Bliev

I thought Defiant was a satisfying end to this series, and wrapped it up in a very YA/Sci-Fi way, which I personally really really enjoy. Spensa's hero journey ended where it should--her finding herself, then worrying about losing her sense of belonging, then finding comfort in others was exactly where her arc needed to go, and I really enjoying that Brandon gave us a little Cyto-Sanderlanche with multiple perspectives which isn't as common in YA as it is in his high fantasy novels. Much much appreciated, because boy did I enjoy those slivers of perspective! I really liked the Brade twist, and I LOVED the "little delvers" reaction, so so great. And I have to say that I have never found anything half as adorable as the concept of the slugs. (And I can't believe that Brandon has made me find the idea of slugs adorable. Who am I now?!?) 

Did I find much of Spensa and her friends' arc "predictable"? Yeah, but I think that's the type of series it is, and I knew that coming in. I actually find these books super enjoyable reads for that reason--Cytonic as a tone shift was interesting, and not my favorite, but I liked it way more on re-read with the rest of the companion novellas, and I thought this finale brought it home really nicely. 

Finally, loved the easter eggs for future work--more humans, Old Earth, slug power? YES! 9/10. Will definitely read again!!

On 1/24/2023 at 10:00 AM, StormingTexan said:

I am actually hoping we get to see Hoid starting to tell this story on FoS in the sequel as a fun tie back. 

Yeah, I hope that too! I wondered if the audience was dusk himself, as he embarks on his journey that he starts at the beginning of the sequel chapter. After all, the lesson fits--have to learn to ask for help if you want to be a hero, has to be a team--kind of the lesson Dusk always needs to learn because his culture (and personality) is so independent and solo-effort-focused. But that may be a stretch! 

44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Point of clairification, Odium's goal was always the Splintering of Honor and Cultivation, he came to the Rosharan system specifically for that purpose. More likely than not he was quite pleased with the human exodus, and he was the one who came to the souls that he would make the Fused.

Great point. I didn’t give it enough theory-level research/thought obviously b4 posting. :-) Thanks for this!

I am thinking about this timeline more--and I wonder if the migration was a long time coming. So for instance (totally made up times):

Year 0: Ashyn begins to fall bc of surgebinding/Odium. First refugees from the first fallen city flee to Roshar and are given Shinovar.

Year 50: More cities fall, more refugees to Shinovar. Now there start to be warring factions sharing the Shinovar space.

Year 75-100: Human refugees/explorers begin to leave Shinovar, mixing with the Singer population (which would become Herdazians, etc.)

Year 150: Final group of refugees make it out of Ashyn, with Jezrien (and the royal family in Ashyn) organizing the final pull out. (while the refugees who left earlier are beginning to skirmish with Singers and to leave Shinovar at greater rates).

Year 155: Odium, angry at the people who have left, finds out how to "unmake" the spren of the land and creates the unmade, who spur the growing war. 

Year 165: Angry cognitive shadows of dead Singers linger enough in Shadesmar and connect with Odium enough for him to offer them a gift--powers and eternal life (rebirth) in exchange for servitude (and, for Odium, a greater connection to Roshar, even though he is bound to Ashyn for some reason). FIRST DESOLATION

Year 167: Heralds approach Honor with the Oathpact.

Could explain the timeline. I have always through it strange that all the refugees from Ashyn--all of them--would travel together at the exact same time. Waves of refugees seem much more likely. As each city falls, more refugees leave. And of course, a wise king would be among the last to leave.

I love that Brandon tries such different genres and tones in his work. The jarring differences between Era 1 and Era 2 aren't everyone's cup of tea, but as someone who likes everything from Regency Romance to social satire to epic fantasy to murder mystery, I love that there's a Brandon book for all my ephemeral moods! lol

I will admit that coming into Alloy directly out of Era 1 was jarring. And it wasn't until I re-read Era 2 a couple years later, back to back, that I truly fell in love with it. Now I think the characters are some of my favorites and it's a much more light hearted, easier read for me, and sometimes that's exactly what I need.

