IronBars

See this is exactly what i mean, you made my point peferctly. You do the same as Calderas alot as well. Ye cut under someones point with a throw away comment defending what the author did, with out any actual arguement to back it up, then vanish, until ye see something else ye take exception to and repeat the process. Ye seem popular on here, but ye're opinions aren't any more valid then mine or anyone elses. If comment then back up your comment dont just randomly appear cut under someones opinion and vanish til do the same again. If i could get downvotes for a post id prob have 50 for this but its how it seems to me and im sure others as well.

My point wasnt the fanboy thing, it was the fact all he does it cut under peoples opinions by justifying the choices of the author, which isnt actually a valid point against anyone who says something not in praise of OB thats just my opinion though. I did apologise several times so my intent wasnt to cause an arguement or any such I do enjoy most of brandons books by the way, just some act like he is infallible and just defend what happened within OB rather then have there own actual opinion.

It didnt sound harsh, but how it comes across is you shift your arguement, first your arguement was he never said that about SA, it was the cosmere and tried imply i thought random things from other of his works would happen. Then shifted to how it is a complete stand alone volume. I dont mean this in an offensive way so dont take it that way, and im sorry if anyone takes it badly but i don't know another wording of this to use - but you seem like the biggest fanboy ever. Every post in this thread iv seen from you is jusfifying why sanderson was right to do this or that and you don't seem to have any arguments against what i or others say besides justfying what actually was in OB. At least thats the impression i get. Again apologies if it gives offence its probably poor wording on my part but its how it at lesst seems to be. Again sorry. @Vissy i said at the very start OB was an ok book, just not good/great, to me personally it just has alot of shortcomings,

I didn't mind Dalinars flash back sequence, my only issue with it as i said before is to me, it revealed the dalinar we new as a lie/fake/sham whichever word best describes him. Reason being he would never of been that person without his memories etc being taken away, also how he spent months (years?) being unable to deal with it until said memories etc were taken and then to suddenly be able to accept them in a matter of days (weeks) seemed a little cheap so to speak. Added to that the whole Szeth swearing his 3rd ideal to him making no sense and it was all a little suspect in my opinion. What he said isnt open to interpretation really, so i dont see how you can try justify it like that. He said it had to be able to stand alone and it cant, he failed to do the exact thing he said he wouldn't do due to learning from other authors, im not sure how you can dispute that.

Not sure how to link a post so il copy and paste it. B&N Reads BROWSE THE COSMERE SHOW Brandon Sanderson Discusses the Past and Future of the Stormlight Archive by Aidan Moher/ November 15, 2017 at 2:30 pm Share Oathbringer (Stormlight Archive Series #3) Hardcover$23.20 | $34.99 Add to Bag See All Formats & Editions › Brandon Sanderson’s fans have come to expect big things with each new novel he releases. Like, literally big things: his latest, Oathbringer, the third volume of the Stormlight Archive, clocks in an an astounding 1,200 pages. More astounding: not a one of them is wasted. Sanderson rose to popularity on the back of his admirable work completing Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Timeseries after Jordan’s passing in 2007, and has since become known as the premier American author of big, fat epic fantasy novels. Fans love the intricacy of his worlds; the casts of thousands that fill his pages; his layered, complex magic systems; and his plots, which twist and weave and leave you a little breathless. I recent caught up with the author to chat about Oathbringer, the intersection of religion and fantasy, what it’s like to write epic fantasy in 2017, and what’s next for the Stormlight Archive. “I feel like one of the big dangers for epic fantasy is growing so large you stop being able to tell a complete story in each volume,” Sanderson said, referencing the latest, largest volume in his already huge Stormlight Archive. However, he said, he has an advantage over forbears like Robert Jordan and George R.R. Martin—he’s seen what they did, and where they went wrong. “When [readers] have to wait on new installments, and they’re not each coming to a satisfying conclusion, there’s this sense of being lost at sea. Something feels off. At least, it felt off to me during those middle volumes of Robert Jordan’s series,” he said. While he doesn’t think it affected the overall quality of Wheel of Time, he saw it as a warning sign when he began work on his own ambitious multi-volume epic. He asked himself: “Is there something you can do about that, having seen how it’s gone for authors in the past?” A big story is just a bunch of little stories connected in interesting ways. When I write a Stormlight Archive book, I plot each book like I would plot a trilogy. So, between the covers of Oathbringer is an entire trilogy.” Eh so ya....didnt expect that to post like that sorry Anyway point is he said it for SA not the cosmere like you implied

