Unlicensed Hemalurgist

Well what has Cultivation actually done lately? For someone the text says is allegedly engaged in a life-or-death struggle, she doesn't seem to be actually doing anything. Sending a tiny fraction of her power to another planet is far more involved than anything we've actually seen her do in-text. Perhaps Scadrial's actually where the bulk of her attention (not power, but attention) is right now. And if the manifestation of a brand new godmetal isn't an attempt to move in on Harmony's metal-themed turf I don't know what else would qualify.

Maybe I should clarify: I'm not saying Cultivation is actively fleeing to Scadrial yet. I'm saying she might be preparing to do so, depending on how her other plans (Diagram, etc.) turn out. Sending some of her influence there as trellium before deciding to commit one way or the other (if such a thing can even be done).

Wait, I thought spren were how her investiture expressed itself once she settled on Roshar. How could she be invested on a planet before getting there? That's like moving into your house before it's built. Maybe Hoid was making a caustic remark about her drinking habits as a mortal?

You mean you can't think of a good motivation to flee a solar system hosting a god-powered serial killer who has repeatedly, explicitly said he wants to kill you?

You're right of course, and this really wants me to expand on my Hemalurgy theory about godmetals, especially Brandon's "lerasium spike = nuclear bomb as a paperweight" comment. Hmmm, so much to do.

Ladies and gentlemen, we seem to have reached ninja-ception. To the point: technically, Brandon just said that Hemalurgy can work on animals. Without more specifics, there's no way of telling what that means. He could be saying that all the metals work normally on animals (iron steals animal strength etc.), or that some metals work on animals or others don't. So my trellium theory is still technically supported by this WoB, pending future clarification.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Is there a WoB or something that says hemalurgy also works on animals? I was under the impression that people were being literal when they talked about certain Hemalurgic metals stealing human qualities; as in, most Hemalurgy only worked human-to-human. Even the Blessings would fall under that category, actually, when you remember that the mistwraiths were originally Terris.

DISCLAIMER: While I don't think this argument is definitive by any means, I do think the case for "Trell-as-Cultivation" is just as strong as "Trell-as-Autonomy," perhaps stronger. It sounds nutty, but honestly I think that's because people here are assuming we know a lot more about Autonomy than we actually do. I'll explain: I'm going to start with what I think is the strongest point in favor of Trell being Cultivation: the weird Hemalurgic properties of the godmetal trellium. This may seem like digression, but I promise you this is going somewhere. Trellium acts like no metal we've ever seen. From the Coppermind: That's pretty strange, isn't it? Trellium is the only metal we know of that affects kandra like that. I know there are technically the human quality-stealing metals that grant the Blessings, but this is clearly a blessing of a totally different variety. Trellium seems to work a lot like atium, in that it can steal any Allomantic/Feruchemical ability, but it only seems to do that with kandra. But what about the chimeras from Shadows of Self? Again, from the Coppermind: Another trellium anomaly! Again, we see this godmetal acting weird. What other Hemalurgic construct even approaches this level of sheer inhumanity? All the other constructs we know of are warped from the human baseline, yes, but they remain human or humanoid in some way. Steel Inquisitors are basically artificial Mistborn. Koloss are extremely buff, extremely dumb humans with a skin condition. The kandra aren't human, but Hemalurgy turns them from mindless blobs of mush into sentient beings, so you could argue that the Blessings increase their "human-ness." But with chimeras, one trellium spike gives them some unknown quality, while warping their bodies and minds into something animalistic. Almost like koloss. Only instead of being given a human quality like strength, they were given an animal quality that twisted them into wild beasts. But how to we square this with the other Hemalurgic property of trellium, giving Metallic Arts abilities to kandra? Simple: THEORY: Hemalurgic trellium is a "universal spike" like atium, but with restrictions. It can transfer any strait or ability, but only between humans and non-humans. Meaning that a trellium spike only transfers qualities if either the spike's victim or recipient is not human. They work human-to-nonhuman, or nonhuman-to-human. This is the only way I can think of to square the two abilities of trellium that we know of. (As an aside, it also ties into a theory I'm working on about Hemalurgic godmetals, but I don't even know if I still take my own side on that one yet.) Now, if we assume that my theory on trellium is correct, we have an interesting corollary on this godmetal: its powers within the Metallic Arts, from what we've seen, appear to be deeply tied to interactions between humans, the natural world, and the interplay between them. The connection between trellium's properties and the Intent of Cultivation seems pretty clear to me. We also know from the text that Trell's agents appear to be deeply concerned with order, micromanaging affairs, and long-term planning. All of this fits very well with Cultivation's Intent. Given that we also know that a Shard's Intent affects how well they can predict the future, and that Cultivation is reportedly very, very good at predicting the future, we have a Shard interfering on Scadrial who shares a suspiciously similar MO with Cultivation. MY THEORY: Cultivation is attempting to partially invest herself on Scadrial as a backup plan in case greater Roshar falls to Odium. It's probably safe to assume at this point that Odium's hatred of Cultivation has gotten personal, and Cultivation knows that if things go wrong, she's going to be the next Shard he comes after. So she's investing herself on Scadrial, using it as a "Shardic lifeboat" of sorts to ensure that she can't be trapped on Roshar/Ashyn and Splintered like Tanavast. This growing influence manifests itself as the new godmetal "trellium," whose known Hemalurgic properties seem to fit thematically with her Intent. The only real counter-argument I can think of is that Cultivation seems pretty pre-occupied on Roshar, what with the Last Desolation and all. But is that really an argument, or is it just an assumption based on what little we've seen so far? Odium is trapped by the Oathpact, not Cultivation. She may be heavily invested, but as Autonomy shows being invested on a world is no barrier to sowing Investiture other places like a Shardic Johnny Appleseed. Is this a stretch? Maybe. Am I missing something? Quite possibly, yes. But I still think this Trell-as-Cultivation theory is worth considering, if for no other reason than that it helps us look at the question with new eyes.

