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Hey @PhineasGage good to see you here I find it ironic that I independently came to the same conclusion of 9 Unmade linked to the 9 Heralds quitting the Oathpact, but it took me a mention of yours, to actually revisit it in my mind and find this thread. Your quote being in the ASK thread of course: I do not understand why people link the number of Desolations with the number of the Unmade though. If you dismiss that bit as irrelevant, it could still stand that the Unmade were made during the Desolations, along with the Heralds. Then 'unmade' by Aharietiam, when the Heralds broke their oath. That's why they are 9 in the first place. As for the "The appearance of Midnight Essence was also a sign of an upcoming Desolation" from The Way of Kings chapter 19: that could potentially be The False Desolation instead of the original Desolations. The False one happened after Aharietiam (that's why it's The False) and that's actually when the first evidence occurs that The Unmade came into existence.

So to me this is really important. It means that OSDD is still the best fit for Shallan @PhineasGage I like how you have given us the professional's opinion on Shallan's disorder and I find it quite interesting on how it explains it in detail. But have in mind that OSDD is not of general knowledge, so even if there is a logical, scientific explanation on a par with her behavior, it doesn't mean that the solution is clear to the average reader. BS will need to "do a good job" and build up this narrative, in order to "get people on board with it" (referencing cheesy ending WoB). And that will be the big challenge now since he has convinced people that she is "happily ever after" with Adolin. I don't think the fact that a time-skip should direct our conclusions one way or another. On one side, as you are stating, it can be used as 'a time of calm', before the issues start developing, but on the other hand he might as well describe the state of things a year later having a huge contrast to OB's ending, then flashback into the interesting bits that happened in the last year, that lead to that outcome. He can wiggle out his way either one way or another really. I'm still not certainly sure if there will be a divorce at some point yet, but I'd like it if there was a realistic view into marriage. The 'happy marriage' isn't something that people conclude to on their wedding day, that's for children's stories. The real troubles and problems start once you are married and the masks of perfection drop. The wedding is only the beginning of the journey. Now on Adolin's predisposition, I'd find it interesting if he broke the expectations of becoming an Edgedancer. Mayalaran was not attracted to him in the first place and it's not an easy task to bond a dead spren. I think he could potentially become a tragic character, because he wants so badly to become a KR, that he sets on an impossible task, of reviving Mayalaran, only to be disappointed further on. And as much as this could surprise you, I would also like him to be redeemed into becoming a Willshaper instead. Taking these bits from Coppermind: "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." could explain his womanizing years, his interest in Shallan, wanting to become a KR and his desire of reviving Mayalaran, Maybe?

Regarding where I see the Sandermuda plot going on next books (spoiler tag for known reasons)

We find Shallan an interesting character because she has that innate ability to suppress bad memories and feelings about herself and her reality. Pattern is attracted to her for the same exact reason. Now what complicates her even more is that she is a KR, so instead of finding balance in suppression (like us twisted mortals) she needs to search and find and accept the true truth. If we want our KR's A-team to defeat the Last Desolation, they have to become not as powerful as the Heralds, but even surpass them. edit: These facts prove that Shallan's self-growth is far far from over, this growth is one of the most interesting character developments, and it is not over yet. "deliberately delude yourself" is a paradox. If it's deliberate you aren't really deluding yourself, you are pretending. If you are deluding yourself, it's not deliberate. I do not understand this obsession with finding 2nd, 3rd, 4th Ideal in Lightweavers. Lightweavers do not have Ideals, only one Ideal, the 1st. They might gain and lose abilities based on which truths they accept and how powerful those truths are, relevant to their self-awareness. It doesn't have to be in a specific order 1-2-3. It's like a huge checklist of things with different weight in value, where you can regress in some of those truths but not in others. For example, the fact that she used Pattern in killing her parents, made her regress into not being able to use Pattern. That specific truth and that specific power are interconnected. Though all these WoB trickling in are making it increasingly difficult to not accept that, despite all the text to the contrary, most of what we saw about this resolution in OB should be taken at face value. Shallan is on the road to recovery, and with just a little bit of helpful love and support from her man, she's gonna get there. The thing is, just because Wit sees Shallan being on the road to recovery, that doesn't mean he is fully aware of what the real truth of her is. Only she can know the real truths about herself (and/or Pattern). 'On the road to recovery' could potentially mean that she has started searching for the truth (the first step) and not necessarily making progress on her self awareness. He cannot know if marriage is the right thing for her, but she has at least started moving. I know exactly what you mean, I will say that I have barely been functioning in real life this last week and my posts keep contradicting one another because I've been going through a "denial" to/from "false hope" cycle over and over in my mind. I know that doesn't sound like evidence that I am sane and that you should trust my judgement, but last night I came to the conclusion that even if I'm crazy, that's okay. I prefer to be on this side of the argument. So, yes, I've finally requested passage on the S.S. but in the cargo area, on the third level, in a box, where people are destined to die puking their guts out before even the ship manages to sink in the notorious Sandermuda triangle. I've been told that they don't have boxes left for people destined to die with the ship - they ran out when they realized it was going to be all of us. So maybe instead of being in a box, could I be the box? Everything has a spren after all.

