FlashWrogan

I tend to think that we wouldn't see any steady inflation of spheres on Roshar even with the discovery of gemhearts. What we want to consider is that values are assigned currencies in our world are determined either by rarity (gold, gems) or arbitrarily (cash). On Roshar, spheres are a source for soulcasting, and therefore can be used to make just about anything. This makes it a much more valuable currency than any we have seen.

Welcome to the forums! I think we all have different opinions on it, but my original and current opinion is that only people who are shardbearers experience the thrill whether or not they are actually wearing or using them at the time. My reasoning for this is that a shardblade is linked to a specific person until they die or give it up. This isn't exactly the case with shardplate, but we have hints from Dalinar's visions that perhaps you used to be able to summon plate. Most people don't agree with me, but I like the idea .

Looking at it from a philisophical and end-over-means viewpoint, I would say it is pretty clear that what Odium does is worse than Ruin (multiple worlds and shattering Shards aside). Lets say Ruin was able to destroy Scadrial. He would have buried them in ash and mist and killed them with Koloss and Inquisitors. It would have been terrible and bloody, but it would unite the people of that planet (as we saw his attempt to) in their quest for survival and they would have had a sense of unity, community, and possibly fullfillment/satisfaction in the end that they had done their best and stood together. Now lets consider what it would look like if Odium had his way and destroyed Roshar. Let's assume for the moment that he has been unable up to this point for some reason. From what we have seen so far, he would tear the worlds people apart in war and strife. Civilizations would be massacred by others, and the strongest would decimate each other, collapsing. Friends and family might even turn on each other. This sounds like a much worse hell than what Ruin could cause.

Citation? I don't remember reading anything that confirmed this. Sure Syl is supposed to be honorspren, but we don't know for sure if this is actually true and if she is associated with Honor. It does seem like the spren may be of Cultivation, but I have never seen anything that confirms it.

Random question. I was thinking of transcribing the chapter and posting it, just because I find it easier to analyze in text form. Is this a problem with copyright and such, posting an entire section of Brandon's work?

Your thinking of Wheel of Time. Here is the quote:

Spoilers I have a hard time being convinced that the Parshendi are associated with Odium at all, despite Jasnah's theory. This excerpt strengthens this for me. The Parshendi seem no more controlled by Odium than the Alethi are with the Oathpact. Their quest for change and the general's longing to be elsewhere hint this to me.

Already ahead of you with that theory. Though I didn't look at how stormlight was described. There are a number of things in the book hinting at Odium's connection to the storms.

I'm ahead of with that theory. There are a number of things in the book hinting at Odium's affiliation witht he highstorms.

First off, 1000 pages is already pushing it for publishers to go ahead with. Let me tell you, you really wouldn't want a 2000 page book. That would drag on awfully before the climax

Alright, I get it now. Thank you all for being patient with my physics illiteracy

So if I understand you correctly (the acceleration thing confused me a bit), Szeth didn't fall faster than he could have from one Basic Lashing, he simply hit that top speed in a smaller amount of time. So two people jump off of a cliff, one with the gravity pull equal to one Basic Lashing, the second with the gravity pull equal to two Basic Lashings. The second's rate of descent will increase faster but will hit top speed quicker than the first. The end result is that both end up descending at the same rate, but the second will hit the ground first since he hit the top speed first. Do I understand this correctly?

Isn't that the same thing though? Doubled gravity makes the objects weight doubled (but not their mass). An increased gravity pull or weight shouldn't affect the speed of descent.

So there was an event in the prologue, during the fight between Szeth and Gavilar that never made sense to me: So a basic lashing removes the objects attraction towards the planet and shifts that same attraction towards the indicated direction. A 200lb man that lashes himself to the ceiling now weighs -200lbs, or if a scale were attached to the ceiling upside down, he would weigh 200lbs. If he put two Basic Lashings on himself towards the ceiling, he would have twice the weight, and the scale on the ceiling would read 400lbs. My issue with this scenario is the rate of fall. Per my understanding of physics, weight should have no bearing on the rate of fall. The only change we should see is the ability of other objects to affect his momentum, and the force with which he hits other objects. I'll provide an example from HoA (spoilers): So why does Szeth fall twice as fast? Unless there is something I am missing in the way Basic Lashings or the physics of weight work, the only possibility I can find is that Brandon made an error here.

