Bliev

16 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I think the fact we go so little of Lirins thoughts about Tian speaks volumes about their relationship, Liran made it very clear that his focus was solely on Kaladins future, giving him zero say in it. With Tian, he’s just like, yeah do whatever.

I just figured it was because every thing we see of Lirin is via Kaladin’s POV. And I feel like if Kal thought Tien was ignored and such by Lirin he wouldn’t have respected his father the way he does, personally. We don’t know anything about what he says to Tien except as reported out by Kal. So I don’t think we can make those assumptions about his feelings without his POVs. I can see why you would interpret it that way; I just read it very very differently.

11 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Staying to care for refugees post-Everstorm is a different story. That duty I understand. I'm only saying Liran should've left pre-Tien/Kaladin going to war. 

From what I remember, Lirin did not trust that Roshone *would* have taken  care of the people of Hearthstone, and he felt a responsibility for them. And he truly believed that he would bear the brunt of Roshone's hatred, and was fine holding that. He thought in a short time Kaladin would escape to his future, and never at all thought that Tien would be conscripted at that age. Maybe it was shortsighted of him not to truly see the depth of Roshne's depravity. But I wouldn't call it selfish, personally. I also tried to look back for in text evidence that Tien was overlooked by his father. It seemed that he was trying to respect Tien's inability to do the job, not that he resented him or ignored him for it.

With that said, I think this is probably a really perfect example of just how differently people can read the same characters, and the same text. And I think that's okay too.

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Also keep in mind, Lirin doesn't see everything we see. He doesn't see Kaladin's struggles, only Kaladin's glory. His son went off to war, got rewarded for it and now thinks war is the answer. That's what Lirin sees.

This is an incredibly compelling point, I think. We have seen Kaladin through so very much. We even meet Lirin through his eyes. We know his internal struggles better than any other character, and in some ways, probably better than Kaladin himself even does. 

I can't imagine ever saying to my kids with Lirin says to Kaladin in RoW. I would consider myself a failure as a parent if I ever did. But that doesn't mean i would *be*  a failure as a parent. It means I made a mistake. Lirin made a terrible mistake. But he loved Kaladin throughout his entire life, bore the guilt for his and Tien's deaths for years, knowing he was the reason they went to war. Then his joy is tainted  by the knowledge that the boy who couldn't stand to see blood and cried for ever person they lost was a Shardbearer of destruction. Yes, Kaladin kills to protect. But that is antithetical to Lirin's mind. He cannot fathom it. Much as Dalinar cannot fathom Adolin killing Sadeas as "honorable" even though there are spren who would disagree (as per wob). 

I appreciate  that there are people who feel pained by Lirin's behavior here, and I think we should feel that pain. It was a painful experience. But both Kaladin and Lirin grew from it, and I think that's important too. 

Just now, Greywatch said:

I can see similarities but I wouldn't go this far. Dalinar has known for a long time he wasn't a good father; Lirin wasn't self-aware of the degree to which he was the problem, and in his head, made it Kaladin's fault that their relationship fell apart. Dalinar might want Adolin to be better, but even he didn't do what Lirin did.

True. I may have gone a bit far with that. :-) 

I do think they are fundamentally similar though, and I don't think that Dalinar believes he's being a poor father *now*, so I'll retain that component. There's plenty of  want of self-awareness to go around here, that's for sure. I just want to see a similar understanding between Adolin and Dalinar as we just saw between Kal and Lirin so badly. 

7 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I think the only good Cosmere dad we've seen is Dalinar, and that took shardic intervention.

Dalinar is the same as Lirin lol. He's fundamentally disappointed in his son's life choices and thinks he is treading down a dangerous path devoid of Honor. They're both dogmatic and rigid. Dalinar couldn't even look his sons in the eyes and admit he killed their mom. Look, I love me some Dalinar, but good dad he is not.  

Yet. Let's see if he can fix his relationship with Adolin in Book 5. 

So I tried to look at the final terms they agreed upon and look for the loophole.

Quote

“Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.” “Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.” “And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.” “It is done.”

1. I thought perhaps it was the "10th day of the month  Palah, tenth hour." It does NOT say which month Palah, right? Perhaps Todium decides to put it off because he DOESN'T feel the need to have a battle of champions like Rayse did so quickly?
2. A willing champion: It doesn't say a champion can't be insane or tricked, so perhaps Todium tricks Ishar into being his champion, willingly of course, since Ishar thinks Dalinar's on the *OTHER* side, and you get chained Bondsmith vs. unchained Bondsmith.
3. An immortal champion. If Dalinar dies first, he loses. So choose a champion who cannot be killed in the normal way, say, a Sleepless? Or perhaps "El" his Fused? 

