NotBurtReynolds

Thank you for the heads up..Thats a really good read.

Thank you for taking the time to write it all back out because it's really good stuff. What a pain Yea, I think you're right. Trying to transfer how a Shard is guided by their Vessel directly to how a hypothetical Vessel would be guided by Adonalsium, is kind of a stretch. I definitely agree that all Shard's Intents will end up as awful when taken to their extreme. My idea for always having Odium was more about wanting a constant in my system with the idea being that you cannot separate the hate of god because it, while vile and seemingly always a negative quality, is a necessary component of divinity which necessarily must be overcome in every cycle. A philosophical underpinning I guess, that claims a circle where a perfect god must have hate, but hate must be overcome to achieve a perfect god. But, I suppose that we could swap out Odium for any Intent with the goal of each cycle/Shattering was for the other Intents to overcome the 1 which has run amok(Endowment in your example). That would still work I think because the other Intents would be "sharpened"/"made purer"/etc no matter which Intent they were up against, whether it be Odium, Ambition, or even Devotion. Yes. These words are accepted/appreciated. Like I said before, I'm no WoT scholar but I thought it was pretty simplistic to write this off as a rip-off, considering that it had about a dozen different branch-offs into areas where discussing WoT parallels would have no place. Just saying something is in a never-ending cosmic cycle doesn't make it a WoT copy, because I don't think Jordan can get a copyright considering all the religious ideas that trade off of similar concepts. It's not the fact that there is a cycle which interests me, its why there is a cycle in the first place and how that cycle continues and for what purpose. And I don't believe the 'whys' and 'hows' I was putting forth have much to do with Lews Therin and the Dark One and their cycle. But I'm certainly not here to argue WoT I would like to add, as an aside, one of my favorite things about these forums...That I get to talk to people who obviously know more than me about some of my favorite subjects..ie..philosophy and just writing, in general. I love philosophy. I love writing. I'm trained in neither, rank amateur So it's nice to interact with people who seem to have more formalized knowledge in these areas, because I like to learn. Now, I think I'm probably more well-versed in philosophical concepts than the general populace, but there is a big difference between those who dabble out of intellectual curiosity and those who have obviously done more formal study. I may have listened to(and understood most!;) all of the Philosophize This! podcasts, but that doesn't mean I'm going to come up with something like this off the top of my head: From @hoiditthroughthegrapevine Running through these forums, I'm always finding examples like this...People who help expand my non-Cosmere knowledge and thought processes through Cosmeric concepts. So thanks, smart folks! Keep it up.