I can see where you are coming from and identify with this sentiment at least a bit. Some of it is a pacing and length issue. I view it from a tension/release perspective. All stories thrive on proper application of tension (conflict) and well-timed release of that tension (resolution). Many of the problems we find in stories are problems with balancing these. I'm going to bring in a few random examples. ASoIaF, from what I have gathered (haven't read past the middle of book 2, but am familiar with the plot), postponed the resolution of conflicts too long and frustrated readers. Something similar happened with WoT. I found myself extremely frustrated with the tv series Lost after a season or two because though there was frequently some resolution to questions and conflicts, there was never enough resolution and they always led to even more questions. On the other hand, plots with not enough tension fall flat and rarely hold our interest. With TWoK, the problem is that the release from tension is postponed just a bit too long to be comfortable for the reader. The result is that the middle of the book drags just a bit, and the climax is all the better because we spent so much time building up to it. As much as TWoK is one of my favorite books of all time, I get tired of Kaladin's self-pity, Dalinar's waffling back and forth between what he should do, and Shallan's moral quandary. It all drags on longer than I would like, but that wait makes the end of the book all the better. Brandon stated that coming books won't be as long, which is a good thing. It means he may have the pacing worked out a little better.

The passage in question: I don't think Honor would glow black light . . .

His publishing order for the cosmere books are as follows Elantris MIstborn 1-3 Warbreaker The Way of Kings Alloy of Law The Emperors Soul This is mostly the order that I read them in, but you can really read them in any order outside of the Mistborn books and it will still all make sense. The other exception is that I would probably read Elantris before Emperor's Soul (there is some realmatic stuff going on in this book and it might be better to save it till later).

I really like these questions, and have never really considered it from that perspective. It made me think of homeostasis systems in the body, and therefore made me equate the conflicts in the cosmere with a body that is way out of whack. All the stories are just the restoring of homeostasis . I would say that Shards never stop doing what they are doing, but depending on the intent that can lead to more "balance" or more chaos. Preservation for instance could keep doing what it does unopposed into eternity and no one would really mind. I imagine we might see similar scenarios with Endowment, Devotion, Honor, and Cultivation. I would say in general that the only balancing there is, is that of other Shards. On the earlier discussion, I would agree with the depiction of Ruin as an intelligent storm. He is an organized chaos-causer and nothing else. He doesn't deal in good and evil, just ruining things.

Welcome to the forums! It is a good point. The only thing that specifically comes to mind for me is the point that Ruin is not inherently evil. He is chaotic and destructive, and most humans would regard him as evil, but he is kind of necessary for change. In the same way hemalurgy isn't innately evil. A person could voluntarily give up their life to give someone their power, thus making the transfer of power marked by sacrifice and honor as opposed to violent. Another point to consider is whether hemalurgy has become less "messy" in the AoL era. Wayne's interaction with the Path suggests that hemalurgic spikes might have a different nature at this point.

Why doesn't he deprive mankind of a fuel source and throw them into chaos? Because chaos is not his intent. He wants discord, hate, and conflict. What better way to do that than to provide an easy way to wage war. If he stopped providing Stormlight, fighting wars would become untenable in Roshar's economy. Nations would retreat and regroup, focus on refitting themselves to function without soulcasters and other fabrials. By providing a source of power, he provides a source of conflict. There is another aspect to consider as well. Odium may be locked in to creating this highstorms in some way that we cannot yet guess. Though there are weaknesses in the comparison, the mists of Preservation come to mind. They were of and from Preservation, yet he was unable to prevent Ruin from using them towards his ends. I realize the reasons for this are not applicable to Roshar, but it shows that such things can happen, so it could be happening for a different reason. As to your crem question, I imagine there is something quite interesting at the source of storms that might answer it. In addition, water of the highstorms scoring at the rock of the land could possibly erode some of that away and carry it with the storm. I imagine this by thinking of Scadrial: (HoA spoilers) I would say that it perhaps comes down to how much of his power he had invested in things before he was splintered. Though we also don't have a good picture at this point of what happens to a shard's unoccupied power when it is splintered. Essentially, I agree with you

