Shivertongue

I told you before. You're nuts.

Voidbringer: There's nothing wrong with disliking the Wheel of Time here. I think the downvotes were more because there was no explanation given as for why 213 disliked it. 213: Ah, you're still early in it, then. It does get better, much better, but you have to keep in mind when these books were written. A lot of what comes across as a trope or as cliche were not cliche at the time. I had to keep that in mind when I first read the Belgariad. I admit to being a bit biased - Wheel of Time is what hooked me on fantasy, and I've been devoted to the series for more than half my life. I have this innate desire for people to love it. Malazan, though... I've given my thoughts on it earlier in the thread. I started the second one, but the first was just such a major disappointment, I have basically no desire to continue. You talk about disliking character? I couldn't even muster up dislike for most of Malazan's characters. I simply could not bring myself to care one way or another if any of them lived or died.

How far into the series did you get/are you?

And whyfor is this?

Once again, I disagree. First, the examples I gave are not the only ones that exist; many more do. Second, you have to examine it from each character's perspective. Yes, Perrin ended up a Lord, but that was a result of strong leadership based on decisions he made after that Moment of Failure. And he has had others since. Moments of Failure often lead into Moments of Awesome, but the Failure itself is absolute. Perrin failed to protect twenty-six Two River's boys who had chosen to follow him. He wasn't blamed for it by anyone but himself, but it was a major failure in his mind and informed everything he did since. - Aviendha's was not so much "failing to avoid falling in love" as it was "failing to avoid fate". Or perhaps "failing to keep a promise she had made", regarding Elayne, which was a breach of trust and, in Aviendha's eyes, meant she had toh to Elayne. - With Min, I didn't say stop the results. I said interpreting incorrectly. There is a difference. Again, look at it from the perspective of the character; she wants nothing more than to help Rand. She can't channel, she doesn't know politics, but she has a special gift, and she tries to use it to his advantage as best she can. - Yes, I can count that as a failure. It's specific to each character; Mat wanted to get away, and he wasn't able to. His better nature won out in the end, and he was drawn to his role in the Pattern. And if we got to get into "who's had it worst," let me point out some minor instances Rand has gone through. Not all of them are Moments of Failure - only some of them are - but all of them have been torturous to Rand. * His mother's soul being held hostage by Ba'alzamon. Whether it was an illusion or not, Rand didn't know, and either way, seeing your mother - who has been dead for almost twenty years - in horrible and apparently never-ending pain is not a pleasant thing. * Living through hundreds of alternate realities in which everything goes wrong and ends with your death, and knowledge that the Dark One has apparently been victorious. Many of these lives - all of which were real within the mind, and could have been actual alternate realities - involved the deaths of people he cared about as well. * Finding out that he is the Dragon Reborn. This may not seem like much, but remember that the Dragon Reborn, despite being the prophesised savior, is also the prophesized destroyer, and is feared as much as the Forsaken. Even simply being a male channeler did major damage to his psyche - remember, men who can channel are the stuff of nightmares and frightening stories in Randland. * Being betrayed by the Tower delegation, shoved in a box, seeing Min abused, and being beaten at sunup and sundown for several weeks and developing horrible claustrophobia. The experience is what led to Rand's constant determination to "harden" himself, which has been a descent into darkness I haven't seen done nearly as well or nearly as terrifying in any other book ever. This wasn't made any better when he was taken captive in Far Madding, kept in a tiny cell, and almost sold to the Tower. * Going briefly insane with Callandor against the Seanchan, killing many of his own men and nearly himself in the process. * Being put in an a'dam that was being controlled by Semirhage and one of the Black Ajah and being forced to strangle one of the women he loves and see the fear in her eyes. Those are just a handful. And all of these led in a downward spiral that ended with Rand almost destroying the world. And I'm not even factoring in what he does to himself every time a woman dies for him, nor the terror Padan Fain as caused. So yeah, I disagree with you that nothing compares to being enslaved by the Seanchan. If you want to consider that a failure for Egwene, you can, but she hasn't had another one in eleven books now. Her character growth has been stagnant since she became Amrylin, which is also around the point I started really disliking her. Everything is too easy, she succeeds at whatever plan she comes up with, and for these reasons her story has no tension whatsoever. I could go on, but I'm tired. If you want to know my perspective on Egwene, this post, this post, and this post sum up my thoughts very nicely. The entire thread, in fact, is an interesting debate between Egwene-supporters and Egwene-dislikers, both sides of which present their arguments very well.