12 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

By the time we saw him, Leras had held the shard for long enough to completely embody Preservation.  Vin was able to go on the offensive because she was fresh enough of a vessel to not have her intent and actions muddled by the shard she held - perhaps in some part due to her being such a good host.  As for Kel, not entirely sure - maybe he had trouble with things due to his forced connection?

I always felt that because Kel was so little connected to Preservation that he had difficulty controlling the power--not that he couldn't use it to destroy bc of its intent but he really couldn't control it at all. I think that Taravangian being a new host will help him to control the power better in these early stages, and my guess is that this is cultivation's aim--shake things up temporarily and give her plan a chance to develop and grow, knowing that the Odium power will take anyone over eventually, but by then, her plan will (hopefully?) be in motion?

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I don't think you are interpreting refugees correctly in this case. Those were war bands and leaders who escaped together with camp followers and their entourages. They were very much ready for war. War was their profession. The idea that the armed forces are to serve the general population is pretty modern.

Now, the big question, did Honor and Cultivation let them in while they still were loyal to Odium or did they have to renounce him?

They may well have renounced Odium, but honor and cultivation may not have realized that Odium could create the unmade, and then "poof" the Thrill. I wouldn't be surprised if the war was facilitated by the Thrill--which is why it happened so fast.

Because of the age of the actors, every year that goes by, we get new options as new teen actors emerge. By the time this happens, all of our options will be their Back Five ages lol.

BUT, I never let pragmatism get in the way of a good speculation hehe

I kept thinking of HoYeon Jung (from Squid Game) as Shallan, particularly this photo:

21 hours ago, Zoey said:

I do feel that it is probably not gonna be the happiest of endings.

  Reveal hidden contents

I mean, just look at how Mistborn ended, mass genocide of the majority of Scadrian inhabitants, and the death of a large portion of main characters

Mistborn spoilers, spoiled just in case.

ARGH. But I will say that Mistborn was *satisfying* and I hope this one will be too. That it won't be GRRM grim dark, but will end with a satisfying hopefulness, even if I'm racked with sobs throughout the entire denouement. 

37 minutes ago, Zoey said:

We now know the likely name

...

So it will start with Knights of and most likely be Knights of Woeful Truth as of now

 

Good find. I think many of us had thought "Killer of" or "Knights of" were likely "K" words, but it's good to see that Knights is settled on. I don't know how I feel about "woeful truth" but my guess is that it will fit the inworld book quite well, but boy it does NOT bode well for our heroes. "Woeful Truth" just...does not promise a very happy ending. lol

I am loving this thread. SO much to think about. I think Dalinar's power is going to end up being insanely powered up, and it will be limited only by his Intent and his ethics, which is the difference between him and Ishar. Ishar's powers are not "greater" than Dalinar's, they are just better known to him, and are magnified by how his insanity affects his Intent. There's going to be a "with great power, comes great responsibility" moment, which is what Honor's rules were meant to externally impose on the orders. What I want to know is how Cultivation feels about all of this. She played the long game with Taravangium and Szeth to get rid of Rayse. She set Dalinar up to be able to make the choice he made in Oathbringer. What is she after? I am certain she knows exactly what Dalinar will be able to do with his powers, and her future sight is likely pretty good. So where does she come into play? She's not an antagonist. But she's not a protagonist either. 

This timeline suggests that W&W is about 9 years after RoW/SA Book 5. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JJtJhHwpKdow01n2-bsT3scVvqJd6lZh4uvpNwcslv8/edit#gid=0

It's a fairly well-researched theorizing, although not canon. 

1 hour ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I can understand why, in this situation, you would see Jasnah's actions are justified.  I just think Jasnah's casual use of vigilante justice far more concerning than you do

I don’t think that walking down the street should count as provoking violence. And while she knew she could protect herself, the criminals do not. I don’t see how that matters. I think it’s okay to expect Jasnah to show them mercy. I also think it’s okay that she didn’t. This is not our society—where there is a criminal justice system of any sort. Or any sort of rule of law or accountability. In fact, that’s a key component of my reaction. It’s not even Batman-esque in that there is a whole Gotham police force that she could call in to do the job. This was not just a failure of these individuals, but a failure of the system to keep its people safe. So she did it. 
 

