Azure Mouse

Tenth of the Dusk felt his reasons hadn't changed. Information from the Ruin of Shadesmar, pertaining to the Shadesmar Eight and Sir Brockett [OOC: Violet Axolotl] clearly stated that the only possible killers of Odium that night could have been Sir Brockett, himself, and the strange worldhopper known as Solemnheart [OOC: Plum Rhinoceros.] Sir Brockett had claimed to have been invested in by the Shard Preservation; moreover, a representative of Preservation had stood up to confirm this by accusing Sir Brockett of the attempted kill that night. Tenth himself had made no secret of the fact he was not a Shard, and another had provided him a scan on Solemmheart that had identified Solemnheart as also not being a Shard. [OOC: Investiture scan on Rhino shows Rhino is not a Shard either. I am not a Shard and thus must be included in the set of roleblocked non-Shards.] First, they had to establish the pool of likely suspects. It was known that Odium's power could only be channeled through those who were not Shards. Furthermore, as there was no kill - not even anyone defending themselves that night - the killer had to have been stopped, somehow. Put those facts together and the only ones who could have made the kill were those who had been stopped, and who were not Shards. That left himself, Sir Brockett, and Solemnheart. [OOC: A brief rehash of the facts. There was no mention of a kill attempt and a protection in the write-up, meaning that neither Odium* nor the N2 investee were able to make the kill. This is consistent with several possibilities - a roleblock, them failing to put in the order, or in the case of Odium, there being no one in the Rosharan system C2. I won't dwell on Odium first - that for later. For now, I just want to note we've established that the only potential investees are myself, Axolotl, and Rhino, because the Odite faction kill is actually, in this game, an Investment power, meaning there must be a legitimate investee for there to be a kill.] Second, of all the likely suspects, Tenth found his gaze returning again and again to Solemnheart. First, it was apparent to him that those of Odium had in fact known that Aurora [OOC: Taupe Gecko] had been protected by the Shard Mercy and had striven both to offer a suitable alternative. Enoras [OOC: Coral Swan] had theorised that Odium's champions had attempted to get Endowment executed in order to prevent Mercy's intervention from being known; Tenth thought that likely, and suspected as well that Odium's champions had been attempting to ensure there was a second viable candidate, should Mercy's powers be necessary to save Aurora. And indeed, so it had turned out. Solemnheart had been the fourth on Endowment, after Aurora had voted to execute Endowment to save herself. [OOC: Pretty sure there needed to be Elims on the Beagle train - I think Swan is right that Mercy's stay of execution was their trump card. They tried to ensure there was another wagon beating the Gecko train but that even if it didn't, there would be a misexe thanks to Mercy. Looking at who's there - Ostrich, me, Rhino, and Gecko. Rhino piled on fourth onto the train, and last.] He distrusted the immediacy with which Solemnheart had also jumped on Niru Drash's [OOC: Melon Dingo] suspicion of Remy, the then-claimed holder of the Shattered Shard, Prudence. It was reasonable to be wary of a sudden claimant who had also requested for Cultivation to personally contact them (how, Tenth wasn't sure), yet at the same time, Tenth wondered. For surely Prudence, in connecting all, would be a threat, though perhaps not the most significant one. This, of course, assumed that Remy was on the level, and yet Tenth supposed he was. He had kept his vote on Siena Ashao early on, after all. [OOC: Crocodile D1 vote - early voter, stayed on Crocodile.] Solemnheart, too, seemed to continue to paint doubt, even while asserting that Prudence was better off unShattered. [OOC: I'm not hellbent on this one but I do find it odd. Perhaps a bit of gut, but I think what bothers me is the mixed messages - it's very lukewarm. 'Oh this is suss. But oh, repair Prudence I guess.'] Finally, he distrusted Aurora's parting vote on Solemnheart, which Aurora had painted as though she intended to save her life, implying that Solemnheart was of Adonalsium. Something about it felt off - that given how Aurora had presented herself so far, it felt like a misdirection and an attempt to establish distance, rather than an ill-fated attempt at self-preservation. [OOC: I read it a distancing vote. It could be a mislead, but Gecko has generally gone straight.] It wasn't that it was a hunting nightmaw, but if it wasn't Aurora, then who could it be? Tenth knew he hadn't done it, and he expected that Sir Brockett [OOC: Violet Axolotl] hadn't either. And then there were those small things that didn't add up, along with Aurora's voting pattern. [OOC: Not a smoking gun but too many weird small things, we know it has to be one of us three unless I'm missing something and I think it's less likely to be Axolotl, but also, voting pattern.]