The catch here will be either Dalinar will become Todium's "property" forevermore, or Navani will need to poof away his soul with some anti-light right quick when that happens. Just saying...

7 hours ago, Seloun said:

The series from Kaladin's perspective is literally him becoming his dad. Who might be figuratively if not literally Honor. Basically, it's weird to hate Lirin when one considers that he's essentially Kaladin's Ideal. Is Lirin perfect? No. But it's easy to make an argument that, at his best, he's the best example of a moral person in the entire series.

I love this analysis, thank you. I think Lirin is only getting the hate he is because so for so many, Kaladin is their favorite and even their avatar in this series. Perhaps I can see this connection more because Kaladin isn't my favorite character and so I am not wrapped up so much in his emotions. Lirin made mistakes in how he interacted with his son. He acted poorly. But Kaladin also made mistakes. And this book really showed them doing the work to be less stubborn and dogmatic and more understanding of one another, while also not compromising their own principles. It was really well done, I think.

In fact, Dalinar could learn a lot from Lirin here in how he accepts Adolin. Because if you want to talk about bad fathers...

2 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Not everyone needs to have soul crushing backgrounds.  But following the journey of someone whose biggest flaw is that “sometimes he feels that his father is smothering him” is really exhausting to read.  I would be thrilled if Adolin’s future arc will involve him degenerating as a character.  Unfortunately, for the past four books he has remained the poster child for the “dashing knight in shining armor” trope that Sanderson said he wanted to subvert.  His murder of Sadeas is swept under the rug, and is presented as justified (after all it was Sadeas).  Even though he was initially portrayed in Way of Kings as a man who eventually neglected his various girlfriends, Adolin is now the perfect husband to Shallan.  So how can Adolin grow as a character?  He is already practically flawless.  Learning to cope with the expectations of his father is not enough of a reason to give Adolin so much screen time.

See, I see what you just said as growth. He was more vain and shallow, he grew to be deeper and committed. He was first worried about Dalinar's sanity as a reflection of Alethi might, now he sees his father more clearly and the problems with the "way Alethi do things" more clearly. His murder of Sadeas isn't swept under the rug, he owns it, doesn't regret it, and it still is the reason that Dalinar is disappointed in him. He actually is worried Adolin is going to become Taravangian! Adolin gets screen time mostly, up until now, because we see him through the eyes of the mains. He's a bridge to them all. He sees them. He is a *good person* and that alone is interesting in its way, for me. 

Also, him chafing up against his desire to support Shallan and his need to prove to his father that he's not a disappointment ended up driving much of the B plot in this book, which was a pretty important arc.  

I do appreciate that other people feel that it's boring. Everyone has a right to what they like! (Like for instance, this being the first book that I was truly affected by Kaladin's arc when I wasn't nearly as captivated by it in other books--I often skip Bridge 4 sections on re-reads--and loving Shallan's arc all the way through, and being really irritated by the fact that DALINAR IS A HORRIBLE FATHER but is supposed to be the savior of the world el oh el.) And perhaps, as I said above, it's somewhat projection, but let's play a little mental exercise: are we saying that if, say, I have my life "together": have a great job, and a loving family, and am supportive of others and happy and generous that I have no growth left? That my story is no longer interesting? Perhaps growth is not always about slaying internal demons, but connections with others and reaction to future conflicts as well. I think his "learning to cope with the expectations of his father" is probably the biggest issue here that you lay as minor, but which is certainly something Dalinar MUST confront. How do you progress as a bondsmiith if you can't own up to your failures in connecting with your only son? How can you save the world if you can't accept him? And how can Adolin learn to be his own person while standing in such a shadow? I see that as infinitely exciting. 

@TheHidelSubldies I totally agree with some of this—I want to see his internal narrative more. But I also feel that way about Jasnah, Szeth, Lift, Renarin, etc. Adolin is in our narrative more often because of his proximity to two mains, Dalinar and Shallan, but I don’t think that means he hasn’t been dealing with his issues, just that Brandon hasn’t saw fit to show that journey because there are others to show. I think the clues are there when, and if, he decides to do so.

I also think it’s not clear that he’s avoiding and repressing like, say, Shallan does. He should definitely address Dalinar directly, and I’d love to see that be part of Dalinar’s possible leveling up in book 5–he has to connect with his son and handle his own house before trying to save the world. 

