Strifelover

Shouldn't he have an idea what would happen though? I get that Kaladin wasn't raised in the Lighteyes courts or anything, but he has been in this world for his entire life. He's also got a VERY healthy understanding of the gap in society between Lighteyes and Darkeyes, and in general he's a very smart guy. I feel like he should've seen that coming, but I guess he didn't really plan this out ahead of time and probably just got caught up in the moment.

Yeah clearly Viv's sword seems to be a lot more efficient and onerous on the user. I'm guessing it's something like when they first discovered Lifeless, it took tons of breaths to make each one. Then subsequently they figured out the single-breath lifeless command, and then the ichor-alcohol to keep them running smoothly. Her sword was probably created and runs without nearly the investiture requirement of Nightblood.

I just saw this very cool response from Brandon over on this Reddit thread. Basically, BS had previously said he'd like to include a Nalthis essay (which was notably absent from the original Arcanum Unbounded) in a future edition, around the time of its paperback release and/or Oathbringer. Given that both have happened, they asked if he still intended to write that and here's his response: So... that's pretty awesome, yeah?

I don't think that a Shardblade exists without its Shardblade-y powers so it's kind of tough to say. It's not like this is an awakened sword that existed as a normal sword prior to being invested. Shardblades are made from investiture that in the Physical Realm turns into metal, similar to Lerasium or Atium but there's no frame of reference for what Shardblade metal would be like or if it exists elsewhere as not a Shardblade. To try and answer your question though - someone asked if a Shardblade can cut aluminum. Brandon said in general no, aluminum blocks the magic of a Shardblade and so would stop it from just cutting right through. However, Shardblades are also just blades and so if it was really thin, like aluminum foil, it can still cut it just from weight alone.

I really like this idea. As I was reading it, I thought you were going in a different direction, but I like where your theory ends up! As a potential counterpoint, here's where I thought this was heading: The Shin do indeed grab the Honorblades after the Last Desolation and keep them safe. They train, albeit begrudgingly, warriors in the various Surges in case they need them. Not only can the Shin keep the blades safe, but the blades can keep the Shin safe by providing a powerful weapon and a great deterrent should anyone try to invade. Fast forward to the Recreance, where we have all of our Surgebinders (save the Skybreakers, and I'm curious how many people knew they stuck around) abandon their oaths, breaking their bonds. Not only is the world indeed plunged into chaos, but the balance of power may have significantly shifted. Prior to the Recreance, the Shin essentially had 9 or 10 Honorblades, and their associated "Surgebinders" against the world which has hundreds or perhaps thousands of them. Now suddenly, though the Shardblades survive the Surgebinding doesn't. Maybe the Shin give in to human nature a bit more than we'd like to think. If the Skybreakers are indeed unknown in keeping their Oaths, the Shin suddenly see themselves as the only nation possessing 9 or 10 powerful, highly trained Surgebinders, which confers a huge military advantage. The rest of Roshar is embroiled in various fighting over the Shards with Shardbearers all jockeying for power. This presents the perfect opportunity for the Shin invasion, maybe they even convinced themselves there were doing something benevolent or maybe they saw an advantage and got greedy. It certainly wouldn't be the first time people from Shinovar invaded Roshar!

Why do the Spren of Honor and Cultivation have to be identical to the Spren of Odium? Spren are all just splinters, and we've seen splinters from other worlds that are perfectly intelligent in the physical realm. That Voidspren and the H/C Spren offer similar powers to the singers or humans that they bond with almost certainly has more to do with how the fundamental surges manifest on Roshar, not because splinters of Odium and Honor/Cultivation created splinters in exactly the same way. If you want some more practical speculation, maybe different Spren require different amounts of investiture in order to create them. We don't specifically know how many spren there are of H/C vs. Odium, but it's entirely possible that having Spren of varying levels of sapience and especially in the physical realm allows H/C to create far more of them. We see TONS of Spren of H/C that aren't intelligent whatsoever in either the physical or cognitive realms, all of the non-sapient ones, so they must have other reasons for creating Spren the way they do besides just maximum intelligence.

But we know from that WOB that the 17th Shard believes in not interfering, and yet there are 17th Sharders on Roshar doing stuff. So clearly they think it's possible to observe without interfering, or they're comfortable with messing around a little but not a lot. If they can come to terms with this logic, I don't see why Endowment couldn't. On the other hand, I also don't think that Endowment (or any Shard) is directly involved with or leading the 17th Shard. Firstly, Brandon makes it sound like they're almost a force of oversight for the Shards. Not like they could directly compel a Shard to do anything, but that they're working behind the scenes to nudge things in the right direction. Seems like a big conflict of interest to have a Shard involved in policing the Shards. Second, the letter from Hoid to Frost makes it sound (in my opinion) like Frost is in charge to some degree. As an immortal dragon I assume Frost is pretty awesome. It would be disappointing if he was just working for a Shard, but it doesn't seem likely that a Shard would be a part of an organization and not at the top. Purely my speculation on that though.