I think it’s fine that some people are really uncomfortable with this! It’s really a fascinating philosophical debate. But that’s why I shared my perspective. Which is odd because I’m a Shallan super fan, and a super-pacifist irl, so perhaps I’m an odd choice to completely understand (and kind of agree with) Jasnah’s actions here. 

It's interesting in this thread how quickly the victim blaming ensues. ;-) Jasnah foresees this, though, when she asks why can't a woman (rich or otherwise) walk around at night? Sure, it may not be "prudent" if the goal is to not be victimized, and we can want people to not do this, so they stay safe. But if I walked through a dark alley after a broadway show and got killed, and a bunch of people were like, "well, she should have known better," I'd argue that's a worse ethical argument than Jasnah's was. 

In this context, I don't really have much of a problem with Jasnah's actions. But I don't hate on people whose reaction is more like Shallan's. It is a brutal decision to take a life, and Shallan is much more sheltered than Jasnah, who has been mired in the world of assassination and espionage and war for her entire life. Those men thought they could hurt women with impunity. They were wrong and paid the price for it. She does not owe them mercy. Could she have granted it? Sure. But her decision to act in this way was a logical one that I understand. She has the ability to help make the city a bit safer. The government is doing nothing (and she had no control over that--it's not her city, and she has no power within it). But she does not feel justified doing so on suspicion. She waits for them to act. At any time they could have chosen otherwise, and then, so should she. But when they acted, she responded in a justifiable manner.

The part that does bother me is that she brought Shallan along without warning her or letting her choose. That, I feel, is not justified. Even if she is her teacher/mentor. Jasnah's lack of empathy or respect of Shallan bothers me more than her choice to defend herself in that moment. 

I think Cultivation keeps the Nightwatcher away in order to specifically prevent a bonding, seeing if granting her short interactions with humans can provide a similar growth process to the one usually provided during bonding. I always thought that seeing her daughter bond and then be thrown back into insensibility upon the death of her Radiant was too painful for her (the Goddess of growth watching such a regression of growth in her only daughter must have been awful for her to witness). Although I wanted Rlain to bond her, for this reason, I really don't expect anyone to. I like the idea of not having one bonded, and what I don't want is for there to need to be three bondsmiths to change the world like the power rangers or calling Captain Planet. ;-) 

With that SAID, if there was a third bondsmith, Rock seems like a good choice to me. 

I think the Child of Tanavast thing is important, but perhaps less literal than we've been making it. The WOB about Kaladin being almost "perfectly" aligned with the ideals of the windrunners/honor seems more important for me on this. As we learn more about the shards and heralds in the back 5, I imagine this will become more clear. I wonder if this is something that even helps Hold to connect with Kaladin earlier in the series--since he knew Tanavast as a person. But I also think it may be clear foreshadowing for Kaladin to take up the shard of Honor at the end, even though it seems Dalinar is being set up for reforming the power in text right now. So I thought it less "literal child" and more "whoa, dude, you're totally just like Tanavast was". 

11 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I guess my only thought is if this isn't meant to be some kind of romance, I don't see why Brandon would have put so much emphasis on the fact that they're having sex. Maybe I've just underestimated how common casual sex is in Alethi culture, but even still, it shows that Jasnah is willing to let herself not only let her guard down but be vulnerable with Wit, which she hasn't really done with many others.

I think it’s a romance/relationship of sorts. I just don’t think it’s “love” necessarily or even that commitment or the future is a thing they’re at all thinking about. I don’t think Jasnah cares a wit (hehe) about Alethi social norms and will do what she wants, and I’m guessing that her surprise at trusting someone outside of her family circle may be an impetus for her intrigue and care for Hoid. I suppose my quibble here is that we don’t fall into the trope of assuming any sexual relationship a woman in fantasy engages in is a sign of her undying affection or that it will lead to marriage or even that we should care that it does. Although I was in the “Jasnah is surely a Lesbian” camp until RoW, I didn’t feel that this chapter was otherwise out of character in that—she was still her intellectual, suspicious, cautious self—and Hoid was his mysterious, but forthright and respectful—self. To me, his respect for her came through as did her interest in him. But I didn’t see, say, Navani/Dalinar’s deep abiding loyalty and affection and attraction, or Shallan/Adolin’s growing true love, or even Kaladin’s attraction to Laral with hopes and dreams for their future. It read like a convenient companionship that fulfilled their needs—for now. But it could be as Ookla said above: poorly written love from someone who is ace. But I’m hopeful it’s not.

