IronBars

Its not that i don't like him, i just don't like him to the level others do. Im still surprised by how much of a cult following he has being honest. People seem to gloss over a lot of his ineptitudes and see him for something he isn't in my opinion. I guess its similiar to lift in the sense i cant understand why some people dislike her so much. Regards the post there i did mean at the time the diagram was written though, should of made that clearer.

Ok i have no problem people expressing an opinion, if i did i would not of posted here in the first place, most people i know in real life don't read much so came here to discuss the book because no one to discuss it with, At no point in this thread did i intend to be argumentative or antagonistic to anyone, im guessing its because we are from different places, and also the fact that its hard to infer whether or not a person is being a certain way in txt, I shared an opinion of OB as i seen it, alot of people agree with me, alot dont, if someone picks a particular point i discuss it with them, if somehow that came across as arguing then i apologise but barring one place i dont see where that occured and i addressed that above. @Bort Well, you do start off by missing pretty much all of the foreshadowing about Teft. From your OP: Again im glad you enjoyed the book, i at no point said it was a bad book, i said it was an ok book, but just for me personally too much didnt make as much sense/add up as it should of. Not sure why that went like that and cant fix it on phone.

Ok i have no problem people expressing an opinion, if i did i would not of posted here in the first place, most people i know in real life don't read much so came here to discuss the book because no one to discuss it with, At no point in this thread did i intend to be argumentative or antagonistic to anyone, im guessing its because we are from different places, and also the fact that its hard to infer whether or not a person is being a certain way in txt, I shared an opinion of OB as i seen it, alot of people agree with me, alot dont, if someone picks a particular point i discuss it with them, if somehow that came across as arguing then i apologise but barring one place i dont see where that occured and i addressed that above.

That is a good point about shallan, to me personally, i just would of preferred if she embraced it and moved forward it was a good opportunity to go in that direction and made sense if she went that way instead she regressed which by what you said there seems more plausible because the effect of not being ready, but makes more sense to me if can only say an ideal/truth if mean/embrace it.

What i said is actually how the author of that series describes the books himself in the foreword of his first book, so in no way shape or form was it meaning as an insult. I didnt mention you in the changing of opinion thing. Read borts and alterand and you should see what i mean

Only seen this now and wasnt directed as an insult just poor wording on part, if you were offended or insulted i apologise. I understand how you feel there becausde its siniliar to how i stated feeling awhile ago with people

If you noticed, all iv done is share my opinion on it, anyone who said they loved the book i said that was fine, it was great etc that they did, i just said why i didnt, personnally i found people to be trying to change my opinion on it rather then listening to why i felt how i did and justify the authors choices rather theb have an actual opinion of there own. The perfect example to this is my thoughts in tefts addiction, and dalinar, everything i said i ended with imo or in my opinion, The perfect example of this being alderant and bort. I wss a member of this site a long time ago, i recall why i left now, say something against the praise sanderson mantra and basically get attacked and insulted,