In a small crevasse in the chasms of the Shattered Plains, Tenth of the Dusk thought he heard a voice. A hateful laugh, on the wind. A great evil set loose upon the world. Upon worlds. He sat there, listening to the sound of the pouring rain. Cleaning his crossbow. Honing his knife. They'd killed him. The one known as Penguin. Tenth and Penguin had shared many long conversations. They had been interesting ones, too. They'd talked not on the game of Shards and conspiracy but on Rose Empire noodles, and what could be eaten raw. On philosophy. On games. It had been nice, talking. Especially when Tenth had been so lonely on Roshar. They'd killed him though. Mercilessly. Honing his knife, listening to the sound of the falling rain, Tenth swore to avenge the fallen. Light bloomed, a small mote. Like a flower. Like a promise. Kaikoa chirped, and pecked at his ear. Rain.

[OOC: Dropping this here just in case I'm dead by daylight. To be updated tomorrow morning, and some information has been elided because of role sensitivity etcetera. As a quick explanation: certainty denotes how strong the evidence for Shardic/non-Shardic status is. Connections indicates that information has at some point involved these individuals, or that they are known to communicate with these individuals. If the person is discovered to be the N2 killer, look at these chaps in your analysis. Finally, I think the most clear culprit is Rhino - suss Beagle vote, came down hard on Opal Lion D2 to stop unshattering, distancing vote from Gecko. Good night,

[OOC: Personally - preparation for pocketing. We know Gecko picked up Crocodile's spanreed N1 on Sel and Crocodile's spanreed connected to Chameleon. But this is just a guess. I feel like the IKYK is a bit strong with this one.]

[OOC: I agree that it's grating for sure. Nice to see someone else finds it that way too ] [OOC: The downside of not having taught in a while is that I don't reflexively pitch at the ideal undergrad level anymore, and also that I wasn't sure I wanted to spend half an hour or more fine-tuning this ]

[OOC - OOC If we postulate that in this instance that 'Honour' serves as a proper name, then the real question is whether 'Honour' and 'Honor' are considered to pick out the same objects, or referents. This goes back to Kripke (1980) in Naming and Necessity where certain kinds of proper names are considered to be 'rigid designators', or to use modal language as a way of expressing possibility, that these names are considered to have the same referent in all possible worlds where the entity exists. This is a stipulative, by the way, not a descriptive definition. Of course the causal theory of reference has its issues. But it's a useful framework in this case IMO because it really boils down to whether there is a causal history connecting the proper name 'Honour' to the referent X in a community of speakers. Now, suppose there is a causal history as well connecting the proper name 'Honor' to the referent Y. Then yes, it would be incorrect - because you cannot substitute 'Honour' for 'Honor' but mean referent Y. But suppose both have been causally connected to the referent Y. Then yeah, probably not incorrect. It's a fascinating topic in the philosophy of language Disclaimer that it's not my specialisation and I spent more time writing on the apparent contingency of scientific naming in chemical facts. tldr; does it mean the same thing/point to the same person or entity? if yes it's fine, if not, it's incorrect]

[OOC: I'm taking night classes in law, your Alabaster Maneificence, First Among Threadslayers. This is part of my training in how to address judges and that macarena penguin dp sure looks judgy as heck to me.]

[OOC: but your Honour you're clearly a macarena penguin]

[OOC: Is this the one of which you speak? 22 people voting, just so we could execute the outed Elim and save our scanner from getting Hoed. ]

[OOC: Personally I like to call it 'Fist of the Sun' because I imagine a huge fist burning like the sun emerging from nowhere and falcon-punching away one vote from one person on the world. ...or maybe my autowrong refuses to accept there's such a Shardworld as 'First of the Sun.' Think about it. Have any of ye ever been there? It's clearly a conspiracy. A conspiracy of cartographers! No one knows anyone who's actually been there.]

