Oudeis

Someone remind me of all of the visions... We've got the one with the midnight essences where he points out that it's too dark to see anything, like spren. We've got Feverstone Keep, which is set on a barren plain. Keep in mind Roshar isn't necessarily barren, the grass just hides from people. Even without highstorms, they would still be barren places. We've got the Kholinar one with Nohadon, set in the middle of a city with dead monsters and humans filling the streets. Not really a ton of rockbuds he might have seen. Spoiler for WoR Readings: I admit, I haven't memorized every vision he's had. Am I missing any? Or, can anyone go to one of the visions and point out to me any time he sees one single thing that is adapted to the Highstorms? The best we've got is, that city from the first vision is built on the leeward side of a rock, which I admit is some evidence for the other side. But not enough, I think, to disprove this idea.

The Knights Radiant don't age? Also, I know there are less than a hundred known Shardblades, according to Dalinar who'd know, in "Modern Roshar", but at Feverstone Keep he made a point of noting that of the two orders of Radiants who showed up, there were about 300 Blades. So we know the numbers fluctuate, we don't know why, and nothing about that gives us info on the KRs aging or not. We know the Radiants from the vision with the Midnight Essences were trying to recruit Dalinar. Dunno what that says about aging/not. Inquisitors Heal slower than normal? What/where do we know that from? Elantrians heal fast, yes. They are not immortal. They age and die. Over the course of the first book, the Shaod comes to the people of Kae several times a week; unless that many Elantrians die, the population would be unsustainable. That is... rampantly speculative. Just throwing that out there. Can you back it up with anything? Even if you're saying based on mechanical power output... yeah I still disagree, because it's apples and oranges. Lashings are geared specifically to use Stormlight to "fling things about", basically, so it's not implausible that it uses the energy more efficiently in that regard than Breath. Breath, on the other hand, is fundamentally the stuff of life, and so freezing the aging process could well be achieved far more efficiently using it than using Stormlight. Steel, pewter, and duralumin can send a large chunk of metal flying into the sky faster than a Lashing could. Does that mean a few pinches of those metals are more "powerful" than a fully-charged emerald broam? Yet the Light of one broam could heal you so much better than a hundred times that much pewter, even with duralumin. Different magics do different things; that doesn't mean one is more powerful or weaker, and it's the opposite of meaning that every magic system does the same thing (i.e. grant immortality). As for Jasnah's looks... I've read it, especially in the WoR first chapter, that she doesn't look any younger than she is, she's simply more beautiful at her age than most women are. Her own mother, Navani, is another example.

That... no... huh... what? The point of it being fourth-dimensional isn't that there are simply more options, it's that it's now a hypercube. It's got the x axis and y axis of a punnet square, the z-axis we know of/can imagine, and a fourth axis we cannot imagine. One of the things that makes genetics so easy is that you've only got two parents. But let's say that the Z-axis is "where you were born". That means there's sections for each Shardworld, of which there are 10 major ones, and who knows how many minor ones, further sub-divided into actual regions (at least on Sel). So... more than 16.

I guess? I'm still not understanding you, then. If "changing metal" doesn't "change how stars work" anyway, who cares if the change is local or universal? Are you saying that you think he's actually physically changing the iron of Scadrial, so that atomically it would be different, and react differently, than the iron of other planets? We've got WoB somewhere that as far as physical matter goes, atium is simply another metal. The differences, what makes it special, are all in the spiritual realm. So basically, a Shard shows up on a planet, "Invests" in it, and wraps up the spiritual aspect of the focus of its magic system with a form of energy. I suppose you're right, I can't prove that it only Invests in the focus that appears on the planet, but you've offered no real evidence as to why this would be cosmere-wide, rather than local.

...unless there was an extant deity whose Intent was to help things grow in a way that would best allow them to adapt to their current environment.

head!desk. My sister told us she was having fraternal twin girls and my mom and I freaked out that we would spend their lives confusing them. These two little girls look NOTHING alike, it's hilarious. If you're told that they're related you can see a bit of resemblance, that's seriously it. I met triplets once, identical girls with a fraternal brother. I was with a genetics counselor at the time and she basically did a spit-take when she heard about it. They've apparently never before just run into someone at a bar knowledgeable enough to ask about the division of the placenta.

That doesn't make any sense. We know that Odium has to Invest in Roshar to affect Roshar; if he Invested elsewhere he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing on Roshar. If Investing one place means you're Invested everywhere, why would Investing in just one planet be a thing? Why wouldn't Odium just Invest in his own world and affect Roshar? The way you phrase it, you're making things into a bigger deal to prevent it being a bigger deal. If Investing in a planet changes how organic chemistry works, wouldn't it be a much worse thing if that meant it was changed across the cosmere? If you only change how things work on one planet, your Investiture can deal with it; if you change it across the cosmere, you have to deal with it everywhere, too.