Agree with everything you say. This isn't a debate over what happened to Eshonai, but rather a debate over the definition of 'mind control.' If we all agree on what happens, but prefer to use different words to describe it, then go nuts!

Well remember this is in the context of a story, so it's intentionally written for dramatic narrative. I figure that 'stealing' a Spren is more like attracting one to bond with you when it's supposedly forbidden, not like a human is just throwing a burlap sack around a Spren and dashing off. You make a good point about the Spren only granting access to the surges after the creation of the Honorblades, which presumably would be after the first 'desolation' where humans are the Voidbringers and into the next one when the Singers are. I wonder though if this would still allow for Spren to bond with people and grant them access to drawing in Stormlight. We see that Kaladin is still pretty potent before he ever starts accessing the surges. So given what you point out, maybe as the humans start to expand out of Shinovar they attract Spren, who want to bond with them because it gives them greater sapience. This in turn gives humans access to investiture and the ability to draw in Stormlight, but not yet surges. Even with that the humans become a much bigger threat and are now able to capitalize on their 'lust for blood.' Then the Singers feel betrayed, turn to Odium and blah blah desolations, etc.

That’s exactly what she wants you (and Odium) to think. Bunch of nobodies with wacky curses? That could never be a threat...until WHAM a guy who can’t smell anymore is the perfect counter to Dai-gonarthis’ odor-based powers.

Sorry yeah you're right, I forgot that they also consider non-sapient investiture spren too. Carry on! Edit: I guess in hindsight I was just thinking about and focusing on the spren that grant access to magic, as compared to the spren that are sort or just...there. But either way a dumb distinction and you're right.

Edit: for less hugeness.

Yeah I think it's important to clarify exactly what we're talking about, and asking for here. When @Ravioli asks if there are Spren on Ashyn, do you mean sapient investiture in general? Technically, Seons are spren, there's a WOB that says the Rosharans would consider Shards and Adonalsium spren. On the other hand, Cognitive Shadows are different, but because most Rosharans aren't Cosmere-aware they'd call them spren too. So I think you can look at the question in three ways: - Does Ashyn have what Rosharans would call spren? Basically, any sapient investiture, cognitive shadow or probably anything that just seems weird and magical. - Does Ashyn have the technical definition of a spren? Sapient investiture - Does Ashyn have spren that act in the very specific way that they do on Roshar? Sapient investiture that bonds with people and grants them access to Surgebinding. I'm thinking almost certainly yes for 1 and 2, most likely not for 3.

We've already seen several of the Nightwatcher and Cultivation's boons and curses having a significant impact on our story. The most obvious is Dalinar, with Cultivation stealing away Odium's champion at exactly the right moment. Lift is also playing an increasingly large role in our story, and her ability to partially interact with the cognitive realm has some wild implications. I also think that the Diagram is all an elaborate piece of Cultivation's long game, and she's manipulating Taravangian and Co. to do exactly what she needs. So this leads me to believe that in fact - all of the boons and curses are part of Cultivation's master plan. Just think about it, what if the surge of gravitation suddenly flips everybody upside down? BOOM Av's Dad can see everything perfectly and has plenty of good cloth. What if Odium makes something really hot that needs retrieving? Av's brother can grab it with his numb hands AND he'll look fantastic with his new haircut. Maybe Baxil finally became useful and got courage for when things get really scary. Each boon/curse is Cultivation playing chess while Odium plays checkers. Go ahead and debate, and I'm excited to be proven 100% right... some time around Book 9.

It's worth mentioning that there's this WOB where somebody asks him about Vax. After the person says OK so Vax is a place Brandon makes sure to reiterate it's HEAVILY IMPLIED that it's a place, not that it is. May just be a distinction just for drama's sake, like the Man who calls himself Taln type thing, but there could be something to that.

Yeah I agree with you, although I think that Recneps was just simplifying events down into single sentences for easy reading. We actually know that Odium visited Roshar prior to the humans' arrival, but that once they got there they gave him 'more of an ear.' (relevant WOB) Given that Honor and Cultivation forced the Singers to take in the humans, I doubt they foresaw how hostile a people they would become. I think that after the humans arrived, Odium saw an opportunity to influence people on Roshar and came back and started making trouble. There must have been some downtime between when the humans arrived and the first desolation (the one in which the humans are the Voidbringers). It would be pretty absurd for your Gods to force you to take in refugees who then immediately start killing you.

Speaking of the Heralds at the feast, I've always found it a little weird when Kalak mentions how Ash " [is] getting worse," the voice continued. "We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse." Now it makes sense that they're messed up, given everything they've been through. But you would think that with their abandoning of the Oathpact to live in obscurity thousands of years ago (at least more than 4,500), that if they were getting worse it would've been clear long ago. If it was a slow decline, how gradual would it need to be to only be noticeable now? If it was more recent, what changed? Makes me think that perhaps recent events, Taln cracking and breaking, Odium manifesting his big plan, etc could be having an effect on them.

