GameOfGroans

Oh yes When reading that part, it felt like he was standing there waving that sword over Navani for at least 5 mins while she had quite a discussion and even a sing-song with the Sibling. I don't like that kind of time warps, but BS seems to love them.

This whole series is about flawed characters, the complexity of their hurts, motivations and struggles. RoW especially shows how sometimes things have to get worse and reach the bottom before they get better, how easy it is to stick to habitual and familiar patterns until we find ourselves pushed against the wall with no other option but to change. This is true for most people in real life. Without good role models, most people stumble around trying to play one or more roles, unaware of it, not daring to listen to their true selves. To like Shallan, you need to like complexity and understand humanity on a more than surface level.

Laral certainly has some good qualities but, just, not enough. Kaladin especially needs somebody warm and thoughtful besides strong, somebody who opens up to him and shares feelings, not somebody who cuts him off every time they meet. On a personal level, I'm not sure if this makes me more or less invested in what I read, but I like slow and complex buildup of emotions and romantic tension, which means both characters involved need to be given plenty of POV or at least "screen time". A rushed side story with somebody who barely got a few mentions in 4 books does not appeal to me at all. I don't want to have to imagine all the details, I want the book to take me through them, slowly. Like a good foreplay. Sometimes when the words come from the book they have stronger impact than just the images in my mind, just like real foreplay feels different than imaginary foreplay.

I find it interesting how Hoid losing his memories somewhat mirrors Shallan's holes in memory - and both are Lightweavers, so there might be some parallels there.

Are we defining alignments based on intentions or outcomes? Bc Taravangian's intentions are definitely good, he does bad things bc he believes they are necessary for the greater good (as far as he sees any good possible), suffers for it, but thinks it's better that he suffers guilt, than other people suffering worse outcomes.

I can certainly perceive a lot of similarities between Moash and many people in real life (otherwise wars and a lot of crime would not exist, or barely). Which means he's still very human.

Considering that I dislike womanizers, and Adolin in the first book was certainly described as a womanizer, perhaps without bad intentions but certainly not without a clue about how he hurts people, I mostly rolled my eyes at him through the first book. Adding to that that his other primary interests were fighting and fashion, I thought he was the stupidest and the shallowest of the characters. His friendliness seemed more like a habit than genuine feeling; in the book it was mostly described as external behavior, rather than something that comes from within. In the next two books I tolerated him, but didn't really care to identify with his POV. It's mostly in this book that I kinda started to like him, but more grudgingly than the others.

I don't have enough focus right now to analyze all those things, but just to mention that considering there are supposed to be 10 books in the series, it's unlikely the duel will bring a solution. Except if the last 5 books will start a new but related story some years later with new characters?

I found myself in the same time appreciating and being frustrated by the same things. All of the science and "technical" details are very long parts and while I was rather awed by Brandon inventing a whole new science for his book, some parts of it, especially in part 1, I'd prefer to be more condensed. Part 1 was especially stretched out. I did enjoy the interaction between Navani and Raboniel and what they discovered together. Personally, as I'm not so interested in every detail about the cosmere and didn't read all the side stories and novellas, all those characters I'm not familiar with just jumping out of nowhere for a scene, so many characters just being mentioned and hinted at, was a bit too much - and in the same time I appreciate the sheer scope and complexity. There were so many twists and turns and surprises that as much as I generally like books that don't follow conventions, I was starting to feel a bit drained by it all. Intellectually I enjoyed the unexpected, but emotionally not always. As a psychologist, I appreciated the part when Kaladin takes over the mental health unit, and considering what state was Shallan in at the time, I thought she would end up in his group therapy and they would be able to help each other by sharing deep honesty. Them both finding their health within and independently was again intellectually satisfying, and probably for the best, but not so emotionally satisfying. I loved Adolin - Maya relationship and how the trial went, and the fact that, as it turns out, even spren can go against their own ideal. Which makes me wonder, if a spren betrays their own ideal, do they essentially commit suicide?

It's normal that we all have different "subpersonalities" but they are not so divided that we'd give them separate names and forms. I'd say Veil is now simply a side of Shallan that is more "blended" with her, and in fact, Shallan can use that side of her more freely and spontaneously, in better harmony with the rest of her, rather than having her totally take over every time. I for one am looking forward to see how a more whole and healthy Shallan functions in life (and what parts of her memory are still missing).

I feel Syl more like a sister to Kaladin than a lover, but if we are talking about human-spren romance, I ship Adolin and Maya

I'm curious, what exactly makes you think Veil is more "real" than the others? Do you feel that different types of characters and temperaments are less real?