I do find it interesting that this is often the case. For me, my username has a lot of history and memories linked to in it, but has no real meaning other than the things it is linked with. However my original name is very important to me and has a meaning that tie in very strongly with my spiritual beliefs

The Way of Kings is very vague on the nature of its magic systems and how they relate to Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. We have a few facts we know about systems such as Windrunning, Soulcasting and others, but we know very little about why they work that way, and how they interact with the shards of Roshar. I have only recently joined the forums and become aware of the Cosmere. As I was rereading The Way of Kings I saw a picture and a theory form in my head that was very different from anything else I had assumed or read before. A lot of it is based on small hints here and there with a lot of conjecture, but it feels right. I want to give credit to Abba Zaba in his "On the current state of Shardblades" here, as his theory was inspiration for mine and I have borrowed some of his ideas. It occurred to me that perhaps the workings of the magic systems on Roshar are significantly more complex than anything we have seen so far. Brandon has been working on this series longer than any other he has published, and it shows. The ecology of the planet is detailed and significantly different from our own, whereas the other worlds that we have seen have ecology similar to our own. It is a logical to then assume that the inner workings of Roshar might not be as simple as one magic system corresponding with each shard with some interaction between (like on Scadrial). What if many, or all of the magic systems involve some kind of interaction between two, or all three Shards? The Theory The highstorms and Stormlight are of Odium. It is his face that Kaladin sees in the highstorm and he has corrupted the hearts of men, the Shardblades, and Shardplate over the years since Honor was shattered. The spren are of cultivation, likely splinters. The Nahel bond, the surgebindings themselves, and originally the Shardblades and Shardplate are of Honor. Odium: Proving his link with the highstorms Death cries “Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” —Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments. The link between my theory and this death cry is tenuous. I would guess that the wall of black, white and red might be the desolation. The reference to a wall may be linked to a stormwall. “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” —Collected: Chachanan, 1173, 84 seconds pre-death. Subject: a cutpurse with the wasting sickness, of partial Iriali descent. This, to me, says that Honor, Cultivation, and Odium ruled and now Odium reigns (being referred to as the Broken One simply because he has a more evil nature than other shards). While this doesn't have a direct bearing on our discussion, it got me thinking. We have had the statement of Odium reigning corroborated by the face in the sky. We know Tanavast/Almighty/Honor is "dead" by his own statement. We also know that there is some sort of consciousness linked with the highstorms that is also linked with Stormlight. It got me wondering what the source of the storms, Stormlight, and that face actually is. It wouldn't make sense for it to be Honor/Tanavast because he is splintered and dead and wouldn't be able to talk to Kaladin. Jezrien was someone I considered, but it seems illogical that he could be the source of Stormlight, which must be the "power of creation" channeled through one of the Shards like other magic system. Cultivation is a possibility, but lets set that aside for now, as the other evidence hints toward Odium. “Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us.” —Dated Palahakev, 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. Subject: a Thaylen sailor. This associates the storm with a conflict and someone, presumably Odium, winning. “They named it the Final Desolation, but they lied. Our gods lied. Oh, how they lied. The Everstorm comes. I hear its whispers, see its stormwall, know its heart.” —Tanatanes 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. An Azish itinerant worker. Sample of particular note. The Desolations are again associated with with a storm and stormwall. True this could simply be because storms are a big part of their culture and a sudden and devastating war could well be described that way, but the association could also be because Odium actually is the storm. Jasnah's notes “Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.” —Perhaps the oldest surviving original source mentioning the city, requoted in The Vavibrar, line 1804. What I wouldn’t give for a way to translate the Dawnchant. This is actually the source inspiration of this theory. The wording "nearest to Honor" suggests that the city could not be placed where Honor actually was. There could be many reasons for this, but the one that struck me was that Honor perhaps "existed" in a place beyond the western coast of the continent, farthest from the source of the storms. This suggests that Honor was far removed from the source of storms, perhaps because Odium is that source? As an interesting tangent, this suggests that Urithiru is in Shinovar. It seems that the Shin are very honorable, as we see from Szeth, which works along these lines. “Like a highstorm, regular in their coming, yet always unexpected.” —The word Desolation is used twice in reference to their appearances. See pages 57, 59, and 64 of Tales by Hearthlight. Another connection between highstorms and Desolations. An important piece of text to consider in concern to this theory is Kaladin's two interactions with the face in the sky: This clearly links the source of Stormlight with the face. Other things that stood out to me in support of my theory is the fact that this face is smiling and black. What reason would Jezrien, Honor, or Cultivation have to smile at Kaladin at this point (if it is indeed focused on Kaladin)? If