For example, the scene in part 1 where Adolin and Dalinar and crew are in the strategizing meeting, when Adolin is indeed acting petulant, where Shallan intercedes. Shallan knows how he feels. It seems they talk about almost everything. He’s not dissociating, just being selective with what he shares with whom. So even if he’s not telling Dalinar how he feels, or he’s “shoving down the seething knot”  that doesn’t mean he’s not emotionally stable about it, it just means he doesn’t want to deal with it right then. He’s aware of his emotions and aware of why he feels the way he does. He also knows the consequences for bringing it up at that moment. Being self aware doesn’t mean you don’t feel things or make mistakes, but it does mean you can often deal with those issues as they arrive because you aren’t trying to lie to yourself. 

I think, as per Navani, Shallan is as good for Adolin as he is for her, because he’s learned to be his own man, whatever that means.

with that said, I’m more concerned with how poorly Dalinar treats Adolin and how little he has sought to rectify and connect with Adolin in the intervening year. Dalinar may have grown in his own self awareness but he has not tried to “unite” himself with his own son, he didn’t even tell them about Evi himself! 
 

if you ask me, Dalinar’s inability to move forwards with his powers is precisely because of this.

ETA: just dawned on me how in some ways Dalinar is acting like Lirin here, trying to make his son act in accordance with his goals and values; being disappointed in him, treating him with disdain. It’s funny how who we identify with changes our perceptions I think. 

9 hours ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

Even though I like his character a great deal, my main issue with Adolin is often based on the fact the his humanity is often sidelined for the purpose of furthering the plot or enabling the growth and development of others. The result of that however is him lacking depth by comparing him with the remaining characters, both primary and secondary. His reactions are limited to being only what the plot demands of him, not what would feel natural for a person who has lived and experienced all that he has, unlike the other characters in the story.

I’ve seen this opinion a lot, and I appreciate that it’s a common one in the fandom. My favorite Adolin-hater friend will surely be along shortly to tell me all the ways I’m wrong, I’m sure. ;-)

But I read him with more depth and nuance than many seem to, perhaps because his colors are in more muted shades than our main characters. There’s subtext, and fewer viewpoints, and we are often seeing him through the eyes of our (often struggling) main cast. We see him in Dalinar’s flashbacks as the perfect, eager son. We don’t see his feelings dealing with his mother’s death or his angry, alcoholic father. We see him in WoR via Shallan as a perfect Adonis with the perfect life. We see him via Kal’s eyes as the spoiled lordling with no sense of how the masses struggle. But in the moments we read his POVs, I read the insecurity and jealousy in them, almost from the beginning. Polishing Maya before his duels in WoR he talks about how little people expect of him and how hard it is to live in his fathers shadow, all while never letting himself resent Dalinar. His anger at Sadeas and his betrayal. His fear in Shadesmar and his emotions during the battle at Thaylan Fields. And he was downright resentful toward Dalinar in RoW—and set out to prove himself in a way that almost got himself imprisoned. And yet, yes, he is emotionally stable, and agreeable, and conscientious. But as I’ve said in other threads on this, I feel like still waters often run deep, and I read the Adolin chapters with more shades of gray than many do, apparently. Perhaps it’s because I’m used to the similar reactions from others, even close friends!, who think my life is perfect when it is decidedly not. As my fav Adolin-hating poster here said once, “Bliev, you’re projecting.” Perhaps. But we all read them through our own lenses. And I certainly identify.

on topic, though, I don’t think we will see Adolin the radiant, because  Adolin is a committed man, and Maya is his choice. And I’m not sure if she’d be able to bond again in that way, or if Adolin would ever push her to do so, even if she could. 

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I don't think CUltivation and Wit are friends so I don't think she would tell him much. 

My apologies I was totally unclear lol. I meant if odium/honor became a combo shard, perhaps even all 3. Which is unlikely but possible at the end of book 5.

49 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I am beginning to think it is Odium and Cultivation teamed up. 

Perhaps the joint shard? A combo? But I’d wonder why wit wouldn’t have informed him of that happening if it did...unless his memory was corrupted.

Odium is not a shard of pure passion though. No matter what Rayse said. And we know that Rayse chose this path/shard as well per Hoid’s letter. So I’m thinking it’s less the “passion” thing and more the veering away from pure hatred/chaos thing that matters.

I often hearken back to the “weight of God’s own divine hatred,” divorced from the context which tempered it. So what does “god” hate? Perhaps human frailty and human weakness, anger at those who thwart him, hatred of murder and lust and covetousness. But without the other shards as context, perhaps it’s just seething anger and resentment? Perhaps that’s why it liked Sja-Anat’s “passion” because it was directed via her resentment at Odium’s restrictions? Maybe that’s why the thrill feeds on the kill...and maybe that’s why odium felt the need to spin that intent into a separate unmade? Because it clouded his ability to strategize?

