Now even though one is still burning the steel in one's reserve, one is not gaining the benefit; one does not see steellines going to metal, and one cannot Push on metal(4). However, later, one now has a full reserve of allomantic steel burned and stored in the steelmind. Like one can tap any attribute, one can now tap this reserve, and even though one is now not actively burning, one can nevertheless see steellines and Push on metal. With the well-known phenomenon of feruchemical dilation, one can draw the trait out faster, filling one's body with allomantic power, making one capable of Pushing on metal with far more force than would normally be possible. And that's the theory. (1)We know that compounding works the other way, so it's not a stretch to think the road goes both ways. If a feruchemical charge can act as a filter, drawing out Preservation's power in a feruchemical "flavor", it isn't a stretch to think that metals might not have the feruchemical potential to store their own allomantic partner. (2)Tin is our evidence that this is possible. With a tin ring, a feruchemist gets to choose which of five attributes to store. So we have precedence of two things: One, that metals can clearly store more than one specific attribute, and two that the feruchemist can easily choose which of those attributes to store. (3)This has been brought up, so I'm going to say again that I think this is a largely semantic difference. Like, yes, the difference between an empty box and a full one. We know that a piece of iron that's not an ironmind can easily have weight added to it; things don't need to already be metalminds in order to become metalminds; in fact, they must not be metalminds in order to become metalminds, the way a scent tinmind cannot start storing sight. Yet, it seems to be a simple, natural process for a feruchemist to take up a piece of tin, "blank" shall we say, and make the decision to store one of five attributes. I've heard people say, "No, you cannot start storing into a piece of tin until it's already a tinmind, and once it's a tinmind you can't store a second attribute," and I would like to find evidence of that first part before I accept it. I think it goes against what we know of tin. (4)Much like bendalloy or brass, it's widely accepted that for certain traits, external power can be applied and then stored. Storing the filtered power of Preservation is no different from storing excess heat while one is in a sauna, or excess caloric energy while one eats at a bar that offers endless wings for $12.99. One thing, dj26, that we keep asking for is that you address our actual points. You have said a number of times, "this goes against my theories on realmatics" and then talked a lot about your theories and claiming that we're offering no evidence. Here, yet again, is all of our evidence. Please address it this time if you still have objections. We all know now how you feel about realmatics, so please don't bother mentioning it again. It will add nothing new to the conversation, unless this time you can support your theories from the text.

It's been suggested that Adonalsium broke like a puzzle, like there are sixteen pieces that fit back together in a certain way. Is this true? As an example, Ruin and Preservation seem to have been joined fairly well (Sazed even mentions as he takes them up that they feel like they belong together). Is it always that easy? Can any two Shard be joined that way, or like puzzle pieces do you have to find Shards that belong together? If one person tried to pick up both Endowment and Devotion and they happened to be two Shards that weren't originally adjacent, could you no more merge them than you could two mismatched jigsaw pieces? Or was Adonalsium like a jug of water, and the Shards like sixteen puddles? Can you take a cup and put literally any two puddles into it, regardless of whether those two "measures" of water had once been adjacent?

Wow you guys posted a LOT while I was at karaoke. I'm going to reply to what I feel is the one biggest point of contention left, maybe one-and-a-half, then go to bed, and when I wake up I'll re-read this all and perhaps have more thoughts to share. Also, I call "group hug" for how much we're all clearly caring about each others' feelings. I'm just gonna say, I think that "cosmere-aware" means "aware of the cosmere." I wonder if the cosmere itself is the word we're having trouble defining. I don't think the cosmere refers to the three realms, I believe the word for that is "realmatics". I think the cosmere is basically the name of this specific galaxy. It is a system of several stars with a total of ten (important) planets, each of which hosts a fragment (or more) of a single specific God. I think just knowing about the other planets is technically cosmere-awareness, but true cosmere-awareness is to know at the very least that there's a connection between the divine driving forces of all the planets. Someone like Hoid, obviously, is even more cosmere-aware than we, the readers. As to why I think I was justified in pointing out the first of marianmi's uses of the term, I still thing I was correct. In context, she was specifically saying what the Lift interlude itself tells us. I don't think there's anything in that specific interlude that reveals that Wyndle knows one thing about the cosmere as a whole. He doesn't mention one other planet, any Shard not from Roshar, or any other system of Investiture. In fact, the fact that Lift's trait is so at least cosmetically similar to allomancy, and yet he says he's never seen anything like it, speaks to him being cosmere-unaware. I've seen a few people point to Syl's recognition of Odium as proof that Wyndle is cosmerically aware, and I have two things to reply to this. First, even if true, the post I was referring to said that this interlude showed cosmere-awareness, and Odium wasn't mentioned here. Whether something from a different chapter of a different book might imply something else isn't what's being debated; the point is we were talking about the impact of what was introduced in this chapter, specifically. Second, Odium is a huge force on Roshar. Knowing his name, knowing he's here to destroy, knowing he killed Tanavast and Splintered Honor, none of that makes anyone cosmere-aware, as those are all things that pertain to Roshar. If someone were to know he came from a different planet, or that he's slain other Gods, or that Harmony is Ruin and Preservation combined, would make someone cosmere-aware. And, I suppose most importantly (and maybe I should have led with this), I think that marianmi has said that she never intended to suggest that Wyndle knew of worlds beyond Roshar. She used the term when she meant that he knew of the different Realms. She used the term at the time that she thought was appropriate, and in my opinion she thought that because she's seen it elsewhere on this forum, because I've seen it used to mean that elsewhere, too. I happen to think it's an improper definition is all, and I wanted to point it out in the hopes that people will stop using it, so the next person like marianmi who comes along trying to learn terms won't learn them wrong. Just one man's opinion.