The Shattered Plains were normal, once. Then yo momma looked at them.

According to RJ and Brandon, apparently, Gawyn isn't as good as he thinks he is, and has mostly "gotten really lucky" in most of his fights. I'm not sure who would win this time. All three have gotten better since that match, but also keep in mind that Mat is a tactical genius now, and when he fought them the first time, he wasn't at top form. And, in truth, a lot of his victories come about because of luck as well.

The timing on this was just perfect. xD

Oh, no worries, mate. I'm actually glad to know people do, in fact, want an updated logo. Gives me incentive.

As I can figure, one of two things would happen. Either a) Lina would try to fly and fail, and keep trying until Therava ordered her to stop, or The Oath would work on her body to force her to try/send her into fits of pain. I could easily be wrong, though.

An update for the logo is being worked on as we speak. I've had it on my to-do list for a few months now, actually. And chances are the finished product will be so radically different from what we have now that making suggestions based on the current design might be kind of pointless. I'm not sure yet; I never was happy with the rushed job I did on the Coppermind logo, and want to replace it with something made of awesome.

Yo momma so fat, Roshar has to decrease its gravity just so she could walk.

I would disagree, actually. See, in my mind the "Moment of Failure" is an instance where there is no benefit, no turning it to your advantage, and nothing you can do but pick up the pieces and move on. It's unique to the character, deeply personal, and usually results in some form of positive growth for them. Egwene being captured as a damane came close to this, but in the end, it made her stronger in the Power and decidedly worked to her advantage. Contrast with the other Moments of Failure that other characters have endured. Those were just a few examples off the top of my head, and I hope they made sense. Every character, though, has had this moment, some of them before the story began. It's that moment that changes them, usually for the better, and - in my eyes, at least - turns them into a more complete character. My personal philosophy is that learning how to handle failure is one of the most important things a person can learn, and in the end makes them a much stronger person. Maybe I'm being picky when it comes to her, because she's one of my least favorite characters, but Egwene just hasn't had that yet. So not only is she annoyingly arrogant, but she comes across to me as an incomplete character compared to everyone else.

As I understand it, when using a binder, there is no such Oath. Anything you swear is ingrained into you completely, and only a binder can be used to undo it.

Finished Fires of Heaven the other day, much faster than I thought I would. I forgot how these books suck me in, to the point where I can't put them down easily. Beginning to wonder if I should have started this in October or something... Anyway, I've always loved this one. Has some of my favorite scenes in it - as well as the one that started me on the road to disliking Egwene, which I still do. I'm still holding on to the hope that she'll fail at something in AMoL.

I wish I was a slower reader. I'm worried I'll finish with too much time to spare, and then have to wait for the ending...

And remember, kids. Keep it clean.

Putting this behind a spoiler tag, 'cause it is one.

Right... I should get on making those now...

Finished Shadow Rising. Man, I love the ending of this one, particularly the scene where it looks like they're going to have to fight their way through the Shaido, and the Aiel start singing their battle song. Something about the lines of the song interspersed with the action gets my blood pumping and my heart racing as if I was about to go into that battle myself. And the final battle in the Two Rivers... that has to be one of my favorite battle scenes in the entire series. Short, but full of action - and the single line describing Marin al'Vere calmly severing a Trolloc's spinal cord at the neck. Man, if only Egwene had inherited even half of that awesome... I love these books. ^____^ Moving on to Fires of Heaven now. I keep meaning to slow down, but it's difficult...

I know that some of the people participating in this reread are reading through for the first time. All threads contain spoiler warnings, but for something like that I'd request you put up a spoiler tag.

...I want those dice and that art book so much. So, so much... Argh, why does GenCon have to be the week I start my new job? WHY?!

Ingtar is actually what made me suspicious of just about every non-viewpoint character afterward. His revelation as a Darkfriend was such a surprise to me - he was a good guy, how could he be allied with the Shadow?! Who else seems like a good guy but actually serves the Dark One... It added this tension to the entire series that still remains.

Happy six-minutes belated birthday, Windypants!

And the one you love can still be an idiot. I know this from experience. Sometimes you love them despite it, sometimes you love them because of it.