?? Do you know if there's any actual evidence for this theory? Can you link us to it?

Fraternal or identical?

Also he didn't know it was happening until right then. And last time he risked that move, Vin almost got killed. Still, it's a good thought. I don't think Kell thought of it.

That, and by then the world was ending even without Ruin's direct involvement. Vin had ripped away the ash and doomed the world to burning fire. The koloss were entering the tunnels and killing all the humans there. Ruin could eventually have smelted his atium out, but in the meantime the last humans would slowly run out of food and starve to death in their caverns, assuming they could even live down there as the planet heated up.

Is he referring to atium? That people are committed to the next couple of seconds of action, and that this can be predicted by a Shard?

Rade, I think you're close but not quite there. Moogle, you're right of course, at a certain point Vin would have eventually started thinking about everything by the metric of Preservation. I say Shard first, Intent second. A close second, mind you, and a big enough deal to at least influence any decision she would have made. But Shard still comes first. I think there are rules that pertain to being a Shard that supersede even an Intent. Just because it's the biggest single part of a Shard's personality, doesn't mean it's literally the entire personality. And moreover, people keep acting like every "power" a Shard has has to relate somehow to the Intent, like how Batman is literally incapable of operating a vehicle that isn't bat-themed. I disagree. There were once sixteen Shards, and they have their own rules. This includes capabilities that they have. They may more-often-than-not choose to use those powers in a way that aligns with their Intent, but that doesn't mean the inherent abilities themselves must be derived from their Intent. Just one man's opinion.

Who exactly painted, "the battle of twilight falls"?

Sure, that sounds great in theory... except that Raoden, a man who isn't a warrior, a man with only a few days experience in successful AonDor, period, was drawing them two-handed rapid-fire in combat. Clearly, its difficulty is over-rated. It takes him a matter of seconds to throw up a shield, which gives him enough time to Tia a hundred yards away, which certainly gives him enough time to draw the Aon for "go kill that person over there".

I hope not. AonDor is overpowered already and has literally two restrictions. If making it work everywhere is not only possible, but that easy, the story will become incredibly boring.

No, AonDor is region-specific, not any-region-specific. Your idea might not be wholly implausible, but it's not even close to "seems likely".

Wow, you actually understood that? I was posting at like 1:30am my time.

Mmmm.... this is a stretch, and I personally am gonna say no, but it's certainly plausible. We know that any Shard can power any magic system, it just seems to interfere with Sazed's baseline idea of not helping any one side over any other.

Fine. Whatever. I honestly don't care about any of this anymore. Everyone vote for Edgar. Good-bye.

Does the Cognitive Realm look the same on Scadrial as it does on Roshar? Are cognitive aspects still glass spheres? Is it possible the words for the expanses don't have to do with the worlds themselves, so much as they have to do with how the Cognitive Realm appears? I realize this is a massive speculative stretch... but if so, I guess Densities is Sel. For the following reason: That I know of, it's the only world that's discussed the Cognitive Realm much. Brandon has specifically pointed to Densities as one we've seen the Shardworld of, and that while there's a leap of logic, you could still maybe see it. Therefore, I suspect that it's Sel, as the only place where we've heard of the Cognitive realm and heard it described, even if we've never seen it, and based on my speculation that the description of the Expanse refers to how the Cognitive Realm looks there, not based on the world itself. ...This all assuming that Lightsong's deathvision wasn't in the Cognitive Realm.

Yes I have played not any of those video games. Can someone tell me what about Arkham was good, and what about the Justice game was poor?

Gambles isn't proof. No one but Gambles knows that Gambles isn't lying. Even if he did, if Beetle is Spiked, he knows Gambles is a Villager. He'd have a better than 50% chance of guessing right if he just assumed "powerless", possibly even more, since he knows what powers the Spikes have; if they have a lot, it could have been an almost sure thing. That is nothing like "pretty solid" evidence, though I have to admit, if you'd caps locked a few more words in that sentence, you probably would have convinced me. Like I said. I know you've just decided to assume Beetle is human, based on your gut. But you have to understand, that doesn't mean that I also assume it, which means that no, I don't agree I'm deliberately trying to kill a villager. So please stop repeating your accusations that this is what I'm doing. For the last time, stop saying that I'm controlling how anyone votes. I'm not, and I can't. You're being incredibly rude and more than a little mean. The three of us have reached an agreement. I held no knives to any throats, I held no children hostage, I seduced no one. (Well, no one pertinent to the game, anyway). I made an offer, they accepted. I have actually read their posts; perhaps you should read a few of mine. If you have an actual point to make, make it. If you're just going to throw around insults, if you're just going to condescend and act superior, do me a favor. Don't.