If your right lets hope the hunt isnt like his headlong rush to save them at the end of WoR. However i dont have the book in front of me but didnt kaladin rush off to drehy and skar then just back to uirithru at the end of OB? If thats the case what you said seems less likely

I remenber you from my last time here maxel, and remember your a big adolin fan. Also recall you were one of the people who disliked how renarin was a radiant as well, least at the start, dunno if you changed your mind on that. My point with shadesmar was at its heart it was a premise to keep kaladin from dalinar. Im not saying other things didnt happen there as you allude to with adolin there. However they didnt need to spend that long in shadesmar for that particular story. So in my opinion while other things happened there the real reason was to keep kaladin from dalinar. If you disagree thats fine thats just how i see it. I have seen nothing textually related that indicates adolin meets any of the prerequisite criteria to become a KR. And given he doesn't get a back story it indicates nothing significant happened him we didnt see either, at least in my opinion. Regards lift we will see a backstory for her so im sure her story of how shes deserving will come to light. regards renarin id say same as above although i dont see him deserving glys in any way shape or form, if hes story consists of his dad didnt love him enough i wouldnt be surprised. Renarin proves himself more of a hindrance then a help most the time. i also dont agree elhokar deserved to me a knights radiant. Szeth is in my opinion one the most deserving to be a knight radiant and his order is perfect for him. I said in a diff post that if he revives the blade he will be bonded to it, so i know if he revives it the spren wont leave, i just think the spren leaving be a better story. This is a forum where opinions are meant to be shared. I know thats not what the text is telling us happened, i was just explaining how i feel shallans character didnt devolop/evolve/progress because of the direction it went, and shallans story became an object lesson in repetiveness and tedium. It was an unnecessary inclusion based on one or two interactions and looked and seemed fake, put there for no real reason. I don't mind adolin as a character, so its not that i dislike him. And i dont want him not to be a KR just because hes a kholin. After WoR there was alot of potential for adolins character, given the contents of OB, i think its safe to say that will most likely not be realised. @Prelude alot of people seem to share our view on OB, maybe even the majority of people, most arguements for how perfect OB is just seem to want to justify and applaud every choice, decision, sanderson himself made just because it is sanderson. I believe it was Sanderson who said each entry in the series while part of an bigger story needed to a self contained story in its own right, or something to that effect, and OB wasnt, at least in my opinion.

Should of is just how i talk sorry, i know its not grammatically correct, but some times how i talk bleeds in to how i write. I take what your saying, thats how i read it the first time, but when thought of it earlier i reread the passage and seems to be not enough of a validation. I say that because in most cases when someone is rendered incapacitated like that the automatic responce is to cling to what you know, thats why i mentioned the second ideal he swore " i will protect those who can not protect themselves" no one at that point needs more protection then elhokar, well maybe his son but same thing. He sat there, saw what was gonna happen, and did nothing. So he didnt fail to protect him, he didnt try to. Saying hes brain was broken is going a little far as well, at least i think it is, he just didnt know how to act when two sets of friends fought and wanted to protect both sets. As it happens i think hes 4th ideal has to be something that allows him to act in moments like that. And thats why couldnt speak it in shadesmar.

I just thought of this so hoping someone here can answer, in the scene where kaladin and the royal guard are fleeing the palace in kholinar, and kaladin is rendered unable to act when the royal guard face the parshmen he became friendly with. Didnt he basically let elhokar die ? All the other combatants are armed, fighting eachother, elhokar is on his knees, child in hand, moash walks up, kaladin sees him walk up, sees he is intent on killing elhokar, and just sits there. And not only that syl never says anything about it either yet when was gonna let moash kill him before she went so far as to break the bond nearly. He fought mosh and graves in the end and spoke the third ideal so saying it was because it was moash isnt an answer, and the fact syl didnt react atal in anyway seems strange. I know circumstances are different but at the end of the day his inability to decide what to do between the royal guard and the parshman shouldnt of stopped him saving elhokar because of the second ideal "i will protect those who can not protect themselves" and at that point elhokar definetly couldnt protect himself nor could he protect his son (who could easily of gotten hurt or killed by design or accident) I dont see how his confusion on how to act between the royal guard and the parshmen extended to elhokar and his son. That part should of been clear.