Tenth of the Dusk supposed this was true. And at this point, he suspected it would work only once: he wondered if Mercy might going forwards try to shield even those of Adonalsium from the execution. Even a stay of execution harmed them and helped the Odious. Forcing everyone to guess or redo the execution seemed rather merciless to Tenth. [OOC: Wouldn't be surprised if she starts doing it just to mess with us since we've had one success with Gecko. In truth, even delaying the execution on our side technically helps the Elims since it lets them rack up free kills assuming no successful protects. Given the rock-paper-scissors nature of the kills in this game, I suppose it's more likely it'll be a protracted thing since they could miskill too. On the bright side, Mercy can't save herself or Odium or any other Shards on that team that way Also, I think the simplest answer is Autonomy voted on Albatross and Gecko remained on FotS - I've been re-checking with the GMs and my assumption that Autonomy had to be on the same Shardworld to vote on someone is false, so that's not an issue here.]

[OOC: Interesting. I don't think Gecko moved from FotS - can anyone confirm this? If so, we have an extra vote on Magenta Albatross. Could be Culti's investee, if they didn't vote in-thread. If we postulate the same Elim Lightweaver from D3, things get messy since we have a further nullification to factor in - suppose they voted on Gecko. Changing a vote off Gecko gives us +1 to Magenta Albatross at the cost of -2 to the total of 13. If Gecko is still on FotS, -1. A bit too messy, though we could always have complex vote shenanigan interactions. Edited to add: Okay. Suppose our Lightweaver didn't vote and swapped a vote off Gecko to Albatross. If so, we have a one vote deficit. So the possibilities: A) Culti's Investee Sends In Secret Vote on Albatross (A+1) Gecko is on FotS (G-1) = A(2), G(12) B ) Elim Lightweaver voted on Gecko and removes vote off Gecko to Albatross (G-2) Gecko is on FotS (G-1) Note: We now have 10 Gecko votes and are required to postulate Culti's Investee (G+1) and Autonomy (G+1) both voted on Gecko for the numbers to tally. A bit too complicated. C) Elim Lightweaver Didn't Vote, Swapped Off Gecko To Albatross (G-1, A+1) Gecko is on FotS (G-1) Autonomy voted on Gecko (G+1) = A(2), G(12) Personally I favour A or C, no knowledge of which. I favour C slightly more because this shows a common/unchanged MO from the Elim Lightweaver (how do they have enough charges, though?) If we have some idea if whether Autonomy did vote, and on whom, I think we could begin to make sense of the possibilities. C is especially compelling because...a lot of players voted. 15 out of 23. Edited to add #2: Alright, there's technically another possibility where Culti's Investee swaps off Gecko, but this is not fundamentally different from the Elim Lightweaver case, just with the names swapped. There still is something helpful about the possibility, of course.]

Image under cut.

Been pushed back permanently by an hour for the GMs' welfare and mental health. You alright there mate. Had a bit too much to drink?

I am very curious bout this.

[OOC: Ngl I'm considering saying it out in the thread simpliciter. I've been hinting really strongly at it right now and I think a decent chunk of the Village right now are being embarrassingly childish in trying to ostrich their way through this one. It's not rocket science, the Elims already likely have guessed what I'm hinting at, and there's really nothing in keeping this back except self-pleasuring, for which tools exist. Secrecy isn't my hobby and I don't see the need to do it here. But can we still have that PM, or do I need to bribe you into one with the promise of an explanation? ]

@Plum Rhinoceros Emphases mine. For there to have been a kill, Team Odium must needs a player who can wield the kill. Unless you're roleclaiming otherwise, you are a logical suspect because you fit the prerequisites for the kill. As do I. As does Axolotl. Edited to add: Rhino, Gecko because I probably won't be back before the rollover. [OOC]

[OOC: I wasn't going to say it but I'm honestly kind of done with bullcrap right now (not you) so I'll just say — PM me and I'll explain. It involves you so I think you have a stake in knowing. Edited to add: Let's just say, in order not to pointlessly leave the rest of the Village in darkness for nothing more than banal arrogance, that the OC faction kill is a specific type of action that has certain prerequisites. We know the faction kill was role blocked. The logical inference is that all players who are suspects for the roleblock must meet the prerequisites. I do. Axolotl does. Rhino does. Scorpion might. Unclear. ]

AAAAAAAAAAA gdi yes sorry got a bit too deep into Inquisition mode there. imma swap before the rollover, I still want press and discussion, if I don't change it by an hour before feel free to @ me or to execute me in the night / day.