@Ookla the Well-Intentioned I certainly hope that I’m right and you’re wrong. ;-) I def agree that Brandon‘s romances can be clumsy, but I feel he’s improved on that score a lot. Then again, his unintentional queer-baiting can sometimes surprise me.  So…I’m going to keep reading it as I have: she’s intrigued and a bit excited but doesn’t fully trust or love him (yet?). But I’m a glass half full (of sparkles) kinda gal, so it’s what I do. Lol 

14 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I always felt Odium worked with Dominion to Kill Devotion, but then turned on Dominion, but I have no basis for this other than tropes of how those two shards might work. 

I originally felt the same but the OP’s wob makes me think otherwise…if dominion naturally would have sought to destroy devotion then why intervene at all (as the wob suggests re: ruin). We have a wob that odium specifically went after dominion and devotion—and saw ambition as his biggest threat. So I’m guessing he saw dominion as another rival (re: shardic intent).

@Kingsdaughter613 you captured it so very well. I couldn’t quite put my finger on what I enjoyed so much about this book until your post. It was—just fun. Even the existential stuff felt less existential when I was reading it, which surprised me.

overall, I think the emotion that best captured my reaction to this book was “satisfied”. I’m no Angelica Schuyler apparently. Haha

fav parts: making it clear that the delver Spensa changed was attacked and exiled and the terror wasn’t over. Doomslug (ofc). Chet—why did I love him so so much? That I found myself acting as suspicious as Spensa waiting to be betrayed and realizing that BS took me on the same journey he took her and thinking…you sly dog you.

least fav: taking back the mining base was a bit anticlimactic. Could have made that a bit more dramatic. (But then would it have not been as satisfying per the above?? Lol) 

I think we all jump to conclusions a bit much. Jasnah isn’t in love with Hoid. She’s fond of him and intrigued by him but doesn’t fully trust him. Hoid is attracted to her and impressed by her but nothing in chapter 99 reads as love. They are practical people attracted to one another in some way or another. Not every “romance” need lead to marriage or be based in true love. She trusts him enough to let her guard down some. He respects her enough to tell her some of his truth. They have bonded in the middle of a war and apocalypse. I mean…I’m kind of relieved brandon didn’t frame this as “Jasnah lost her heart to a trickster god” bc that would have been out of character for both—but I don’t mind the “people connect with each other in unexpected ways” frame.

i think the relationship will end, but perhaps they’ll connect off and on for her lifetime. Or maybe she’ll be immortal at some point too. But love? Too distracting for both of them.

1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

I have a whole rant I may post later on, but my short answer is no, Odium's not corrupted, if anything, Odium is now less corrupted than ever, because Mr. T's entire philosophy, thought process, and being aligns almost perfectly with Odium's intent.

To probe this a bit, I have two thoughts. (1) I see T as a terrifying wielder of Odium because of his intelligence and knowledge of politics, and the fact that his new ascendance means he has retained more of his personality than Rayse had after thousands of years, but not because his personality is more aligned with Odium's intent, at least not more so than Rayse. In fact, I wonder if T will run into the same issue that Rayse had in trying to control the power--he wanted to be strategic, the power wanted to be unleashed. Every time he tried to be cold and calculating, the power surged. If T is indeed a "perfect" vessel, then is it because his emotional range is artificially augmented by Cultivation's "boon/curse"? If so, does that mean his spirit web has been inculcated with Cultivation's power that could in some way alter the power he now holds. (2) Corrupted investiture is seen as red, which could mean that (Mistborn era 2 spoilers):

I don't know how corruption works with ascendance; we haven't seen that yet. So you may well be correct that it's not corrupted at all. But I do push back bit on the idea that T is a 'more purely aligned' Odium compared to Rayse. I don't see evidence of that yet. 

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

I agree completely! 'Honor', in general, is not a good thing to rely on. It's not the equivalent of 'good'. Look at any number of 'honor systems' in the world that come with the unfortunate side-effects of endless blood feuds. 