Ok i have a few people to reply to here so bare with me, This is probably one the mosy conceited things iv ever read on any forum from someone.and i actually don't think you have read this entire thread after it, I'd ask you to pleass list what i "missed" in your opinion and show instances from the thread that prove i missed them, Also expecting everyone to be on the same page as you regards a book is ridiculous. This is fine, my point was the level of addiction shown in OB doesnt match up with the moments of foreshadowing seen in tWoK and WoR, what we see in those books is hits toward an alcohol/gambling addiction, not what in my opinion is the equivalent of a meth/heroin addiction, i say this because as i said before the state we see teft in has more parallels with someone addicted to those drugs then as a different poster mentioned something like canabis. In the WoR, teft had access to spheres, had opportunities to rob spheres even had opportunities to loot the dead for spheres, So that would of been more an indication of foreshadowing the levels of addiction seen in OB, That is my opinion. Answered this above i think. Ok with this, the main thing i think your noticing is the fact im using my phone to post not a laptop, so more difficult to proof read posts to see how they come across. The very first person who replied to my original post made a good point about one of my points, which i said she was right straght away and further down when was mentioned again i addressed that i no longer seen it that way, so what your saying there is incorrect. Also im not sure where in the world you are from or anyone else for that matter so maybe we just have different ways of talking leading you to believe something that is not the case. I dealt with this point above, i think. Ok i broke point 3 into 2 sections. Firstly let me say i find the way in which your speaking here insulting and an attempt at belittling both me and my opinion. My opinion of the book and yours do not have to be the same, You make a lot of assumptions here based on nothing substantial, i gave my opinion on one book and from this brief thing you assume this and that, just because my opinion doesnt match yours on one thing ie OB, doesnt mean you can assume what you just did. Someone keeps mentioning malazan like its the only other book iv ever read, but for this il mention it, the MBoTF is one my favourite series and is a very very subtle series, using that as an example to answer your question about not liking subtety. Here again you it comes across like trying to insult me, "didnt comprehend the devolopment" Again i point out our opinions dont need to match i have said numerous times for the length of this novel the character progression was minimal, story progression was also minimal, and i pointed out why, people have pointed out how they thought the opposite in every instance i said that was fine or some variation of that. Im not trying to push my opinion on others im just stating mine, and as people state theirs i just repeat mine, what iv noticed is alot of people seem to justify the choices of the author and just back them up rather then see what im saying. You seem to fall into that catagory. I also addressed this at the time. I said once shallan says a truth it should mean she embraces that truth......which doesn't happen. The plot to OB was glacial up until book 5, it didnt build in plodded in my opinion. The stories in malazan alternate approx every 2 books so you see characters every 2 books and a different set the other ones, gardens of the moon was wrote maybe 10 years before its sequel hes writing style changed vastly from that point onwards. Malazan drops you in the middle of things and you either sink or swim, its a love it or hate it series. I find it very amusing you insinute i didnt like OB because of subtety when malazan is prob one the most subtle book series ever wrote. You dont see me assuming you dont like subtety because of it or claiming you couldnt "comprehend" the series based on your post sharing an opinion on it though.

All i can say to this is lol

MBoTF is too complicated for alot of people, most give up on book 3/4 that do give up

Iv read tWoK and WoR numerous times, as far as i recall there was one abstract thing mentioned here by someone else that i didnt recall so not sure what your on about

Look at teft missing time, waking up not knowing where he is, drool coming out his mouth all signs of a strong highly addictive drug, which cannabis is not and meth/cocaine is, so paralleled it. Rightly or wrongly everyone equated firemoss to a drug on earth, Incorrect, in that instance the man you become is forged from who you were, in dalinars case its forged from what he was made. Big difference. No it isnt you, its a version of you that would never exist without a specfic set of circunstances and if it didnt happen its not who you would be therefore it is a lie/fake however you wanna put, you cant become someone else entirely without knowing who you are. Exactly so how teft is in WoR doesnt stack up with how he is in OB, the foreshadowing we see isnt to the degree of addict he ends up being, hence it is out the blue as such, thats all im saying.

How many books of malazan you read ? Read them again Ye missed alot

Fewer then shallen chapters with identity crisis or bottling of the truth, in OB And the story progressed, kaladin grew as a person grew into what he could do etc

Moash is a very realistic character, vengence for wrongs perseved or real has been one the driving forces for as long as time itself. Book 5 was rushed, the rest dragged and alot was unnessasry. You invented fire moss ? As i said previously if your addicted to a drug to the point your selling your clothes to feed your habit then you are not ligbtly addicted to a drug you are heavily addicted to it, now yes people behave differently but there is more in common between individual addicts then differences at that point.

Ok this is just wrong. Iv said it numerous times for a 600 page book, the story contained within OB would be fine, boring, but fine, for a 1233 its not. Your meant to have expectations going into reading book, your expectations not being met concerning the story or character arcs happens lots in books but the direction they go surprise you and you see how it got there, you see why makes sense etc, this is not the case with OB. The whole OB book fell flat. The problem with OB is its a 600 page book with 633 pages of filler that did nothing for the story. tWoK and WoR while large progressed the story and progressed character arcs, and while could of been trimmed down didnt have over 50% filler in the books. People don't agree its fine, but people just dont seem to agree just because its sanderson which is wrong, hes your favourite author - great - that doesnt mean everything he touches is gold.