that face is Odium's, he could be smiling at Kaladin's predicament and pain. My initial interpretation of this interaction was a benevolent one. I assumed it was either Jezrien or Cultivation trying to communicate with Kaladin and give him information. However on reanalysis, there is nothing that really suggests whether this entity is benevolent or malevolent. It could be that this is Odium speaking, addressing someone who has trespassed on his domain. The biggest problem with this is that Odium refers to himself in the third person, but that is not outside the realm of possibility. This is another connection between highstorms and Desolations. Moving on to some conjecture. From these quotes and assumptions we have concluded that Odium reigns, washing over the land with power and Stormlight every few days. He has exhorted his influence over mankind in this way bit by bit over the years. He has corrupted mens hearts and led them to wars as well as corrupted the Shardplate and Shardblades. I will get into this in more detail later. Now I know that some think that it isn't plausible for Odium's power to fuel Honor's Surgebinding, but we have seen an instance where a Shard's power was used against a Shard's intent: (HoA spoiler) Cultivation: Proving her connection with spren The spren, including those that bond to create surgebinding, never seemed directly linked to Honor to me. I never accepted Syl naming herself as honorspren as being factually accurate. The post below explains it quite well. I got to thinking in my potential scenario with Honor's source being in the west and Odium's source being in the east with the source of storms about how sprain interact. Why are there no spren in Shinovar? The easy answer is that spren are of change and there isn't much in the way of change in Shinovar. There is the possibility that spren are separate from Honor and that is mixed in with their absence from Shinovar. I think the ten kind of spren that produce surgebinding each have their own name (such as protectionspren or truthspren) and become "Honorspren" as it were, since they are using Honor's Nahel bond. I really have no solid evidence for this part of my theory, it was just general feelings and conjecture. It makes logical sense that if Odium has a direct involvement in surgebinding and fabrials, that Cultivation has a part too. Honor Here it is mostly filling in the blanks and making assumptions. Honor being shattered, it is logical that its part in today's magic is less cohesive, and may have deteriorated. I believe that the Nahel bond and Surgebinding itself is specifically of Honor. My theory also hints at a possible explanation for Szeth's surgebinding. If Shinovar is where Urithiru, the home of the lost Radiants, is, then it is certainly possible that knowledge and technology left there led to Shin warriors being able to Surgebind and provided at least one Shardblade. The oaths that Szeth is bound to as Truthless make me feel that Shinovar's belief system is very strongly rooted in honor, but that perhaps their beliefs have decayed or been corrupted over time. Szeth's oaths have a ring of the idea of honor, but not the true intent behind it. I also propose that Sharplate and Shardblades were originally of Honor: Shardplate/Shardblades Abba Zaba is the one who started me thinking on this and he can explain it better than me: My theory here is only slightly divergent. My guess is that the plate and blades are the same physical objects that the Radiants abandoned, but they changed when the oaths were no longer associated with the shards. Odium may well have had a part in changing and corrupting the shards. I think the Thrill is also linked to the current state of shards. We only have confirmation that Dalinar, Adolin, and Sadeas experience the Thrill. While Dalinar says that it is something that many/most men experience, he also says that people didn't talk about it, as it was private. It is not too much of a stretch to guess that only shardbearers experience the Thrill. If the subject is such a Taboo to talk about, highprinces wouldn't tend to talk to their inferiors about such a thing and would lead to misconceptions. The way to fight Odium is to undo his corruption of men and shards and unite against him. Seems pretty self evident . Summary I can imagine some of the objections that people may have. Highstorms are the driving form of water and nutrition for the plants of most of Roshar. The storms pretty much drive the ecology of Roshar, so how can they be from Odium? I envision that before Odium came to Roshar, the world looked a lot more like Shinovar or Earth. Then Odium arrived with his Desolations and highstorms, devastating both the people and the ecology of the world. While the people of Roshar were given respite from the Desolations, the highstorms stripped at the land mercilessly. Dirt was stripped away and plants were torn out by the roots. Many plants that weren't uprooted couldn't survive without proper soil cover. The plant life evolved to withstand the highstorms and collect the nutritious rainwater. The extra nutrition in highstorms makes sense, as these storms pull up dirt and rocks across the land and blow them somewhere else. The release of Stormlight in the storms is a byproduct of the huge release of power that Odium has to give to push the highstorm across the land (there may be more bound up in this, perhaps Stormlight is also how Odium corrupts? I'm iffy on that though). Another small point in my favor is that Voidbringers are supposed to be able to retain Stormlight perfectly, which would make complete sense if both are associated with Odium. Cultivation is ever-present in landscape, changing and growing the ecology to adapt to Odium's influence (hence change and sprain). And Honor? Honor is dead, splintered apart. We see remnants of him in a forgotten magic system (windrunning, soulcasting, and possibly Memory) and ancient powerful artifacts (shards). We see his Nahel bond present with Syl, and we see his last words echoing through time to Dalinar.