Precise? Sure. Surgical? ... I suspect you would have quite a time trying to find a real surgeon who could ever refer to the process of literally pounding a metal spike into someone's chest with a mallet as "surgical" in literally any possible capacity of the word. Which isn't to say that I think you're fundamentally wrong, just in every specific instance of it that we've seen to date. I actually very much like your surgery analogy, and I'm about to explain why. You seem to be likening hemalurgy to modern surgery, while I think it would be more accurate to describe it in terms of the entire history of surgery. Once upon a time, not actually all that long ago, surgery was, "get the poor man drunk, stick this wooden peg between his teeth, literally saw off his leg, then dip the whole thing in tar. NEXT." And before that it was even more barbaric. I put to you that this is what hemalurgy as we've seen it is like; a brutal system that deals far, far more damage than it technically needs to, both in body and soul. I think that hemalurgy has the potential to be performed properly, with neater incisions that take only and exactly what they have to, and follows up with spiritual sutures that hardly leave a scar. I see no reason to assume that this is the default setting. I think right now, there's no aftercare whatsoever. We have seen not a single case (unless you'd like to hear my theory about Fedik) of a person surviving this "surgery", and I frankly wouldn't be surprised if that weren't only due to physical damage; I suspect that much like victims have a spike stabbed through their chest and the wound is never tended to, their souls are shredded and there's no neat little tie-ing up of the loose ends when they're done. If the physical wound were non-fatal, I honestly suspect the spiritual one would "bleed out" unless someone did do something to address the wound; it doesn't take a very large wound on a human to bleed out, get an infection, or do any of a number of other nasty things if at least basic first-aid isn't applied; why should the spiritweb be any different? But your basic point remains very sound. I think that with greater understanding and knowledge, what you suggest is very possible. A skilled practitioner of hemalurgy could potentially use a precision spike (a scalpel rather than a bonesaw), insert it precisely, perform whatever necessary secondary action it turns out to be in order to "suture" the spiritweb, and a person could be left without whatever ability they just lost, possibly weak and very damaged like someone in our world right after an actual surgery, but ultimately alive and perhaps even able to heal a bit and find a way to a new normal. My only point of contention at this point is, you seem to feel that this is all the default setting, whereas I believe that, like real-life medical science, it's a process we'll have to work our way towards.

I'm not sure I agree... I think we need to consider what "a lot of Investiture" really means. I think that a metalmind, even a full one, or a charged hemalurgic spike, has a certain degree of Investiture. I think this amount is very low. It does one specific thing, it is otherwise unremarkable, and it's a very common "thing" on the planet. I think something like a Shardblade, an entire blade summoned from the aether by the beating of a heart, something tied intimately to your spiritweb, is a thing of tremendous Investiture. I think if there were a scale of "amounts of Investiture" and you tried to measure a Shardblade versus a charged spike of Allomantic Bronze, orders of magnitude would be involved in the difference. Take, for example, things on Roshar. A Shardblade cannot penetrate Shardplate the way it can almost anything else in the world. Yet it seems to be able to cut fabrials, which are Invested objects, with relative ease. When it was said that some researchers felt they were close to being able to create Shardshields that could block Blades, Adolin (I think it was him) nearly scoffed; even with artefabrian Navani herself speaking on their defense, it was a tough sell. It's widely accepted that the sheer density of Investiture is what protects Shardplate from the attack of a Shardblade, yet items of lesser Investiture provide no challenge. I suspect such is the case on Scadrial. It's possible that, technically, a filled metalmind might not be Pushed as forcefully as silver, or tin that isn't a tinmind, and maybe a charged spike has a similar miniscule degree of resistance, but that doesn't mean they can't have any Investiture, at all. It simply means that even a full metalmind has, on a cosmeric scale, relatively low Investiture. Just my thought. Although I'll throw out, too, for whoever pointed out that Vin pushed on The Lord Ruler's full metalminds... she was drawing on the Mists at the time, and pushing on metal inside his body, considered to be impossible. Adding one more impossibility to that scenario is a comparably minor thing.

First, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but you make it sound like theories are binary things; like something is either flawless, or let's junk it. Clearly, I'm sure you'll agree, there is a spectrum, ranging from "Proven via text" all the way to "Utterly disproven," with dozens of stops along the way, like "widely accepted", "plausible", and "a stretch" to name just a few. Mere plausibility is a relatively low bar, and I think we who support the theory have met it; we've provided support and evidence which has barely been remarked on. We aren't saying we're right because you have failed to prove us wrong, we're saying that it's plausible because you've ignored the bulk of our argument, in favor of claiming that it can't be true because it disagrees with a pet theory of yours. I even pointed out that your personal grasp of the realmatics of the situation is flawed, and your reply was, "well that's true, but I'm still right." And may I say, as far as I know, from the texts and Mr. Sanderson himself we have but mere scraps of how the interactions of the three realms actually work, yet I frequently hear them brought out on this forum as though the various theories are simply accepted fact. And frankly, those who buy into this idea tend to act a little condescending towards those of us who haven't yet had a drink of this kool-aid. Basically, if you'd like to address our arguments for this theory and find WoB or quotes from the text (Words in steel, as I'm going to try to start calling them) to explain why they are unfeasible, I for one would be all ears. If you're going to tell me yet again that your pet theory is simply correct and I have to accept that, I'm afraid we probably aren't technically having a conversation any longer. And please, do not quote Occam's Razor. Even in real life, it's practically a fallacy. In a novel, especially written by such a clever storyteller, "the simplest explanation" will almost never happen, and thank goodness, because that would make for a terribly boring book. But secondly, if you're going to tell us we should accept the simplest explanation, you might not want to claim that a long, involved theory which you yourself referred to as "almost a novel" is simpler than a few quick paragraphs. And finally, I honestly don't understand what you mean when you speak of "fundamental change in the metal in a metalmind and other metal of the same composition". If you can find a different way to phrase that, I might understand what you're saying and be able to respond.

Excellent point. Even if he would "naturally revert" over time, and even if he could do so without going insane remembering what it was like to BE destruction, presumably it would take a bit of time. And we don't even have confirmation that reverting is even a thing; as Claincy says, there's no reason to assume it would. Not to ruin your head-image. If it makes you feel any better, as far as I'm concerned, replacing Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen in that scene is exactly the kind of hope-shriveling change Ruin would have made.

Interesting... allomancy creates beings by applying external power to shape a single spiritweb. Hemalurgy creates them by taking several spiritwebs and forging them into one thing, less than the sum of its parts. With feruchemy... perhaps there is a means by which traits could be swapped? Like lego bricks? Where two feruchemists have no more or fewer traits than they began with, simply different ones? Like, and this is pure conjecture at this point... what if there were a way for two feruchemists to touch, and swap some essential trait? Like one would give up his sight, permanently doubling the other's sight while permanently blinding himself, yet gain double-smell, while his partner will now never smell again?

Oooooh haven't read that yet. It's been established that Shardblades are bonded directly to your spiritweb, yes? Is there any consequence of using something that's an extension of your own soul to brutally destroy the soul of another?

Hrm... first, I sorta agree with the idea that honorblades are mostly hidden in plain sight; that without knowing what you're doing, they wouldn't automatically look like not-normal shardblades. Second... I'm going to look up that quote. Does it expressly say the King's own Blade? I remember thinking at the time that it meant the King himself had a few, three maybe four, Blades in an armory, to be kept to loan out for duels or in case someone does something that deserves a reward, so he doesn't have to wait around until he gets a new one. But I admit I didn't pay close attention at the time, and maybe I missed something that made it clear they meant Elhokar's own specific actual personal Blade. Dalinar's thoughts on the matter gave me the impression that simply "loaning out" your personal Shardblade, something literally bonded to your own very soul, would be like casually allowing another man to hold your junk. That personal, that intimate, that unthinkable.