33 minutes ago, Honorless said:

But on the other hand...

Raysium looks nothing like Trellium

So true. Perhaps it’s another shard that harmony reached out to, or that they couldn’t find? Someone allied with odium/autonomy?

I wonder because I’ve assumed that Trell is an avatar but I’m less sure of that now. Could an avatar have its own god metal? What if Trell is Invention (eg wob: “Trell has been many things over the eons”)? Maybe harmony making his initial overtures spooked him, and though he’s been active all around the Cosmere forever, he’s now coming in force?

(The more I type the less I believe this to be true, but I do think perhaps we have been thinking too narrowly based on the fact that Wit hates Rayse and Bavadin...)

10 hours ago, Nesh said:

Well it depends on the war.  There can be on faction that has moral highground pver another.

I agree completely. I’m guessing the end of the first arc of SA will give us some hint as to what the sides are...and who’s the moral victor for sure.

But my guess is, per our skybreaker friend, the “children in the war zone” are unable to be so morally reflective, as bombs from either side will kill them. 

5 hours ago, Nesh said:

It kind of bothers me that both the Scadrians and Rosharans are bad guys...  Of course, there's probably more to it than what the First of the Sunners know.

Are there any purely “good guys” in a war? There are perhaps good motivations and bad ones, but in the end, both sides surely see themselves as the virtuous ones, and some colonialist domination is really for their own good. I would Imagine that, like most colonial powers, both sides see First of the Sun as populated by backwater savages whose lives they’ve made better through technology, and who don’t even need that magic, really, so what does it harm them to take it?

I will say that, with our Skybreaker friend here, the war looks pretty clear cut: it’s Roshar v Scadrial (plus allies I’m sure) and both probably want aviar to win...
 

Perhaps our friends the Sleepless have some who watch and collect such things that are connected to proto Radiants? We know they’ve been watching our core characters per the back of book blurbs...

I assumed that his absence was a big ol’ flag of foreshadowing what we got confirmed in part 1 of RoW: no spren wanted him. His outsider status was brought up in OB and his being left out of the story was likely a harbinger of the fact that we was, indeed, left out of Bridge 4 from then on out for the most part. Their journeys diverged. 
 

we see Rlain’s work in RoW and realize just how far from the action he had flown, and still how little Kaladin understood his feelings, which I think was meant to make us feel for him all the more when the Tower was invaded and he was accepted by neither the invaded or the invaders. I’m glad renarin remembered him in the end with an “enlightened” truthwatcher spren. He deserves it.

Although I know BS may have “canonized” ace+heteroromantic for Jasnah, it doesn’t seem unlikely to me that her intellectual attraction wouldn’t also extend to a woman, in a biromantic way, at least as I read her in text. If there were a woman who stimulated her intellect in a similar way, it seems likely to me that she would approach that relationship as her one with Wit. 

Edit: which is to say, I’m proceeding with my own head canon on this. 

1 hour ago, Autobrecciation said:

Saw this quote in another thread, and it made me think about how T-Odium said he was going to "Save them all"... could be another way that he will do this. Essentially, Odium and Dalinar's fight is over with the death of Rayse. Continuing on with the contest of champions seems like an interesting backdrop to trap the shard Odium in the Rosharan system, but what if with the new vessel, Taravangian isn't going to follow Rayse's plan of becoming the king of the hill?

I’m thinking of Sja-Anat’s interlude:

Quote

However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion. There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

I imagine that Rayse was trying to be too strategic here. So long as he was attacking with the force of passion, he seemed to be okay. But when he became to divorced from the power, he became weaker.

I think that this is the same that T will find. Saying “I want to save them all” is not at all aligned with the power, it seems? So how will that play out?

I vacillate on this so so much, and surely I will do so more as time goes on and I re-read the series yet again, but I’m wondering about this that Ishar says:

Quote

“I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself. I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.”

He doesn’t say “Connection to Cultivation” but we know she fiddled with his spirit web too, and immediately after he says that we see Dalinar’s POV again so who knows if there was also a Cultivation connection there to sense. 
 

Who better to combine three shards than someone connected to them all? A shard of Colonialism and Conquest that combines growth/rules/hatred? It would not be a very satisfying ending for me, but could happen. 
 

