IronBars

I might word this wrong so bare with me, i don't think we as readers have even seen the real shallan yet, the shallan we see is just as much a mask as when she becomes veil, or radiant. From what we have seen, each time shallan has a specific task or goal she wants to accomplish she alters her persona to some degree or other, some times the change is slight, sometimes the change is quiet large. And given we still don't know what "cracked/broke" shallan even after her flashback book, there is deeper lies/hidden truths to her character that we as readers have yet to even see. Based on that i believe shallans persona we see is just another mask, so there is no way Adolin knows the real shallan when we as readers don't have any idea who the real shallan is.

Im neutral on Adolin, as a character i like him, before OB he had alot of potential as a character but don't like where his story arc is going since OB. I think in OB he was shunted to the side more then in WoK, WoR, and this fact coupled with the lack of a reaction to the murder of Sadeas both internally and externally ruined any potential he had moving forward imo. I don't like the maya revival story line in any way shape or form and really hope that doesn't end up happening. That said i much prefer Adolin to any other kholin at the moment, besides Jasnah, who we don't see enough of.

@maxal we will just need to agree to disagree,

Honouring your oaths regardless of a moral filter or no moral filter is the same thing, so the skybreakers honour and windrunners honour are the same thing, thats besides the point though, What i was saying was kaladin should of been able kill amaram, because since he killed kaladins friends, honour would demand that kaladin seek vengence. (I am not on about the shard honour, im on about what honour actually is and the different variations of it) Protecting people is honourable Seeking vengence against someone who killed your friends is honourable. Killing someone to prevent mass murder is honourable. Killing someone to stop a cataclysmic event is honourable, but all we see from honourspren is the "protection" aspect. Thats what i mean by there being a narrow view.

When kaladin saves Dalinar on the tower, he hadn't sworn to protect him, so by the version of honour we see in SA he shouldnt of been able kill the parshendi then. He doesnt decide he should protect everyone, he ends up unable to act because he sees friends on both sides, that is not the same. Your point on the skybreakers is good so i wll drop that one. I don't see this as remembering someone who was forgotten, it was just an honourable act. This applies to most survivors, its constantly remarked on by kaladin as well so i don't think this falls under "i will remember those who were forgotten" either I think this is just natural, a son remembering a mother. First one is honourable second one i guess fits, but kaladin wasnt ignored.... Again this seems just a natural thing anyone would do. Again this is natural and shallan wasnt forgotten/ignored Again this is honourable, but doesnt showcase any ideals related to edgedancers in my opinion fits more with "protect those who cant protect themselves" I can't say i agree with this, the examples you gave imo don't fit the edgedancers ideals, just making different things hes done fit into those ideals. You might very well be right and he becomes an edgedancer, if that happens then the narrative foreshadowing this has been terribly weak though.

Im in the republic, the uk amazon does here as well, theres not trouble in the north anymore since the late 80s/early 90s, but with brexit could start again if a hard boarder is put in place, its a very contentious point in the negotiations for brexit and indeed here and the north.

Honour is honour, every facet of honour should be included not one narrow view of honour in my opinion, i understand it isn't but honour is not one simple thing like depicted in SA. There is honour in killing, as long as its for the right reasons. You say kaladins is acceptable cos he kills to protect, which is wrong as well going by the SA version of honour because he protects one side over the other, the way honour is wrote in SA kaladin shouldnt of been allowed do even that. Yes they didnt disband, but they follow Nale, most have sworn there third ideal to him, and nale isn't acting how he should, he is a distortion of his true self, therefore you can say that they aren't what the skybreakers should be........thus its not a stretch to say the skybreakers perhaps once valued justice over the laws of man, because justice is justice whereas the laws of man are falible. Can you elaborate on this ? Because i can't recall him "remembering" anyone really, or "listening to everyone" il like to know where you find the belief edgedancers fit him to the bone comes from.

My point with these orders was not to show how he fits each one, but to show how he has traits from each but doesn't embody any order that we have seen. Brandon writes a very narrow view of honour in the SA, i say this to you.saying how Adolin killing Sadeas wouldn't of been approved of by honourspren, because in reality Adolin/Dalinar should be honour bound to find justice for there men they lost over Sadeas. Same with kaladin wanting to eliminate amaram for killing his friends, leaving the person responcible for killing your friends walk around unpunished is not honourable. As for the skybreakers i think they used follow justice, not the laws of man, so while the current skybreakers wouldnt accept him now the old ones might, because justice and the law are not really the same thing, when Sadeas was killed it was justice. About the stonewards/dustbringers we don't know enough, given we have Lift and her oaths to judge edgedancers on i cant see how Adolin fits them, not saying Lift is the Atypical edgedancers but what her oaths are Adolin doesn't embody.