Man, I've been away for a while . As far as any defense of my theory goes...I don't have much ..Probably because I guess I don't look at these things as theories, in so much as they're ideas I think could be possible given the information we have about the system we're dealing with. Mostly because I am of the strong opinion that I won't ever be able to figure out the actual mechanics of how the Cosmere mysteries are going to shake out .Not because readers aren't smart and can't figure out the breadcrumbs Sanderson leaves, but because I don't think he's ever going to give us enough information to figure out many of the largest mysteries. I knew after reading HoA that this was an author whom I was not going to be able to out-guess his endings, and as the stories have continued I see the same theme continue...Some things are un-figure-out-able and can only be figured out with new information, not just by sleuthing and obsessive reading. Case in point: I haven't been on the 17th Shard long, so I'm not going to make a blanket statement that no one nailed the circumstances of Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher, what his boon/curse was, and how it related to the visions...because then I'm sure I'll get a link to some forum post from 3 years ago where someone nailed it all. But, I think its safe to say that the general populace of readers was way off as it regarded to those mysteries. I feel like a lot of people(including myself) felt with strong confidence that Dalinar's memory loss and his visions were results of his interaction with the Nightwatcher. May not know which was which, as far as boon/curse goes, but those feelings were most of the discussions I saw...Which makes total sense, given the information we had thus far. But we(I, at least;) were wrong. Visions were granted by the Stormfather and had zero to do with the Nightwatcher and Dalinar was 'pruned' by Cultivation. I don't think those things could've been sussed out with deductive reasoning. And even though I guess smarter people than I could get there with inductive reasoning, I still say it'd be more of a lucky guess to get that the source of the visions is the Stormfather and that Cultivation did a number on Dalinar's brain as part of a long term plan to give him the chance to become the man that would be able to resist Odium. And that's what I love about these books. I don't see reveals like that as "twists", but rather things that only appear to readers as twists because we never had the pertinent information needed in order to make a reasonable guess...we only thought we did. And while I don't think I'm going to outguess Sanderson(particularly in regards to the ultimate ending of his entire Cosmere;), I do enjoy thinking about ideas and guesses that could fit into the story, given the cosmere construct that's been revealed to us thus far. Which this theory does, I believe, regardless of 'that's just WoT' out-of-hand dismissals. I looked at the Cosmere "system" and ran out the possibilities you could have if you started from a place where the only way to make a greater god was by destroying the old one, in order to sharpen the pieces and reform as something greater. Which, regardless of my OP, I think also works as a concept if you remove the "infinite Adonalsiums" portion and only make it a 1-time Shattering. I don't know how we're going to get there, I just think that the Shattering will ultimately result in something greater than the Shattering. From @hoiditthroughthegrapevine Now, I'm not claiming this as some sort of 'gospel' reveal, but the "right track" comment is what makes me think that the story of the Shattering cannot just be about the beings who Shattered and their motivations for doing so. If Adonalsium was independent of the Shattering(besides being the thing which was Shattered), then I just think it relegates god to a bit player...The Supreme McGuffin, existing only to be goal of our protagonists caper. This thought experiment began for me because I wanted to think about a god needing to be destroyed in order to be a better god, a concept that dovetailed nicely with real-world cosmology concepts that have always piqued my interest. Not to mention paralleling real world religious concepts of a self-sacrificing god.

On a long enough time-line would all Shards be driven insane by their Intent, or is the warping that the Intent brings different than what we would consider insanity? Why was Honor losing his mind but Cultivation did not? Was it because he was the only Shard actually giving up something of himself as he weaved whatever trap he was laying for Odium? Did I wrongly think that Cultivation was involved in this Odium plan as well? Or was she involved, but not in the way Honor was, so her mind was unaffected? IMO, no Shards can ever really be trusted...But with that being said, haven't all the Vessels held their Shards long enough that they should be close to completely warped by the force and therefore should never be trusted because all of their actions will ultimately be only in regards to their Intent? I ask because of Ruin. Fair to say that Ati was world-class warped by Ruin. Cultivation has had her Shard for even longer yet seems much more in control. Was Ati's warping sped up by his imprisonment? Is Cultivation playing opossum with her mental stability? Should I just keep typing inane questions?

Just to be clear, this is thought with no evidence or much thought, for that manner ...It was just something I said at work that made me laugh.. Small preamble: Not that anyone cares, its just pertinent to the story, but I work at a fine-dining Italian place. Its a high-volume, high-stress place that has 30 years of politics running through it. Lot's of politics and lots of back-stabbing, because where you're put in the restaurant can easily swing what you make in a night by 200-300$. A lot of alpha personalities who run over whoever they can. I tend to be the force of opposition. Nick Quixote and his ever sharp tongue to the rescue whenever someone decides they can treat their co-workers like they are less than. Even the co-workers I don't care for. Because being meek doesn't make you deserved of being run over. Preamble over. So recently one of my co-workers treated another very poorly. Made a point of embarrassing him in front of everyone for a very minor misstep. I pulled him aside later and quietly unleashed a string of biting(and true) insults about his personality and work habits, that I believe made his knees go jelly ; )...Then I told him if he ever treated someone like that again, then we would have a repeat of this conversation in front of the whole staff. He took my point. Another co-worker later asked me why I would pick a fight with a known revenge-minded, diabolical dirt-bag, on someone else's behalf? So in my most dramatic voice I said: "I will always speak for those not heard. I'll be a voice for those with none, because I just can't help myself." (Surely I'm not the only fantasy reader who sometimes speaks in overly dramatic terms?..Everyone's mostly used to me by now ) I then started cackling manically and exclaimed, "I sound like a stormin' Edgedancer! Everyone knows I'm a Lightweaver!" The person I was talking too does not read Stormlight so they just looked at me like a crazy person as I walked away laughing to myself. So that's my vote for the 4th Ideal, something around, "I will speak for those for those who have not been heard."