If the Final Empire ever gets made into a movie, they need to use this remix for the trailer. It's even called Survivor, it's perfect!

I imagine it would be like bringing the Sun to earth, or a never-ending highstorm made of plasma, whatever metaphor is more horrifying.

I meant that classes with different Vibrances can cancel their vibrances out, while those of the same Vibrance can find their vibrances amplified. As to your questions: No, Kinbinding potential and other subspecies traits only breed true through one generation of interbreeding. Any less than 50% Kinbinder heritage and the person won't be able to learn. Kinbinding has a lot of real-life uses. Because it puppeteers the target by swishing their blood around rather than activating their muscle fibers, a target and Kinbinder working in unison can use the Bind to provide an additive boost to the target's physical strength. Sort of like using the target's blood as hydraulic power armor. A Quarter-Bind can also be very useful in medicine, to hold back the blood from a wound and keep someone from bleeding out. Also, there may or may not be an all-Kinbinder dance troupe who have become famous for their perfect choreography. And this is all before even getting into the usefulness of the adjuvant powers. They did, emphasis on "did." Modern Kinbinders are mostly focused on influencing events from behind the scenes. A Kinbinder only feels pain if they're controlling someone with a Full-Bind, when they and their target are essentially one nervous system.

Well, that's a complicated question. There used to be a lot of them. It took a pair of gods/big magical birds flooding the entire world Noah-style to take down the aforementioned Kinbinder empire, but a third one intervened to save them from extinction. In modern times, the Kinbinding subspecies mostly lives scattered in small, secretive groups in other societies. Most of them have some minor ability at Kinbinding-- usually nothing more than being able to stop a small wound from bleeding-- but the blowback from the collapse of their empire has left modern Kinbinders very secretive. None of their teachings or discoveries are written down, caches of rare adjuvant needles are protected like precious jewels, and Kinbinding itself is rarely used other than in the most subtle ways. They only take one student at a time, and some Kinbinding masters encourage their wards to kill them in a duel to prove their mastery, otherwise the rest of the world might notice an increase in their numbers and blow their cover. During the time the story takes place, there are less than three hundred master Kinbinders worldwide. In most cultures, information on the art is so muddled by superstition and intentional misinformation planted by the Kinbinders themselves that most people think Kinbinding doesn't even exist, and the genocidal empire of ancient times was just a regular old genocidal empire, and all that stuff about them being evil blood mages were just myth-making.

@Sunbird glad you liked it!

PROOF: This theory makes me irrationally angry, meaning I'm probably being Rioted right now. THEORY: Tonk Fah was a worldhopping Hemalurgist.

On a (slightly) more serious note: Cap: Kaladin Iron Man: Kelsier Thor: Either Hrathen ("odd mannerisms" being his Derethi faith) or Vin ("odd mannerisms" being her street urchin habits) Hulk: Either Clod or Human Hawkeye: Spook Black Widow: Shuden (lol) Bucky: Marsh Dr. Strange: Shai

Hoid, of course, will be making the contractually-required Stan Lee cameos throughout.