In general, this is more just a weakness of Sanderson's writing. His characters don't tend to act like people would, and there is largely not a lot of contemplation of factors the actual people dealing with these issues would consider, but rather a focus on... 'the greater evil', more cosmic evils, 'true evil' as that Kaladin quote reads. Of course, all evil is true evil, whether it is a 'small-time' abuser destroying peoples' lives or a mass murderer like Dalinar (and yet these so-called small-time abusers and small-time evils are mostly what all of us encounter in our lives)

Very little of it makes sense to me, but at the time of reading I just sort of swept it under the rug and didn't pay much attention to it save a fleeting annoyance.

I think I would disagree with this a bit. I actually, in a way, agree with the OP in that Kaladin is my least fav of the protagonists, but I don't think that's because he's poorly written or written unrealistically, rather, it's just my personal feelings toward his character (I find Shallan and Dalinar and Adolin and Jasnah and yes, Syl, etc. to be more interesting). But I think Sanderson actually does a great job of getting "in Kal's head". When you say "his characters don't tend to act like people would", I don't see it that way. In fact, I think one reason so many people were taken aback by Kal's dad in ROW was precisely this reason. He is *not* focused on the "greater evils" but on the day-to-day decisions that have to be made. He's not making cosmic choices, he's surviving. And that caused a clash (and I was one of the few who actually felt Kal's dad was acting sensibly, even if unkindly, given his situation). But Kal is *not* a regular guy. He's magical and he's cavorting around with other magical people who are bonded to splinters of gods. He is a part of the cosmic fight and can't afford to get dragged down into the minutia. I think this actually makes a lot of sense. 

Why does he avoid what might be seen as a "just" outcome for Roshone? Because it's quite literally unimportant to the broader issues that plague him. He doesn't like this! He wants to be just a regular guy worried about regular things--but big picture, strategic thinking just suits him. And he's the leader of his army whether he likes it or not, and he knows the weight of that responsibility. It's Laral that snaps him out of his pettiness, strangely enough (which is hilarious because she ALWAYS did the realistic thing that a girl/woman in her position would do). He transfers his irritation toward her, he still feels hatred and anger, but he recognizes the futility of it in the bigger scheme of things. He quite literally picks his battles. And I don't think that's unrealistic at all. 

In a war zone, people make a lot of tradeoffs for survival. Memories are short--even the Mink agrees to help Dalinar, after Dalinar's actions result in the death of his whole family. I don't think that's unrealistic at all. 

T-odium, in reviewing the contract, notes that it's written as such that Odium can't possibly be freed, which is a problem since that's what he wants more than anything. T-odium says: 

Quote

Dalinar has set himself up...to fail. I CAN beat him.

And notes a subtle possibility that could still work in his favor. I think the contract being a contest to the death makes the OP's theory a bit less plausible, but I think it's more plausible that he gets Dalinar to break his oath. To not show up, say, or to refuse the battle at all. This could make the contract null and void?

Earlier, Odium (Rayse) says:

Quote

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

But this was for the contract they did *not* agree to. But I assume the consequences of oathbreaking are the same, regardless of the oath? So if Dalinar doesn't show up at the appointed time in the appointed place? If he is killed before hand? If he is delayed or imprisoned? Broken oath, right?

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

"God's divine wrath separate everything that would give it context" although I can't find the exact quote. I find that even more fearsome. Morality is fickle and mutable. Even Devotion could be a deadly shard without a backing morality. Besides, morality is provided to a Shard by the Vessel. The terrifying thing about Odium is that it is an emotion that shouldn't exist without the tempering of the entire spectrum of emotions. This is why the followers of Odium are called Voidbringers. There's nothing left when you've successfully followed Odium's Intent. At least Ruin has an end game in mind. Hate without context leads to complete emptiness.

Definitely terrifying. 
i was quoting recent wob on shardcast the other day:

Quote

It is constrained by Taravangian and directed by Taravangian, but it's the rage of a deity separated from its morals should be a scary thing.

But yes, we could def go down a morality rabbit hole that probably isn’t useful. :-)