[OOC: Logically speaking, it has to be me, or Axolotl, or Rhino. It is logically impossible for it to be anyone else unless a lot of things have gone wrong. When I say logically impossible, I mean square circle logically impossible. It is theoretically possible for it to be Amethyst Scorpion. I scanned them D2. Scorpion's explanation makes it less possible. If they are telling the truth. Between Axolotl and Rhino, I find Rhino's voting more suspicious: both on the Beagle train and the vote on Opal Lion later retracted after DF vouched for Lion in Shadesmar. My vote remains on Rhino.]

[OOC: @Onyx Flamingo I'm interested in why you are so certain that it must be Violet Axolotl. You are not wrong about Preservation but this indicates to me that we now have a pool of nine who could be the Elim who made the kill and was roleblocked. I suppose in theory we cannot rule out the possibility that Odium was roleblocked during the day, but if Odium was, no one seems to be claiming at all. But guys. We have to remember this. It's not that there's one Elim among us. It's that there is at least one Elim among us. It is possible and I would argue, even plausible, that there is more than one. All we're doing is identifying who might've been the one to have placed the kill and been roleblocked. We shouldn't rely exclusively on that: we should use this as a guide to the suspect pool and then go back to thread behaviour and voting patterns. It's also interesting that, of all players, they did not get Gecko to make the kill - possible they might have expected a roleblocker would've hit Gecko. This is slightly inconsistent with Elim Mercy, since if Elim Mercy could invest in Gecko, so would Odium, and then there's no reason not to get Gecko to do the kill - weakens chances of a target or action scanner picking up on Gecko. Anyway I don't take this as a point against the eventual Gecko execution this day - I'm just thinking aloud in terms of how big our official, formal target pool is in logical space before we can do more selective narrowing down. Ruin has also approached me and requested for a certain protective Shard to contact them via PMing me. You know who you are, and I know what you did D2 I have urged Ruin to identify themselves in the thread and ask for protection here instead as I firmly believe the Elims know who Ruin is, but that is a choice for Ruin themselves to make, and I agreed to pass the message on even if I think relying on a single player is unwise, due to potential protector compromise.]

@little wilson Since you asked — probably philosophical zombies although really the Cognitive doesn't work quite like that given the known connection to Platonic forms yet also not. Not sure if any of the others I @ ed do work in the Greeks — if they do they might have a better idea of the implications of no forms (maybe like no Kantian noumena?) but I do mind so So im not saying it's zombies but it's zombies You're welcome. Ooc somewhere

[OOC: So, the thing is: I don't disagree with this assessment entirely in that I think there is no real execution pressure behind votes on any member of the Shadesmar Eight since everybody 'knows' already who is gonna be removed by the end of this Turn - but I also think if Ruin's investee or someone with a kill item could've acted, Gecko would've likely been already dead last night. Either they were roleblocked, or there just isn't such people. Given that a kill could be lethal (yeah wow brilliant deduction Az give us another one) in the wrong hands, Ruin might not necessarily have wanted to be indiscriminate about it. Say we're running with: A. Elim!Mercy theory rn, and B. the need to get off a removal no matter what. Ruin did us a solid by stopping the Elim kill, but we need the momentum. So we do need a successful removal today, always preferably on an Elim. (Realistically though...) The nice thing is that Mercy can't target the same player twice in a row - if we find out tonight that no one took down Gecko, next cycle could be SSDD again. The downside of course is that our top Shadesmar Eight suspect today might get saved by Mercy again tomorrow, which might be frustrating. I don't for a moment think Elim!Mercy sits and twiddles her thumbs - if we're going Elim!Mercy, then she might swap between the various members of the Elim team. Maybe it's the one making the kill, just in case a target scanner spots them. Or maybe it's the one who attracted the most chatter or did something suss in thread. Regardless... (Of course, now I've said it, she might try to save a Villager in a gambit hoping we'll slay them next, but that comes at a strategic cost for her team.) I guess my bottom line is just two thoughts: I don't think we can always rely on vig kills doing what we want them to do - there used to be a meta that vig kills could function as a second night removal, but that didn't really take off. Sometimes the vigs disagreed, or somethings there's just no vigs to be had. It happens. Second, whether or not Mercy is an Elim (I lean Elim right now), she's going to be a factor we have to adjust to/work around. Contra Violet Axolotl last night, I think it's a bit hard to avoid a potentially Elim!Mercy causing difficulty with discussion of suspicions either from day, night, or PMs, or world docs, but we can at least make her guess and try to structure removals in a way that our top two candidates are still people we'd rather see removed. Sorry if I'm incoherent. Insomnia is one hell of a punch to rationality and coherence. Also, oof your dog, sorry to hear, does this mean you gotta get her something else again? This sounds like exasperated love... Edited to add: @little wilson @Elbereth: @Azure Mouse @Turquoise Gorilla @Chartreuse Penguin you're welcome. Edited to add #2: One other concern I have is that the Elims might have access to protection. Which should be fairly logical in a game where Ruin is coded heavily Village. Making them burn protection charges isn't a bad thing, but like.]