Neat ideas, everyone! This is honestly the kind of topic this forum was made for. As for counteracting Vibrance effects, perhaps to continue the vibration analogy, another Vibrance user could block their powers with his/her own, with the two canceling each other out via destructive interference? I had a similar thread up a year ago where I was asking for advice on my own magic system for my novel, but since the idea has changed a lot in the last year, I thought it might be helpful to post the revised version here. The whole thing works sort of like a cross between Hemalurgy, bloodbending in Avatar, and mantling in the Elder Scrolls meta-lore: --- The magic system is called Kinbinding, and its chief ability is to allow the user to control others' bodies. The ability to use this power is a hereditary gift passed down among a particular subspecies of human. All members of that subspecies (and those with one parent from that subspecies) have the ability to learn Kinbinding, but it still requires training to learn how to use, just like how you can have plenty of fast-twitch muscle fibers via heredity but you still need to practice to be a good sprinter. Kinbinding requires very small and thin bone needles carved from the bones of another human being as a focus. The needles are inserted into 22 specific acupuncture-esque loci on the Kinbinder’s forearms, wrists, and fingers, creating an artificial “kin-bond” with those nearby, based on the specific ethnicity of the human whose bones make up the needles. The "technical" explanation is that the needles, empowered by the Kinbinding subspecies' unique biology, over-writes the Kinbinder's identity in the metaphysical realm and tricks the Universe into thinking the Kinbinder is of the same ethnicity as the needles and the target. For example, a Kinbinder inserts a bunch of needles from some poor schlub from Race A, which tricks the universe into thinking they are "kin" of Race A. This would allow the Kinbinder to induce intense pseudo-tidal effects on the blood and other bodily fluids of a person of Race A at will, allowing them to puppeteer the target’s body with precise movements of their arms and hands. However, because a Bind manipulates the target through exerting force on the blood rather than inducing muscle contractions, physically powerful or coordinated targets can occasionally summon the raw muscular power to resist a weak Bind. There are three different Binds, or levels of control, a Kinbinder can exert. Quarter-Bind: This one is the easiest to maintain, requiring only a quarter of the 22 needles to share the target's ethnic admixture. It allows the Kinbinder to control one or two limbs of the target at most. Half-Bind: This is more challenging, and requires at least half of the 22 needles share the target’s admixture, but allows the Kinbinder to puppeteer all four limbs. Full-Bind: This is very rare, because it requires the Kinbinder to use a needle carved from a sliver of the target’s very own bone. A Full-Bind allows Kinbinder to manipulate the mind and perceptions of the target, through influencing their emotions and inserting "thoughts" into their internal monologue. There's also an element of mental effort involved-- the amount of concentration needed to sustain a Bind is reduced if the Kinbinder on some level self-identifies as one of the targets. For example, if a Kinbinder has one parent from the Kinbinder subspecies and one from Race A, he will find it easier to achieve Half-Binds on people of Race A to the degree that he himself considers himself to be Race A as well, because the added self-belief makes it easier for the needles to project "Race A-ness" to the Universe. Additionally, there is one bind point (left wrist, between the ends of the radius and ulna) that grants the Kinbinder one additional power or effect through their Binds, depending on the admixture of the needle inserted there. For example, a needle from Race A might allow the Kinbinder to conceal themselves from any nearby person they could exert a Bind on, a needle from Race B might allow them to accelerate a target's healing through a Half-Bind, etc. These ancillary effects are called adjuvants. These aspects of the magic system have a direct influence on the In the setting's past, a genocidal empire of Kinbinders used to declare race wars on subject peoples whose bones provided particularly useful adjuvants and hunt them down, like a combination of ivory-poaching and the Aztec Flower Wars. Over the centuries, they hunted a lot of the other peoples to near-extinction, making their powers extremely rare and needles carved from their bones almost priceless. The lingering animosity from this empire's fall has meant that there's a strong incentive for many full-blooded people to remain hidden, for fear of being murdered and turned into a set of needles. Trained Kinbinders in the period the story takes place are also extremely secretive, in order to avoid the stigma of being associated with a race of genocidal blood mages. Luckily for them, Kinbinding can be used in extremely subtle ways, if you know what you're doing.

This sounds really cool and mystical/neo-gnostic, like something Michael Kirkbride would come up with for the deep Elder Scrolls meta-lore. Unfortunately, also like Kirkbride, I have no idea what you're trying to say, and have a sinking feeling that I'd need to take some physics and/or comparative religion courses to figure it out. 10/10 for creativity, though-- reminds me of the time I spent a summer trying to create a magic system based on Ancient Greek numerology and the Golden Mean.

And now, a shameless attempt to recapture the success of my earlier song: "The End," to the tune of "The Plagues" from Prince of Egypt:

Granted, but the fantasy series is a borderline-unreadable, derivative, contrived, Mary Sue-riddled mess. The only 5-star reviews for it on Amazon are written by sarcastic Internet racists and your mum. Your story lies mouldering on the shelves of failing second-hand bookstores, forever. I wish for a better work ethic.

I really hope Brandon uses Moash's character arc to either show us some Voidbinding or either go all the way to making him a villainous Badass Normal-- sort of an anti-Adolin. I already hate Moash, but make me love hating him!

I've taken it twice now and got Elsecaller both times, which makes me think it's probably a good fit. Unexpected.

Which brings up an interesting (if disturbing) hypothetical: if a Dakhor monk stored his Connection to Fjordell [sic?] in a duraluminmind, would his bones stay twisted? Or would they go back to normal, only to twist painfully back into shape all at once when the duraluminmind was tapped?

I agree. There's also the fact that "bringing people together" a la the Bondsmith Ideals doesn't really jive well with Odium's Intent of sowing hatred and misery. There do seem to be ten glyphs on the voidbinding chart, which makes me think that there is probably some tenth level/type of Voidbinding we just don't understand yet. I seriously doubt it would be comparable to the Bondsmiths, though.

Hrathen, I think, would either become the best or the worst Skybreaker imaginable.