No. I've made up my mind. Give me a solid reason to change it and I will. I have told you the holes I see in your logic. If it makes you feel better, I'm committed to voting for him tomorrow. Thank you, yes, that was me. I'm not sure I agree with you. Aether, Clancy and I are three people who seem to trust each other, and what we've got seems to be working. Also, I've accused not one single person of being Spiked just for disagreeing with me. I've even stated that I don't know for sure Beetle is Spiked, I just think that logically he's got a better chance than anyone else I can think of. If you'd like to provide me a reason better than "He just feels suspicious to me," you might well change my mind. I have, however, been accused many times of being Spiked, largely because "Why else would he want to use logical debate to build a coalition in a game whose sole point is that we all vote together?" I'm not sure where you're getting this "everyone who defends them gets accused of being Spiked", but it doesn't match the reality I've seen in this thread. Please feel free to link me to the posts where people (for serious, not in RP) accused anyone of being Spiked, just for defending Beetle or Edgar. I'm not going to point out the flaws in you "Point 2" plan, because you yourself end it by saying that you know it wouldn't work; presumably, then, you see the flaws in it already. Tell me someone we do have conclusive proof against, and I'll change my vote right now. I'll petition everyone in this game to do so, as well. The fact is, no one is saying we've got conclusive proof against Beetle; I've had to point out a half-dozen times that I've never said that. But if we sit around and wait and don't kill anyone until we know for sure, the Spikes will whittle us down to nothing by the time we make a move. ...Psychology isn't the opposite of logic. If you have a real psychological reason to support an argument, I would listen to it. My arguments are logical, and as you point out you're terrible at psychology. And then you don't like my logic because... I have told people that in exchange for them voting like me, I'll vote like them? My logic is fine. I feel like you could stand to have the concept re-defined. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by this phrase of your post. First, your tone is needlessly condescending and antagonistic. Second... um, yes? One vote? In exchange for one vote? What exactly is wrong with that? And what exactly do you mean by the phrase, "To kill a villager?" You're presumably talking about either Beetle or Edgar. If you have proof, not just your personal gut feeling, that one or both of them are Villagers, feel free to share. If not, please don't talk like it's a foregone conclusion. And finally, none of what you say at the end has much to do with my logic. My premise is sound, in that the only arguments I've heard against it are things like, "you want to vote someone dead? You monster! I vote you dead!". So you admit... it's a gut feeling. You simply like Beetle, and you don't like me. You yourself admit that there's absolutely no proof, but you "have to trust someone" so you just picked one. That's fine. But please don't treat other people like they're being "fooled" just because they listen to logical debate, rather than their hearts. I realize you're not asking for our trust. What you are doing, however, is saying, "I trust this guy just because I feel like it," and then acting like other people have made an obvious mistake by trusting me based on logic and reason. No one is being forced to vote for anyone. They understand that the villagers being in chaos is how the Spikes win. They realize that being part of a coalition, that working together and building trust, is more important than some short-term goal. Voting for the person you want, but having them survive because everyone scattered their votes, does not help anyone but the Spiked. You asked why anyone should trust me. It's because it has to start somewhere. If no one leads, then no one can follow. Maybe Beetle isn't Spiked. When we work together to take down Edgar tomorrow, maybe he won't be Spiked, either. But we will be three people who know that we keep our word. We will be a community, we will be a block of people who listen to reason and observe actual clues. We will be stronger for it. The Spiked have one huge advantage over the Villagers; trust. They know who is on their own team and who isn't. We can't know, so we have to trust. Perhaps these two guys will burn me, but I'd rather get burned, and therefore learn that they are Spiked, than stand all by myself waiting for the Spiked to pick us off one-by-one.

here's the tally I've seen so far: Voting for Beetle (7): Darnam, Clancy, Dyring, Aether, Edgar, Mat, Quinn. Voting for Edgar (4): Gambles, Maill, Beetle, and Kukri. No votes yet: Wilson, Porridge. Unless people start changing cast votes, we've got an unassailable majority for Beetle with (I believe?) 13 hours to go. I honestly don't know what any of that means, except that at this point Beetle would need to change a lot of votes, and possibly get the aid of emotional allomancy, to survive. I wish I was much more certain that this was the right thing to do. All I'm certain of is, with the information we've got, it's the best we can do.