Alternatively, if Odium is freed but Roshar is saved via an ascendency of Dalinar to Honor, I envision Cultivation being the architect of that and her motivations not being made clear until the Back 5 (where Lift is a main character and she is groomed to be the new Vessel of Cultivation) and Jasnah seeks to find out how to use her knowledge to save the Cosmere. 
 

Im using some hints from the excerpt from the Sixth of the Dust short story in the most recent newsletter for this, but given the timeline is likely hundreds of years in the future, it’s probably not as closely linked as I think. Lol

3 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

I think Cultivation is done for.  Rayse said that she was hiding from him, but she presented herself to Taravangian right after he took up Odium.  I’m convinced that Taravangian will continue to hunt Shards, and he could easily blindside Cultivation and take her out right now.  

Cultivation is better than Honor at future sight, and it’s unclear how well Odium sees the future. So I doubt cultivation will be blindsided. I do agree that T will continue the plan, and may try to take out Cultivation, and even may succeed, but I’m doubtful that she’ll be unprepared for it.

14 hours ago, Honorless said:

And Odium as a Shard, is better not being helmed by a Vessel or left alone to develop a mind. The only options are to Splinter it or...  needs to be combined with another Intent and contextualized.

The next book is Szeth's. It's supposed to have an Oathbringer-like ending, iirc. The contest of champions is not done yet. Then the Back 5. There will be a reprieve

I keep thinking combination is key, as foreshadowed by the entire Raboniel/Navani arc. Harmonies, as others have said. The issue is how fast will this happen. The champion battle is in 10 days, so I doubt we will get much more by way of radiant leveling up. But we have to get the whole Chasmfiend mystery resolved with the Singers, Szeth ha to cleanse Shinovar, Kaladin has to travel to Shadesmar to get Ishar, Dalinar has to warn the spren of what Ishar has been experimenting with, and, oh yeah, ghost bloods. So, a LOT needs resolving if book 5 is going to wrap up the major arcs in a satisfactory way. Some mysteries may be allowed to persist but I can’t imagine him concluding the arc without a satisfactory conclusion to our main 5’s journey. 
 

which brings me to nightblood. It’s supposed to play a critical role, hence Warbreaker as “prequel”, and now we see why. But NB’s journey can’t well be ended right now. Too many mysteries remaining.
like the fact that THE NIGHTWATCHER AND CULTIVATION HAD THE SWORD BEFORE NALE GOT IT. yet another one of Cultivation’s little seeds she’s planted? I think so. Szeth was supposed to have NB at that moment. So now what does Cultivation see. Because she’s doing the absolute most right now.

4 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

I think its the Nightwatcher.  We know that the oldest spren had 4 genders, and that they were cognitive creations of the Singers.  Cultivation certainly predates humanity's arrival on Roshar.  The Nightwatcher meets visitors to the Valley to learn to understand humans better.  The Nightwatcher is on the same level as the Stormfather, who can accept the Words.  Therefore, it is likely the Nightwatcher, as she seems to check all the boxes.

Venli hears:

Quote

A distant sensation struck her, a femalen voice, so very far away—but thrumming with the pure rhythm of Roshar. These words, it said, are not accepted. Not accepted? 

The fact that she’s in the tower; but the voice is far away, and strictly femalen, indicates that it’s not the Sibling. 
 

The “pure rhythm” is related to the “old rhythms of Roshar” which suggest Cultivation. I don’t see that it would be the NW who, from our knowledge in oathbringer is still a spren like the Stormfather used to be before Honor died and not all that sensible to humanity. Definitely not sensible enough to determine the rightness of the oaths, I’d say.

@Toaster Retribution I want you to know that I just read that entire thing like a voiceover announcer for a bad teledrama, so, actually, thank you for that. lol

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

They are still of Odium's investiture.  T can still unmake them again if they want.  I personally think remaking them will be a big plot point either in the next book or the back five.

Can he? Just remake them? I mean, I assume in theory, yes, but given we don't know exactly how he unmade them to begin with, I'm just cautious on that? We saw that the power liked when Sja-Anat pushed back, while Rayse didn't. Whose to say what Todd will do?

3 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

What’s really interesting is that Todd wants to save everyone. So... in theory, couldn’t he just command everyone loyal to him to step down and make friends with the humans?

This is one reason I think that perhaps he's not the perfect vessel and the power will tear him apart. He was perfect in that moment that the power was coalescing, but if Rayse's scheming and strategizing pissed the power off, how will it react to someone smarter?? Navani's research uncovered that Odium's investiture is angry and chaotic,  but with an underlying logic. This doesn't seem to fit T well at all, imho. But perhaps I'm wrong on that. I wonder if we'll get another vessel change at the end of Book 5...