I see what you mean, though I propose an impartial third party would work better than an ally. Whoever delivers the message will presumably be put under scrutiny in case Hoid ever contacts him again, making him less useful to Hoid. Is it possible there are worldhoppers out there non-vital to the cosmere-wide story? People who just travel from world to world because they can, who have nothing to do with Odium or Adonalsium at all? Personally I think Hoid must have some mechanic or magic that allows him to send the message in some manner that cannot be traced, leaving it where the recipient was sure to find it, or some Shadesmar equivalent of "tieing it to a rock and chucking it through your window".

Knighthawk Foundry!?!?! It'd make sense, as a non-cosmere world they're the only ones non-biased on the whole Adonalsium thing...

Exactly. Hence his waffling in this very book. He doesn't just say, "This is right." He says, "This is right. I mean, it is. isn't it? Right?" That sounds like the kind of hedging I'd expect from Ham. Again let me re-iterate, I still think it's Spook. But I think Ham is an option (literally, in my opinion, the only other possible option) and he's not a terribly unlikely one.

3. I agree that I should hold myself to a higher standard; as I'm about to say, I disagree with your assertion that I didn't. 1. You are right. I could have been nicer. I do hope, @marianmi, that I made it clear I wasn't talking only about you, but that it's a way I see people across these fora talk. 2. ... I agree with almost none of this. First, the specific instance in this case that provoked my reaction wasn't directly about Wyndle's broader knowledge of Adonalsium and his various Shards, it was about interactions between the Physical and Cognitive realms and how energy can be created/transferred/metamorphosed/what-have-you by such an interaction. Yes, I know he knows about things beyond that, but they aren't any more germane to this specific instance than his knowledge of gardening is. Also, while you point out that yes, he also knows about the specific Shards of this world, there is absolutely no reason to assume he knows that other worlds even exist. He makes no mention of any other Shard, not even Odium. For the specific knowledge that marianmi referred to, "realmatically aware" is more accurate, and even for the specific knowledge you now refer to, "cosmerically aware" isn't as appropriate as simply saying he knows of the Gods of this one world. It's a huge leap on your part, unsubstantiated by the text, that he knows anything about the broader cosmere as a whole. It would be like me claiming to know your family, just because I've spoken with you on these fora. Lastly, I see you were downvoted. I wanted to clarify that it was not me who did that, and that I am in fact upvoting you for making good points, for reminding me to be more civil, and for drawing my attention to the fact that I may have inadvertently hurt marianmi's feelings. I am sorry, marianmi.

Was "The Letter" delivered? How?

I actually think that anyone at the Fifth Heightening is more "essentially immortal" than a Returned, as their Breaths will keep them eternally alive without any upkeep, while a Returned is basically staying alive by feeding off a specific, depletable resource. It's a fine point of distinction, I'll grant, and you're absolutely right in that they can be beheaded as easily as anyone else. Actually, I'm going to argue with you on Heralds. Yes, they can be killed. They just don't seem to die. I'm going to say that it's believable that Hoid would consider "eternal re-spawning" to be "essential immortality". So they're more than simply ageless. I still agree that a Shard makes the most sense. They barely need a qualifier for their immortality. No random happenstance or natural part of their life-cycle will ever result in their demise, and if you wish to engineer their death, being omnipotent is only the first step of what you must accomplish. In a world where you know that Shards exist, it'd be hard to call just about anything else "essentially immortal". How was the Letter delivered, anywho? Cos-mail?

Way, WAY back to the OP, I figure I'll put in the text from the novel, un-spliced. This is what Wax was reading at the start of the blurb, without interjections about their wedding plans. Please note that like everything in the Steelhunt, it isn't canon until it's been published. Of all the people who know Sazed well enough to call him "Saze," the only ones living by the end of the novels are, unless I'm mistaken, Marsh, Breeze, Ham and Spook. Would Allrianne know him that well? I'm gonna say no, and we've got it confirmed that Marsh did NOT write the book. Breeze has never been that indecisive in his life, mental breakdown included. And he would not "write one of these things," he would "inscribe the intimate details of my life onto the very annals of history itself, that future generations might know the glory that was me." I can totally see Ham being this indecisive. Indecisiveness was utterly the hallmark of his character. To the extent of provoking the surprised reaction from Elend in Hero of Ages, "Ham... did you just come to a conclusion?" Spook makes more sense, as he's got more direct experience with hemalurgy and with Ruin. But I would truthfully not be surprised if this turned out to be written by Ham.