At least some of the OB subforun seems to be pre release so dont see that as 100% accurate, was just how it seemed anyway, i dunno maybe im wrong, just while OB is the most divisive to me didnt seem to generate as much activity as others SA books

Maybe just seems that way to me so since OB is out awhile, i havent been on here (before the other day) since WoR was 6 months old id say

After the way of kings and after WoR the forum for those books at the time seemed busier if thats the right word

@Bort I didnt mean teft wasnt a capable fighter, just that his main strength at least to me seemed to be as a trainer. Im not sure about military ranks being honest, just see windrunners as more round table then strict militaristic in nature. Thats just a feeling i get though i have nothing to support that. Our views on OB seem to be in complete contrast to eachother alright even our view on other entries in SA, from what iv seen OB is the most divisive book so far though, alot feel the same/similiar to how i do, and alot seem to feel the same/similiar to how you do. That said i dont recall tWoK or WoR being that divisive, also unless im mistaken OB has generated the least debate/theories on here as well.

You might be right, i just dont see him in a warrior role, and see him as more a trainer of lesser radiants and squires, I imagine the windrunners more as like king arthurs knights of the round table then, the usual military command structure of general/colonel/sergent/ etc. Where as equals the strengths of each windrunner is given to oversee a certain area.

Agree with all the reasons there. Teft will find it hard enough with having bridge 13 as squires without leadership responsibility within the windrunners. i see teft more as a trainer then warrior anyway

Most likely because its not actually vasher she is hunting

@Walkerxes @Vissy teft being secondary to kaladin is more because of there history in bridge 4 though i think. If kaladin and teft didnt know eachother i dont think teft would automatically be secondary to kaladin. The skybreakers also seem hierarchical. As for the possibilty of adolin being a edgedancer, i imagin each order had to have a leader, whether that leader was decided by power, vote or some other means is anyones guess. Besides someone on the second ideal being lesser then someone on say there 4th ideal of course. @Walkerxes If he awakens the blade, he would auto bond the spren i think since that is how she was reawakened in the first place although ideally he awakens the spren and she leaves so he doesn't become a KR By left out i meant the way everyone was suddenly a KR, evolving so to speak, and he wasn't.

I'm not saying shallan will count as a kholin radiant, just meant if adolin becomes one that will be 5 radiants with a kholin last name, 6 if elhokar lived, only navani missing, seems just to much kholin, Esp when there is no other light eyes atlethi radiants, i don't think the kholins are much different from the other light eyes in atlethi society so seems over kill. Adolin awakening his sword and becoming a radiant that way would be different than earning a spren in the regular way but i still think would belittle what the others have gone through to claim there spren. As for adolin and gallant i actually read that more so he felt forgotten/left out and felt companionship with gallant.

What i meant is in my opinion, the shadesmar section only really served to keep kaladin away from dalinar for long enough. The shadesmar section could of been done by jasnah taking shallan, shallan accidently taking adolin there etc, it seemed dragged out only to keep kaladin from dalinar, thats what i meant by saying the premise was weak. I really hope adolin does not awaken the blade and become a KR, he is not deserving of being one in my opinion and would sort of belittle what the others have gone through to become one. I'd be fine with adolin awakening the blade if the resulting spren left him then though. There is too many kholin KR already as well. Technically this is true. But following on from what @Walkerxes said the difference between previous generations of KR reactioin to the revelations they are the voidbringers and this generation reaction to it is honour so i think thats the real reason. I understand what your saying, i just dont think the level of addiction we see is foreshadowed, so seems out the blue. What is foreshadowed in my opinion is a much lesser addiction, more in line with a soft drug or alcohol/gambling. Whereas the effects of firemoss to me, seemed more in line with addiction to a hard drug. Perhaps if was built up more in OB where some of the more likely effects of hard drug addiction are seen i would think different. The jump is just too extreme for me personally I found shallan arcs very repetitive, as you mentioned the uithriu parts could of been trimmed also in kholinar could of been trimmed, because were repetetive. Her failure as veil should never of happened in my opinion because the fracturing of identies due to hiding from truths shouldnt of been a thing because when she spoke the 4th truth at the end of WoR it should of meant she had to embrace it and as a result her story progressed instesd it regressed or stagnated, thats just my opinion. Regards kaladin/ shallan, i just dont think that should ever of been a thing, it sprang up from no way and made no sense to me. My issue with kaladins arc isnt the fact he didnt save the day at the end, he had less page time in favour of more boring characters though, also his trip to find his family/time with his family could of been done better in my opinion, instead he returned to dalinar in uirithu and was just there. Adolin is a secondary character and should stay that way, when i say he was wasted i meant more that the repurcussions of him killing sadeas was wasted, alot of things could of happened with that. As i said above i hope if adolin awakens the blade the spren leaves him, he isnt deserving of being a kR and there are already to many kholin radinats. Dalinar, renarin (although dont think he can be called a KR presently), jasnah, shallan by marriage she will be kholin, adding adolin ti that be to much, would mean of 10 orders of KR the kholon family has 5 orders. As i said previously if he swore to kaladin i wouldnt of minded so much. Swearing to dalinae just made no sense. Minor characters individually as a whole they are verging on more though and are vastly more interesting then other secondary characters. This is exactly why i say the dalinar we knew in tWoK and WoR was a lie, maybe the word fake or sham be better to describe him. But i cant see how at the end of OB when after the revelations of dalinars past are made public that kaladin and Szeth would be ok with it as it appears they are at the end of OB and if they dont have a negative reaction in book 4 (we know they should based on past experiences) i feel that wouldnt follow who they are and wouldnt make sense. Thats my main issue with OB, its really at heart a 600 page story in a 1233 page book I couldnt of said it better than that.