I have a father very much like that, so here is my perspective: he has great and far reaching ideals, and he feels he knows how the world "should" be and wants to prove to himself and others it is possible, and an important way of proving it is through his children. So when his children choose a different path, it's not just an average disappointment, he feels like his most important dreams are crushing down and feels betrayed and feels life doesn't make sense. He is also, because of his past, very afraid of chaos, and wants to control things strictly to avoid that chaos; that makes him rigid and makes him have a tunnel vision. He cannot easily see the need of people to be different, to experiment and make mistakes. So he feels that people who don't share exactly the same values (even if they share many) are faulty, weak, or deliberately malicious. I know I put a lot of my own experience into it, but this is what I know from real life.

You do. You most definitively do. I put my hand in fire you won't be disappointed. She was my top favorite author until I started reading BS; now the two of them share the top spot. Lois M. Bujold is primarily a big name in science fiction (Vorkosigan saga, one of my favorite if not THE favorite series ever. It includes two "prequels", also excellent, that are about the protagonist's parents, but the best books start with the character Miles Vorkosigan (A Warrior's Apprentice, and on from there)), but she wrote a few excellent fantasy series too ("The Sharing Knife" I mentioned earlier, and "Chalion"). Sadly, I think she must be close to 70 now, so no more new books from her. Even in the last two or so it was visible that her skill was not as it used to be As for my theory that Shallan might be carrying Sja-Anat inside herself, I re-read that part and it might be that I got things wrong, that she was just communicating with Shallan through that mirror - although Shallan hears her voice later too, on one or two occasions. Sja-Anat makes spren similar, but somehow different than they normally are - maybe she can do it with people, too? On the other hand, Pattern would certainly be screaming his curly little head off if that happened, and this explanation would also interfere with Shallan's need to come to grips with her own inner demons. So I was probably wrong.

I don't remember clearly why, but I had a distinct impression that Sja-Anat entered Shallan's body when she tried to chase her away. Would take me a while to find all parts, but when Shallan next looks at herself in a mirror, she sees another woman who is apparently representation of Sja-Anat - also, Shallan after that often hears her voice in her own head... I might need to re-read those parts.

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess. Dalinar's story line was very well done in that context. Considering that at the end of the book Adolin seems to be totally relaxed with killing Sadeas, it seems more about this is yet to come. Sja-Anat ... what do you think about her? Is she subtly influencing Shallan's thoughts and decisions by the end of the book? Shallan didn't seem to object much to Sja-Anat being inside her body, but maybe all that lack of internal stability is not only due to Veil's trauma and battle exhaustion. Did I even get it correctly that Shallan seems to be carrying her inside somehow? She certainly seems to be able to talk with Shallan's inner voice. @Starla, thanks for your comment - the more I know, the more I notice how books can trigger deep reactions in me by connecting to my conscious and unconscious knowledge. Maybe my above question might mean something to you in terms of Shallan's sudden fragmentation and loss of inner power?

Hi PhineasGage, I'd add that in terms of Adolin's murder of Sadeas we need to also consider the morality of his cultural context, not just our own. Just recently, I was quite shocked when a woman from a different culture told me that where she grew up they had nothing quite like Western ethical expectations and moral judgement - she learned to expect people to lie and cheat and such, and so she learned that it's OK for her to lie and cheat too, because it's normal and it's just what people do to each other. She doesn't even want to change that now, she is way too used to such a society and has learned to accept it (although, she is quite power-hungry generally, so she's not necessarily an average representative of her culture). Alethi society is a bit like old Roman military culture (and plenty others) with power and force having priority over people's lives and integrity. Practically nobody bats an eye when Sadeas openly betrays Dalinar and sends so many people to their deaths, there are no consequences by the other highprinces, and no visible anger at him, except of course by the ones he betrayed. In this context, it's easier to understand why Adolin wouldn't think causing a death is such a bad thing - it's absolute normality where he grew up. He's much more concerned about breaking the rule that lighteyes shouldn't kill lighteyes than actual murder. And in the context of his culture, this is the absolutely congruent thing to do. As for marriage between Adolin and Shallan being a bait and switch thing, I was entertaining the thought, but didn't BS already make it pretty clear in his other books that he considers marriage something not to be messed with (he's religious, I think?). Even if he does plan to betray his own canon, it was just sloppily done. So confused, messy and without internal congruence. Disappointment either way. I don't like when writers give up on consistency and credibility just for the sake of a surprise; it shows lack of integrity. Admittedly, one part of me likes the idea that the next Big Truth Shallan is supposed to say might be: "Hey, y'all, my marriage is actually my biggest lie!"

Well, I like how you accept and acknowledge disagreement. Few people in online forums can do it with style.