I think it's safe to assume that the humans and singers/parsh weren't initially at war. In Eila Stele it says that they didn't want to take the humans in, but were commanded by their gods, and that they're traitors with tongues of sweetness but minds that lust for blood. To me, that sounds like the singers were reasonably distrustful of humans but took them in and gave them Shinovar. The humans initially played nicely, but subsequently betrayed the singers' reluctant trust. To go a bit further on the OP's idea of the girl who looked up, the story could be almost literal. Some human ventured beyond Shinovar and formed a bond with a Spren, which allowed them to draw in Stormlight. Thus that human brought light into their world of darkness, which also gave them the power to conquer and expand beyond Shinovar which is what their minds lusted for. The singers feel totally betrayed by their gods, because they did everything asked/commanded of them and yet Spren chose to bond with humans because they're more conducive to bonding for whatever reason. That led directly to the humans being able to attack the singers, and they had no choice but to turn to Odium seeking the power to fight back.

Preservation didn't make Atium, it's the distilled, physical form of Ruin's Investiture that occurs naturally just like Lerasium. What Pres did was swap in atium in the snapping of mistings, and in the general knowledge of allomancers. It's mentioned in MB:SH that atium mistings is a new concept, timed specifically so that they will burn up Ruin's body/power right when he needed it to complete the destruction of the planet. That's his grand plan. The fact that atium grants limited futuresight is more because it grants some access to the spiritual realm, which we see through other means in other books. It's more just a fundamental power in the cosmere, than it is necessary associated with good or evil. In the context of SA it just happens to be more associated with the Shard that is evil from our heroes' perspectives.

It's worth keeping in mind that in-world characters will use their respective in-world terminology. Brandon has mentioned this several times in different contexts, for example they would've referred to Honor and Cultivation as Spren, even Nightblood and Adonalsium as well (relevant WOB). Also when asked about the knife that stabbed Jezrien, he was asked if that was hemalurgic in nature and he said it used the same fundamentals and people in-world would call it that, but that he wouldn't (other WOB). That's all to say that the specific words that our characters use, even ones like the Stormfather, may be chosen more because of their in-world familiarity than their technical accuracy. It seems to me that the Fused are more like cognitive shadows than sapient investiture, but unless you're a cosmere-aware arcanist that may be too subtle a distinction to grasp so you just call everything a Spren because it's what you know.

Plot twist! Book 4 opens with the execution of Adolin and Kaladin for the murder and attempted murder of Sadeas and Elhokar following a lengthy trial during the time gap. ;-D

I agree, although it'll be interesting to see what the actual ideals are for dustbringers. So far we're 2/2 with Dustbringers seeming pretty evil, but it might be a Skybreaker situation where it probably should be positive ideals, but leaves so much up to interpretation that it really relies on the individual.

Definitely, and even if the orders are generally geared towards positive or productive ideals that doesn't mean a particular radiant can't have a totally warped opinion on what those oaths really mean. There was that Dalinar vision where he met Nohadon who mentions a rogue radiant (who I believe was also Dustbringer) that started a war. Obviously we can only speak for the orders' ideals that we know of so far, but most of them seem geared towards service to others and improvement either personally or at a community level. It'll be interesting to see what the other orders' ideals look like. Lightweavers seem like the exception so far, and it's not hard to imagine how the search for truth can lead towards something dangerous if unchecked. It's basically the start of every sci fi movie: we explored technology, an alien planet, genetics, etc and we went. too. far!

One of the really interesting things about bonding a Cryptic is the way their oaths work. The other orders we've seen, the ideals are generally pretty good ways to moderate their behavior - protect people, remember and speak for the forgotten, uphold the law, etc. Now they don't necessarily obligate radiants to be good, since a lot of it comes down to their perspective. We see this with Kaladin throughout WoR and Nale...pretty much always. BUT the Lightweavers/cryptics seem entirely unchecked by their oaths and ideals. It's just about admitting truths to yourself, which doesn't serve to moderate their behavior much at all. Perhaps they're so dangerous because they aren't really beholden to any particular oaths, but simply seeking truths.

As with anything related to the Heralds, I think it's important to always keep in mind they're completely insane. As that WoB indicates, they may (and almost always do) have absolutely terrible logic, so it doesn't really need to make sense to us. In Edgedancer, Nale absolutely refuses to accept the reality of the radiants' return until he's presented with overwhelming evidence, so him ignoring that the Parshendi are still around doesn't seem that much of a stretch. You could even argue that they're a breakaway faction from the Singers, hence Listeners, and can't become the law of the land as a result. What I do think will be interesting is in future books as the Singers start to form their own factions. Clearly Venli as a future Willshaper and possessor of awesome envoy powers will lead a faction of Singers that join the radiants and humans. What does Nale do then if, as I believe, he's really loyal to the Singers and not the Fused? Could be some big-time internal struggles ahead for him, that I'm excited to see.