I think this makes more sense then how i read it or rsharas and others interpretation.

The losing honours favour is a good point and i can see that being the real reason not the destroying the world or the voidbringer revelation. If thats what you meant ? They didnt know before, the KR aa an order knew before but that generation of KR didnt, As i said above i lean toward, @Walkerxes interpretation, seems more fitting.

Welcome to the thread. Just to say i didnt dislike the shadesmar, section, just the premise of why they were there, and what it served in the book, if shallan had gone there while training her surges for example i would of been on board with it, but seemed to only serve getting kaladin away from dalinar for long enough rather then any other reason

Ok i read that differently to you it seems, This part: "In the past, Honor was able to guard against this, the Stormfather told him. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now?" i take it to mean in the past when the KR found out they were the voidbringers honor soothed the revelation. "But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar." This time he didnt, and said how they would destroy the world, Hence why i said above: This implied to me that the main reason for the recreance was in fact that revelation, and that the destroying of the planet was a secondary reason after they realised (more acurrately they believed wrongly) the desolations were at an end and if left unchecked they could potentially destroy roshar because they didnt trust themselves not to eventully abuse there powers. normally honour was there to tell them it was ok, this time he told them how it wouldnt be ok, so i see the number 1 reason being the voidbringer fact and the number 2 reason being what there powers might do now the desolations are in there mind are over

Problem worsening in my opinion isnt exactly change, its the same problem only deeper, so as i said before while its different its actually the same. Your right about the fracturing of identies being new, i mis remembered that from WoR, when i thought it had started with veil. With that i will revise my thought on her slightly Character devolopment doesn't mean improvement again you are right, but as i said previoisly when she spoke the 4th ideal/truth to me, she at that point should of not been able to speak it, unless she embraced it and moved forward. Because it makes no sense to be able speak the truth to progress to the 4th level of knight radiant then regress. From above i guess she devoloped since the personality slipping began in OB not WoR like i thought, I stand by the statement i made though that for the length of the book there wasnt enough devolopment. Because of the effects we see firemoss have on different people in the books, ie with dalinar in the flashbacks he breaks a bit between his thumb and enters a euphoric state, with teft, he doesn't know where he is after taking it, wakes up drooling, completly discombobulated about where he is, and sells the clothes off his back to fund more hits from it, this is indictive of a hard drug and the effects of such, I know people who smoke weed/canabis and can go about there day like smoked nothing. I know people who have taken heorin who cant function atal or only for short periods of time, and the signs we see in OB are more similiar to a hard drug like heorin then a soft drug like canabis. Thats why i feel the foreshadowing we see of issues tefr has ie disappearing for a day, saying cant be trusted with money, is more along the lines of what you see from an alcoholic/gambing addict. Rather then a hard drug addict where the signs would be, in conjunctiin with the ones above they don't eat, they lose weight, they borrow money (spheres) they rob money (spheres), both of which teft could of done. So my comment about it being out the blue was more so the "crack head" part then him having an addiction problem to something lesser. Because the foreshadowing didnt really align with the level of addiction we eventually see. In my original post it was an over simplification on my part, but stems from the fact the stormfather assumes now that the current knights radiant know that they are infact the "voidbringers" they will follow what the previous knigbts radiant did and there will be another recreance so to speak. This implied to me that the main reason for the recreance was in fact that revelation, and that the destroying of the planet was a secondary reason after they realised (more acurrately they believed wrongly) the desolations were at an end and if left unchecked they could potentially destroy roshar because they didnt trust themselves not to eventully abuse there powers. I kinda touched on this above, i think shallan hasnt improved most likely based on my own expectation and the frustration at how she had the chance to improve and didnt, and as i said above i will revise my thoughts on her at this point. Its fine i think was being a little over sensitive with my comment.

In what way do you disagree ?