Hi SLNC, Hm, I never even noticed the thing with sapphire colour. I'm not sure that I want to read so much into it, it feels like dissecting a story with a scalpel. Killing off Adolin would be such a cliche, much more than any of those Shalladin opponents were complaining about. After all the frustration and disappointment of OB, I'm not convinced I'd even welcome another cycle of confusion. For me, BS already irreparably diluted and dismissed what he was building in Book 2; the magic is broken. But yeah, the whole wedding part feels so surreal, with even Shallan's brothers suddenly there, sent by no one else but suddenly benevolent Mraize - kind of feels like the next thing we'll be told it was only Shallan's hallucination or something.

Exactly. That's why I feel that this whole story line is a hasty patch for Sanderson's last-minute change of mind about the ending. It's just so inconsistent, in intellectual, emotional and just plain common sense. Quite a few segments of OB were written like they were a setup for Kaladin and Shallan to deepen their mutual understanding, only to be somehow diluted, left dangling, or patched with something that seemed... forced, vague, not genuine, like an afterthought - total opposite of Book 2. If Sanderson planned from the start to have their bond slowly dissolve, he made an incredibly poor, amateurish job out of it (besides, why then build it in the first place?). So I can only conclude he didn't plan it from the start. I had a thought that Shallan is not quite herself because that Unbound entity from Kholinar Oathbringer gate got into her, but I don't think Sanderson would make such somersaults with relationships, he likes them to be stable and tidy. Besides, in that case I don't think he'd make such a point about Kaladin deciding he was never really in love with her after all. I just don't think Sanderson is the kind of author who enjoys sudden twists and turns for their own sake, not to mention the importance that vows have in this story. I mean, I enjoy intellectual challenge and depth, but I also read with my heart, not just my mind, and I believe Sanderson also writes from his heart, not only his mind. And the heart needs some internal consistency at least. I just don't think he would make such a mess just to please those who want sharp twists without previous emotional buildup. I don't want to grasp to straws just to be disappointed again. Speaking of disappointment, I'll make a very personal comment here, so if you don't care about personal, best to skip the rest of the post. In fact, I'll just hide it all as a spoiler, so read on if you are interested. Thanks to the folks above who welcomed me in their posts - I tried to multiquote them here, but something went wrong, or I didn't yet quite figure out the system.

I thought that most heralds were either dead or crazy, and when Dalinar had almost a complete group with him, that those must be the future new ones. Quite unsatisfying, if he doesn't find a way to make it happen without all that torture, doom and gloom. As for 4th Ideal being how Kal cannot protect everyone, I didn't really have an impression that spren were so realistic and circumstance-considering. They are much more into very black/white ideas.

Hi guys, I'm new here, just finished reading Book 3 (was peeking around a bit after Book 2, but didn't join). I'm actually surprised at the variety of "shipping" around here - I was never much into imagining relationship between barely known characters, or relationships based on one or two lines and details (and I can't say I really care about all the logical, real-life tidbits if they take away from the richness of a story). I enjoy feeling that I'm under both characters' skins (the reason why I don't care much about Tarah, she was just dropped there out of the blue), I enjoy the slow, detailed and complex buildup of connection and understanding that turns into passion, and I like the writer to take me there - my emotions seem stronger when triggered by somebody else's words than my own imagination. That's why this book was so disappointing for me (in this context, at least) after Book 2 seemed to go decidedly in that direction. I mean, Adolin "knows" Shallan and accepts her as who she is? She never even told him about killing her parents, she always played a nice little Vorin girl with him. That was pretty much the whole point of their communication in Book 2. Then after she spends a night in a city in utter despair (after Grund's death) she comes to Adolin and he ... starts talking about fashion?... And then somehow, suddenly, he makes her whole and she "always loved him". Cheap, bland and lame, especially in the hands of otherwise such a skilled writer. I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason. At first I thought Kaladin is supposed to become the new Honor, like something similar with you-probably-know-who in Mistborn. But it seems that Dalinar might be going in that direction. Now I'm not sure, but it doesn't bode well for Kaladin. Especially considering the story about the man racing the storm that he and Wit told in Book 2, in which the racer dies, but "his spirit moves on", and Wit says, basically, it's Kaladin's story. Storms. I hate when main characters die, it makes the whole book feel rather empty and pointless. I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned that way, but feelings don't choose fashion. I can't imagine there will be any divorce/cheating/anything to change the current state of affairs, with Radiants, especially Honor-bound, being so heavy on oaths and all. And now that I've been thoroughly denied a nice, slow, elaborate and intense romance, I guess I have to go back to Bujold's The Sharing Knife to give me what I crave. It's quite uncommon that I find somebody who can evoke truly deep and not cheap-sounding emotions, and she does it really well.