Also.. Could that indicate a connection to Vasher as well?

I know I've been silent in the last few pages, but I'm still watching this and I have to say.... We might as well rename the thread to ASK 2 - Return of the Ship

The story with the Natan queen (the one that says why the Natan people have blue skin) reminded me of 'The Boy who Stole the Moon'. And I think it was mentioned twice in OB. Actually, I did mention in some other thread (can't remember now sorry) that the girl's hair are white when she's climbing the wall. And somewhere it is said that Hoid has white hair even though he dyes it all the time. (Coppermind wiki)

I cried when I realized it was Evi's screams in the safe house and I cried when Elhokar was about to say his oaths but didn't make it through No happy cries for me, for some reason.

Nope, my acceptance is that I'm staring to dislike Shallan as a character.

I honestly, do not feel that Shallan should end up with Kaladin at this moment, simply because there is nothing particular actually happening there. It's all 'he's looking at me/ she's looking at me' but that doesn't justify it as a romance to me. But, the romance with Adolin doesn't convince me either. It doesn't have the depth I would expect for a strong main female character, to decide on getting married. It's just weak. Seriously, what kind of desire do you have towards a person but you tell them 'I'm letting him have you' ? How can a serious relationship, actually be on the brink of break up just because 'I've seen you how you look at him'? What is this? Elementary school? So, no. I don't think it's the 'romance with Adolin and Kaladin' that makes this bit aggravating, but the 'romance' part. There is no romance depth with either two options. And even though Shallan was build up as a smart and bold character in the previous books, now she runs and hides behind a marriage. I hate that. edit: And I'd appreciate if this didn't become the second Adolin-Shallan-Kalladin thread. Thanks.

Hoid is there to make you want to understand him. To make you want to read the rest of the books. To appreciate all the bits and details of the Cosmere and the lore it's surrounded by. To understand Hoid is to earn all of the Achievements in the game, so to speak. Personally, I've read a lot of BS books but not all of them, so I do not even know if my original assumption of Hoid is correct. My personal theory is this: Hoid has existed even before the Shattering so maybe he is trying to reverse that Shattering. Maybe merge all the Shards. Maybe he wants to bring the Almighty back. Maybe restore a universe without magic. The fact that he opposes Odium might mean he is trying to merge the power together instead of destroying it. But he obviously cannot do it actively, but only guide the forces and the people involved into merging together by themselves. I love this bit! xD

Oh I remember that! And yes, it pissed me off when I realized it and I felt toyed and disappointed! No wonder his editors go crazy. At least, I can keep faith from this answer that he is aware that this is not the perfectly sensible thing to do. (I'm Mrs. Brightside)

I agree that at the end of OB she has the authority and she manages to rule them, but I don't think that was Wit's advice. Maybe Wit inside Ashertmarn wasn't the real one? From 'The girl who stood up'-point until her confrontation with Ashertmarn, none of the other two personalities emerged. And they didn't emerge for some time after that as well, but I'll come back to that later. So it was like she was starting to get better, but the advice to 'rule' them confused her. I agree that they are not equally important, BUT the dominant-Shallan personality is not a whole personality. I've been thinking a lot about the hat Wit gave her, and I think it is a sign as to look on 'when' she started creating these personalities, so she can understand what part of her they represent. How I intepret the personalities is: Veil is the one that 'does what Shallan wants, but it's not socially acceptable' and Radiant 'does what Shallan doesn't want, but it's what is socially acceptable'. Veil listens to her urges, she doesn't have inhibitions, emerges in the thrill of espionage and expresses herself crudely. Radiant was created when Shallan was rushed to use Pattern-blade for practice, even though she was feeling afraid of him after realizing the truths about her parent's deaths. But using Pattern-blade was a reality she would have to accept as part of being a KR. I think the fact that both Veil and Radiant still exist separately from Shallan, is proof that she hasn't made progress. Actually I can argue the same thing back to you, but let's keep it civil. It's much more appealing to push responsibilities on another person, but you never gain the pride of accomplishment when someone else fulfills them. It's much more appealing to let another person do all the urges and mistakes, but you never get the chance to release and express yourself freely. (don't forget that she believes Veil as 'broken' at this point and that's what initiates the whole conversation) edit: And it's more appealing to separate them from herself, because she hasn't forgiven herself, and her self-hate wants them as separate beings. She believes they are better than her, that's why they can't be a part of her hateful self. I agree with the rest of what you say apart from "stop creating personalities to please other people" Again, you've taken the phrase out of context I think. She want's to be selfless for the people around her, when she uses her powers. Yes, the personalities revolve around how people 'see Shallan as'. See my second point above.