The cover are for ye is very different then what i have here Those are the covers for here in Ireland, ones in america etc seem very different

Kaldin cracked a little everytime he tried save someone and failed i think, starting with the little girl in heartstone, Shallan killee her mother with a shardblade, so she had bonded pattern before that, so must of at least spoke the first ideal before then, and possibly one or 2 truths, to be able make pattern a shardblade, so we don't see how she was cracked/broken. Renarin being socially awkward and not fitting in doesn't seem enough imo i think something more must have happened, as to what im not sure. Regards jasnah i think the "lunacy" was when she bonded ivory, confided in someone the things she was seeing etc and they thought she was made leading to a an attempt to maybe perform something along the lines of an exorcism by the vorin church, hence why shes a heretic, might be wrong on that but when i read the passage on her "lunacy" that was my immediate thought. Ya Adolin doesnt seem to have any real reaction to killing Sadeas, i had thought he would. Ya your right, i agree what we see in book two isn't what cracked him since as you said he is seeing the cryptics in book one so his cracking must predate that, Maybe will find out that in jasnahs flashback book as well.

@Aurora the Rioter Ya thats what i think could happen, like neo at the end of the matrix

Since jezrein was killed seems likely kaladin might replace him as a hearld imo

Massive plot twist ? Odium is the good guy looking for justice against the humans on roshar for destroying his world and people,

Ya there's a similar thread to this one where i said i think would be good, end in a resounding defeat for the KR with a ray of hope etc. And ya Rothfuss would, if he ever releases it....

This is exactly what i think, much of OB is dedicated to politically unite Roshar, (way to much of the book) yet not one sentence is spared for how to find more proto-radiants, what to look out for in order to locate them, how radiants come to be, why radiants are chosen by different spren, what can they do to encourage certain people to attract spren etc , this seems a glaring omission and are such obvious questions for in world characters to ask it makes no sense that no one did... Il be honest here, and say i do not think Elhokar(yes He wasnt but had attracted a spren so was going to be) or Renarin (not really a radiant anyway since he has a corrupted spren) deserve to be radiants and if navani becomes one than id be pretty annoyed.(unpopular opinion) Also i think can question the worthiness of Dalinar being one given hes only one because of cultivation.(unpopular opinion) Regards Adolin, he could fit with the windrunners technically, because he always protected his men, risking himself to protect lives, ie on plautau runs always went over the bridges first so hes men wouldnt suffer etc up until he kills Sadeas he is also seemingly very honourable, (killing Sadeas also could be seen as honourable ie honour demanded he avenge his men who died because of Sadeas, depends on your point of view on that). He protected the prostitute in Sadeas camp. So he has traits that could see him earn an honourspren in my opinion. For some reason i also think he could suit the Dustbringers, don't have a clear reason why for this. Stonewards - described as exemplifying resolve, strength, and dependability (he shows these characteristics) also they were prone to last stands, i think the battle of narak showcases how Adolin could fit into this order. Also in the dueling ring against 4 opponents. Edgedancers - seemingly the most popular one for Adolin to be associated with due to maya, only way he fits here in my opinion is this "although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned;" fits Adolins skill with a blade but fits any top level swordsman. skybreakers - maybe here to because he sought justice against Sadeas (by killing him) regardless of what could happen to him, "I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo" "You'd let it go, then?''Storms, no,' Kaladin said. 'I'd find my own justice.' 'Oh...' Syl settled on his shoulder. They walked for a long while, eventually approaching the warcamp. 'You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin,' Syl finally said. 'You're not supposed to be like this" and he rigidly followed the Alethi codes as well. these are loose connections, but show imo how he could fit but doesn't actually fit hence my analogy of "jack of all trades, but master of none" @Aizhen the point of not being cracked enough is a good one, but we haven't seen enough to really tell, the cracked thing you mentioned regards Adolin could be applied to Renarin as well though, yet he attracted a spren, albeit a corrupted one, so did Elhokar so it seems maybe people don't need to be as cracked/broken, as much as we thought to begin forming a bond. Even with shallan we don't know how she became "cracked/broken" even after her flashback book.

Ya i had a similiar thought, makes sense if first arc ends in a defeat to me

Regards Shallan, does anyone have a strong theory for what really broke/cracked Shallan ? Since we didnt see this in her flash back book ? Regards Kaladin i still hes 4th ideal revolves around sacrifice, the greater good keeps being mentioned throughout the good, which kaladin always has an issue with, so i think those get combined and it becomes "i will sacrifice those i love if it is the right thing to do" I base this on the scene in kholinar when the wall guard fight the parshendi, and kaladin is unable to act because has friends on both sides. Could be totally wrong but i think hes 4th ideal is so he can act in those situations.