Ok that is completly irrelevant. It actually does. He forged himself into that man, because and only because he had the menories taken away. If they werent taken away he wouldnt be that person.. Again, he wouldnt of been that man without the memories being taken. What your saying is basically if they found hitler today, and he spent the last 70 years working with disadvantaged kids in argentina it makes up for what he did, no it doesn't. He still is who he was and deserves to be punished for who he was regardless of who he became. Dalinar when regained his memories nearly broke him - kaladin who is sworn to uphold honour, protect the weak etc and szeth, sword to obey the law etc can not turn around and be ok with who dalinar was regardless of who he became (because and only because his memories were taken. If you liked the book thats great.

Ok dalinar didnt change he became someone else because what made him the other person was taken away. That is completely unrelated to what you just said there, there not even similiar. So the dalinar we seen in tWoK and WoR, is infact a lie. Ok, brandon seems to struggle to explain this himself, and imo it still doesnt make sense to do what he did, it would of made more sense to swear to kaladin then dalinar, And ok il get over he swearing when didnt know dalinar, but if Szeth and indeed kaladin except what dalinar was and what he really did (as appears so at the end of OB) then that goes against who they are and is bs. Your point with the radiants is fine, but to sum up thats why they had the ideals to guide them, the point of the radiants was to fight what they thought were the voidbringers so yes they would stay out of countries figbting, unless to step in when goes to far imo. I say that because of the effects the firemoss has on the people we see use it, Opium (where heroin comes from) was also used to treat pain in the past and its where we get morphine from

I didnt take it that way, but you might be correct. Syl was also pushing kaladin into speaking the 4th ideal. Besides being pushed shouldnt make the fact you need to mean it embrace it for it to work any less true. Firemoss is def not the equivalent of cannabis. I answered that in the post above, teft had access to spheres he never tried rob them etc the foreshadowing didnt foreshadow what we see in OB. Personally i think its because it was time to change from the previous 2 books, and instead it was just the same. Also to much didnt add up in the story, to much didnt make sense from everything before. Was just a poor installment.

They only set the powers aside after learning they were the actual "voidbringers" though, while previous knowledge they could destroy roshar like there previous planet it didnt make them surrender there powers til the voidbringer truth. Its not enough to say the words, you have to mean them, we see this will kaladin and the 4th ideal he couldnt speak the 4th ideal because he couldnt really mean it. Shallen should of been the same with her 4th ideal/truth, to say it you have to embrace it, mean it, live it etc, she did the opposite so she either shouldnt be on the 4th ideal stage or she can lie and advance through the ideals that way. Thats how i see it, if thats not the case then was no need for her to say the 4th ideal/truth atal......

Ok first off drug addiction is not a mental health issue at least not in the way you implied it there. Drug addiction can be seen as a mental health issue because being an addict changes the responce of the brain, it is not a mental health issue like depression, sads, schizophrenia are which seems to be how you implied it. Also while on that topic saying "everyone experiences mental health issues different" to everyone that questions something to do with the issue is while true a cop out. I say this because while its true everyone does experience it different there is also parallels and simularities between everyone so, saying that "everyone experiences it different" is not a strong enough reason to stand on its own. There are no highly functional meth/heroine addicts, which is what firemoss is the equivalent of at least in my mind. There are levels to addiction, going missing for a day or 2, not being trusted with money is more and indication of alcohol or gambling addiction. The level of addiction we see in OB, is far beyond that, teft is at the point hes selling his clothes for the drug. Foreshadowing of that would of been, more along the lines of teft not eating, losing weight, borrowing money (spheres) trying to rob money (spheres) looting the dead, being shaky/jittery, no energy tired etc etc, so again no it was not foreshadowed, something was foreshadowed but not the level of addiction seen in OB, im not sure how anyone can dispute that. Thats a very loose connection, that i admit i dont recall myself, but unless its the very next sentence i dont think it counts as foreshadowing and if only seen it when looked for it or on your however many re reads that cant really be counted as foreshadowing imo