Wow, Sorry about that! I have no idea how you got linked there, I just used "Quote this". Can we assume that these humanoids are the ones that spoke Dawnchant and the original inhabitants of Roshar?

How do we know both of these points exactly?

Yeah, I've gone on my own tangent above, I'll just make another theory post.

So... maybe the Cultivation is trapped inside it?

Yes, I did watch this actually a few months ago (even my browser resumed the playback from where I left it) and this video could partly be why I've been having such a strong foreshadowing feeling about the whole KSA thing. Thanks for posting this here, I'm sure it will bring hope to a lot of people.

Well, she's certainly happy at the end. Honestly, I do not think she is happy at the end. If a part of her is happy, it's only 1/3 since Veil and Radiant did not chose to get married to Adolin in the end. Instead they remain a separate part of her. And actually Wit didn't encourage her to be happy exactly. She was encouraging her to use her power for herself and not only for other the people around her. So I would argue that he wanted her to be less self-sacrificing. As in, stop creating personalities to please other people. And the fact that she belittles herself and if her opinion matter is something repeated in OB. I think you missed the meaning of what "that" refers to. "That has always been you" refers to the "I see only one woman here,”, meaning all these personalities are one person. They aren't separate people. I agree. I think this is what handing her Veil's hat signifies. It means, "Remember where you got this hat? You got it from Bluth. That's back when when you were inspired to create Veil, as another part of herself. You need to go back to the point where you got this hat". In Chapter 42 of WoR, it says: I think I've already established that I agree with you on most points @SLNC on the KSA thread. I wanted to see more arguments on the opposite side to be honest. Yes, I agree with you completely on this. And I understand how it is all cringe-worthy from a feminist point of view as well @Dreamstorm

When Shallan was in Urithiru practicing lightweaving in a theatre, while she was saying the story of "The girl who looked up" to Pattern, the girl in her illusion had white hair when she was climbing the wall. I've looked it up in coppermind.net and the only one I can find with white hair is Hoid (but he usually dyes it). Now, I'm not sure if there is a link here, or maybe it's a link to the Royal Locks, (or both?) meaning that the girl became afraid when she was climbing the wall, but I'd love to hear your thoughts about it and whether you think it could be linked to this topic's theory. OB: Chapter 25: The girl who looked up: WOK: Interlude I-1: Ishikk

Is that Bluth's hat from WoR?

In your opinion, did Shallan understand Wit's advice and did she take the correct steps based on that advice? Did she achieve what she needed, or is she on a journey towards it? Do you think Adolin helps her through this process and if yes, how exactly?

Yes, just like Nergaoul/Thrill did with Dalinar.

Sorry if I'm re-opening a closed thread, but I didn't see this earlier and I've been trying to figure out if Wit's advice to Shallan was interpreted correctly. @SLNC nice catch! When I read this part in the book I was confused. First I assumed she was remembering his advice. But, usually when people remember words being said to them, don't they remember the exact phrase? Here the words were elaborated further. So when the meaning was explained as 'you need to rule them' where I was expecting 'you need to accept them', I realized this surely wasn't from memory. This was a new thought. Then I noticed that she first asks 'Wit?' as in, she is surprised to hear him so this could possibly mean that this new thought is not exactly hers or if it's hers, she's not in complete control of it, as in, it could've been corrupted from an outside source. I think a lot of the arguments on this thread revolve around Odium and Wit, but I do not think either of them were a part of this scene. She was laid bare to Ashertmarn, not Odium. Yes, the Unmade are a part of Odium but that doesn't necessarily mean he fully controls them. Don't forget that Sja-anat tried to contact Shallan without being discovered by Odium. So it's possible he wasn't part of this conversation either. And those who fall under Ashertmarn's influence are driven to total mindless indulgence, abandoning their lives and responsibilities in favor of the revel. So Shallan could be manipulated into the revel of ruling her personalities instead of accepting them as a responsibility, even without Odiums interference. Oh and I never even considered that Wit could talk to her telepathically. That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Because if he did have this power, why didn't he do it on other crucial moments? Why did he have to meet her in person in the first place? He is hiding after all, isn't he?

Yes, I am more worried of what happens if they are not addressed, so my way of handling it is to look hard into evidence and facts and try to cross reference as to what adds up. If I can find evidence that these issues are more likely to be addressed in the future, I will be convinced that everything is okay and I do not have to worry about it. That is why I go back and over analyse bits and pieces and trying to keep my personal feelings out of it. Facts somehow should lead to the truth, right? I do not accept BS would go into so much trouble to write Shallan but resolve her story just like this. And he is an author that deliberately uses foreshadowing elements and comes back to them constantly. Frankly, I think that Wit's intervention and advice is the closest to BS talking in person through the books. So it all comes down to the question "Did Shallan understand his advice and are her choices exactly what he advised her to do? Or was he misunderstood, and her choices will eventually be revealed as tragically wrong?"