It is in Szeth's interlude after part one: Of note here is that he seems to indicate that this effect is something specific to only his blade. This may mean that other blades turn your eyes light permanently, or not at all. Also of note is Dalinar's flashback of the Radiants abandoning their plate and blades. The Alethi-looking man still has unnaturally light eyes after he has abandoned his shards. I don't buy that present-day plate is entirely different than Radiant-day plate. It opens up too many questions. Where did all the plate of old go to? Where did mankind get the shards that they have today? Are they fundamentally different? I think it is much more plausible that the plate that the Radiants used have diffused throughout today's world and have changed in some way by Odium's influence, Honor's absence, or absence of the oaths.

I like your thoughts, though I'm not sure I can completely buy into it yet. I had two thoughts How could Szeth have hijacked Honor's system? We don't have the info needed to come up with a good hypothesis, but this seems key to buying into this theory. As far as we know so far, gaining access to Windrunning at the very least is bound up in acting with some kind of honor/Honor. I just can't visualize how this could be done. I've always thought that we have seen a kind of decay in the magic system since the days of the Knights Radiant. We know the shardplate and shardblades have changed, it stands to reason that the way Surgebinding can be accessed may have changed/evolved/decayed. I don't think it is too much of a stretch to say that Szeth could access Honor's magic when he is being very honorable but very disHonorable.

My username has its origin in the fourth grade, which was about 15 years ago for me. My two friends and I came up with imaginary characters and wrote humorous, dialogue-based short stories for fun. Flash Wrogan was the name I came up with for my imaginary character (we each had a character that represented us). I thought the word flash was cool at the time, and Wrogan came from a combination of dragon and wolf, which were just about the coolest things in the world to a 9 year old boy. I've used it as an online username ever since.