We will need to agree to disagres on that, In that post i said, he is only who he is now because his "memories" were taken, so im not sure what you mean there, more was taken from Dalinar then memories, he was changed at a core level, not just losing a memory or two. No he isn't the same man, because he was remade into a man capable of becoming who we see in WoK, WoR, without Cultivations intervention he would of been unable become who we see. It was decided by Dalinar, but only because Cultivation removed all of Odiums influence, which allowed Dalinar to become more then he could of without cultiavtions intervention. It wasnt just removing memories, she changed everything that made Dalinar Dalinar at that time, because everything Dalinar was was Odiums influence, The difference in our arguments seem to be you think a few memories were taken, and i think memories and alot more were taken, ie odiums influence. The fact Dalinars brother recieved the stormfathers visions long before Dalinar backs this up.Dalinar was not worthy of them,why ? Because he was being groomed as Odiums champion, and until cultivations intervention he was not worthy, the core of Dalinar was changed to the point he went from unworthy to having the potential to becoming worthy which he eventually did, that is more akin to reforging then pruning because the core was altered

Your right @Calderis large scale aggressive pruning does happen, but rarely is the "core" of what is being "pruned" changed correct ? Whereas in Dalinars situation it was. So he wasnt "pruned" (guided) to becoming someone else he was reforged into someone else. That is a stark difference.

Ok, i really don't appreciate the tone you seem to have here, or the implied suggestion i don't know what a word means. Maybe you need to re google pruning because what you said there is only one interpretation of the word "pruning" From cambridge english dictionary. to cut off branches from a tree, bush, or plant, especially so that it will grow better in the future: to reduce something by removing things that are not necessary collins english dictionary the process of cutting off unwanted branches the cutting of inessentials As you can see all 4 of those is a method of guiding the direction in which something progresses, i hope you find that illuminating. This doesn't really make any sense, as pruning implies guiding growth or any of its opposites you care to apply by the very defintion of the word, im not sure how you say it doesn't ?? Hes growth went a different way because he was not who he was, not because a memory or 2 was taken from him. There is a massive difference between losing memories over time, and having a huge part of who you are (at that moment) suddenly vanish. Im not even sure how you can compare the two situations. None of those options are the same as what happened. He didnt choose to become anything, thats the point he was made into someone else. I don't think she gave him complete memory loss, she took everything that made him who he was at the moment, and blocked/hid/took it away, she didnt just take the memories of his wife and rathalas, she took everything influenced by Odium, that is the difference, thus making him an entirely different person. How you imagine deleting the memory of rathalas affected such a change is mind boggling to me,

Ya, but pruning suggests little changes were made to guide growth in a certain direction. This isn't the case with Dalinar, he wasn't guided to become who he was in WoK/WoR, he was remade to be the person in WoK,WoR, that is a very different thing to "pruning" imo. Reforged would be a better word then "pruned" and more accurate, because everything that made him, him at that point was taken away, he was made an entirely different person, not just a slightly better person, not a much better person, an entirely different person. Like a blade with to many impurities in it, gets melted down and reforged into something entirely new/different.

Ya i think he would be great to play Szeth, does an unbelievable job as floki in vikings, Ya i thought stephen lang (bad guy in avatar) would be a good Dalinar, and manu bennett could work really well as teft.

The question id like to know the answer to is - what really "broke" or "cracked" shallan, because even in WoR, her flashback book, we didnt discover that, Also - is the reason it was culivation and not the nightwatcher who "helped" Dalinar because she sensed he was being groomed as odiums champion and seen the opportunity to severely damage Odiums plans, by taking away hes "ace in the hole". Sorry if they have been asked and answered

Ya i meant real world time, im guessing book 5 be out in 2023 at best ? Then thats at a guess 2030 before book 6, il be 44 by then ugh

I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread, but just want to chime in here about Adolin, Firstly i think the reaction of anyone finding out Renarin was a radiant would firstly be shock and then to ask why wasn't Adolin chosen ? I don't say this because i dislike Renarin i say it because how the people in book view Renarin and Adolin himself, it seems like should be a natural question for people within the book to ask themselves given how they see them. Secondly It strikes me as odd the current KR haven't discussed how/what/why/when etc they bonded there spren because this could be extremely helpful in locating/finding new potential radiants if they found a common denominator, they would have an idea of what to look out for. This question also leading to why Adolin hasn't attracted a spren. To say there was no time for that doesn't make sense either because a lot of OB was characters discussing plans for this and that, so it seems a massive omission not to consider how to identify new KR or even wonder how they could get certain people to attract a spren etc Thirdly Personally i think Adolin hasn't attracted a spren because while he seems to have traits that could fit several orders, he doesn't have the traits of any order fully, I used a horrible analogy in a different thread saying he was like a pyramid shape trying to fit in a conical shaped hole (apologies), However a better anology would be "hes a jack of all trades, but a master of none"