Renarin is the wildcard in the diagram because he was so uninportant and uninpressive the diagram didnt predict him having much of a role, the fact he bonded a corrupted spren was unseen, therefore what he does or doesnt do from there makes him the wildcard

You must not have much experience with drug addiction, someone who is that severely addicted to a drug, leaves alot more signs then, going missing for a day or 2 or saying they cant be trusted with money, so no the level of addiction shown in OB, was not foreshadowed, saying it was is just silly

I don't mind that kaladin didn't swear the fourth ideal, what i didnt like is for this book, kaladin was relegated to a side note or a support act, which ever way you want to say it, in the first 2 books he was by far the best character so for that to happen in this book in favour of much duller characters was frustrating. I couldnt disagree more with this being honest, Teft being a crack head wasn't foreshadowed, and as i said dalinars flash backs were good but everyone being cool with him being a blood thirsty tyrant made no sense. If you loved the book thats a good thing, i just cant say i do when the story/character arcs etc could of been done in half the pages, and when so much that happened is just not believable and more then roughly half the book was filler or fillers sake. Each to there own.

My point with the lack of character progression/development is simply this, for a 1233 page novel the "progression/devolopement of the characters could of been done in 150/200 pages, with ease, thats 10% of the book, so in OB there is little to no character devolopments, shallen is the same person as in WoR and instesd of resolving some of her issues after swearing the 4th ideal of the lightweavers, her issues deepened, which makes little sense, her entire arc in OB was repetitive, and its not believeable that she can just keep lucking out with everything she does, she has no real skills, she comes across as very unintelligent even though she is meant to come across as very intelligent, and she just lucks out of situations for 3 books now. The whole love triangle thing with adolin/kaladin shouldnt even of existed, it was just stupid. Kaladin was utterly wasted in this book. As with kaladin adolin was wasted in this book. Since WoR had been looking forward to seeing what happened after adolin killed sadeas, how adolin reacted and dealt with it, how adolins family reacted the repurcussions etc. Instead we got nothing.......adolin didnt care dalinar didnt care shallan thought was great etc it was just nonsense how was done in my opinion. I didnt mention Amaram in my origianal post but i couldnt agree more with everything you said. I also liked Szeth in the book, my point with him was it made no sense for him to swear the 3rd ideal of the skybreakers based on dalinar when he didnt know him, someone said he swore it because dalinars reputation, im not sure which reputatiion that is though, the one where dalinar is a bloodthirsty tyrant or the one where hes gone mad, either way makes no sense, and if Szeth doesnt react to the revelations about dalinar in book 4 then that is ridiculous. Also made no sense for kaladin to be cool with Szeth all of a sudden either. And as with Szeth if kaladin is ok with the revelations about dalinar it would be ridiculous There wasnt enough bridge 4 viewpoints for me, i liked them all except the one where teft is suddenly out the blue a crack head, Dalinars flashbacks were good, just makes no sense the stormfather would choose him after seeing them. What we saw in tWoK and WoR of dalinar was a lie. Id actually go so far as to say if Szeth and kaladin dont react badly to the revelations about dalinar and for sometime leave him in book 4 i will stop reading the SA because from everything we know of those two there should be a big reaction from both, and it just wouldnt make sense or be believable to think they be ok with it, My main issue with OB is as i said before, the story didnt progress and the characters didnt progress, the story could of been cut to 400 pages the character arcs progression could of been done in 150/200, thats 600 page book, we got a 1233 page book, the rest (half the book) was just filler for the sake of bulking the book out. OB is actually my least favourite sanderson book, and seems SA is going downhill, tWoK = 5/5, WoR =4.5/5, OB = 3/5, If people don't agree thats fine its just my opinion