[OOC: tldr; Gecko had a suss D1 vote, fled to First of the Sun, and was saved by Mercy D2 as Mercy invested in them N1, and somehow failed to mention this [=something powerfully lynch-affecting] to the Village, as did Mercy. Sure, Gecko could be the most unlucky person in the Cosmere right now. If so, my apologies, you get a meme. But at some point, you have to ask: how many coincidences is too many? Plus, IMO, given that Gecko is implicated both in D1 voting and D2 voting? As I said, I don't like to execute players for pragmatics but this is a clear case of pragmatics: we need info about Gecko's flip because it will help us shed more light on the events of both days. And I agree with Coral Swan's assessment that Gecko likely tried not to get executed last cycle to hide Mercy's investment, which reflects badly on both Gecko's and Mercy's allegiances. As I said yesterday and I imagine half the thread voting agrees, there is no more interest in trying to mull over Gecko's allegiances. Let's move to the Shadesmar Eight. (As for why they are voting right now when we should be putting pressure on other candidates, beats me.) My personal assessment of the Shadesmar Eight, based strictly off Shadesmar interactions as I haven't had time to do actual voting analysis or pathwalking: negative gut read on Gorilla but cannot find anything rational for it, Hyena has been helpful, lean slight negative on Rhino, null on Dingo, lean slight negative on Dragonfly, lean null to slight negative on Scorpion, and null to weak positive on Iguana. Edited to add: I have a lot of negatives but that's generally because a lot of people didn't say much or said things that were a bit weird but nothing that was a screaming alarm or I'd have, logically, voted on them D2 instead. Edited #2 add: Okay, a bit more - in Gorilla's case, I really can't justify it. It's just gut, and rationally I know Gorilla has been helpful so I would not finger him as an Elim even though something about him sets me off. Sorry Gorilla. For Hyena, helpful and aware of the rules - was technically the inflexion point of the D1 vote, so mildly suss, but giving off Villager vibes otherwise. Rhino is on my cremlist for the same reason as Scorpion, though I'm slightly more positively-minded about Scorpion in relative terms: players who are peripheral and substituting rules/game analysis for suspicions. I get that the rules of the game can be more interesting to players and people should play to their strengths, but it can also be a way of racking up Village brownie points without having to overly-commit to suspicions. Dino has been quiet. Not much of a read off them. Slight negative lean on Dragonfly which admittedly might be paranoia - I think - based off something Dragonfly said that just got a negative gut reaction from me. Iguana, weak positive due to them getting over their Hyena delenda est phase which is a flexibility I don't think an Elim might show due to Hyena's D1 vote]

[OOC: Hyena, Iguana, myself, Gorilla, Dingo, Scorpion, Dragonfly, Rhino. Forgot colours ask me when less tired. Of these, one must be Ruin as Ruin must be on a world to destroy it. Also hello all from hatoful darude hellstorm world where i am currently the only person. lonely i'm mr lonely i am so lonely on my own ;___; ]