I used to be on that train too but now I'm thinking that's its going to be something more tragic for poor ol' Kal...I'm thinking something along the lines of not giving help to those who do not want it, even if they need it...And I think it might come about in a situation where his father orders Kaladin to abandon him to an almost certain death, in the name of doing a greater good. Poor Lirin, I just don't have high hopes for him.

Maybe I don't understand WoT enough. Just because my theory posits a cyclical nature of god and their universe I don't think that necessarily makes it too similar. And for arguments sake, lets say I'm right and that Brandon came up with the basic framework of how Adonalsium and the Cosmere works prior to finishing WoT. Does he then scrap it for being too similar? And while I was partial to one version of my theory, I laid out numerous branching paths. Are they all too similar to WoT to even be considered? I think there can still be a Beginning, Middle, and End to the story of the Shattering under what I proposed. I'm just saying the story we're getting is not the only one.

Well, this should cheer you up A definite integral walks into a bar and orders five pints of Guinness. The bartender pours them, and the definite integral finishes them one after the other. “Can I have five more?” he asks. The bartender says, “Don’t you think you’ve had enough?” “Don’t worry about me,” says the integral. “I know my limits.”

Gotcha, my bad..I try to tread lightly around here because I generally feel that my tone always comes across poorly...And I don't want to insult people who know so much more than me about a subject I love so much.

I wasn't trying to be. Was only making fun of myself.

I made a lot of assumptions..That's one of them. Me neither.

So this theory is the result of thoughts that coalesced while brainstorming in an excellent post started by @Firerust, and expanded on by @1stBondsmith and @hoiditthroughthegrapevine , about whether Adonalsium may have had a mandate of Unity. Some smart thoughts over there and definitely worth a look. * "The Integral of Perfection through Unity Theory" where Adonalsium's current state is the sum of all states approaching infinity, used with permission from creator of smarter words, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine So the quickie summary of this theory, which will likely be the perfect combination of way too long and ultimately wrong, goes like this: This Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of Vessels of Adonalsium, mirroring real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in an endless(and possibly beginning-less) cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That the Vessel of Adonalsium uses their time holding the power to shape and guide the Cosmere, in pursuit of becoming the perfect form of whatever it is that god would consider perfect. Eventually the Vessel reaches a plateau, wherein the only way to evolve to a more perfect Adonalsium is by allowing it's power to be Shattered into the different Intents of god. Intents which change with every cycle, according to what is needed to Advance in godhood this time, but one that is always the Hate of god. Or Odium. Or whatever synonym you want. But not the passion of god, regardless of what Rayse thinks. The part of god that may be necessary, but without the context of the other aspects, is the ultimate destructive force. The Odium that must be defeated by the rest, so Adonalsium can be ultimately be reformed into a more perfect version of itself which has had those aspects honed to to even finer point of perfection, allowing all of the aspects of god to further balance each other that much more perfectly. Another infinitesimal step down the path of godly evolution, stretching back indefinitely but only looking forward as far as the next cycle and the next contest. Because each cycle is a contest where the outcome is not guaranteed. Either the other Intents of god overcome the hate and Adonalsium reforms that much more perfect and continues the cycle of evolving until a another plateau is reached and another Shattering must occur...Or Odium prevails. Which becomes a more likely outcome every time that the cycle repeats, for as Adonalsium reforms every time as a more perfect version, so must his Odium be whenever he is Shattered. In order to advance to a more perfect Adonalsium, a more perfect Odium must be defeated. So now that we're through the 'short' summary, let's get to the why. But it's a how that has always stuck in my brain...How did Adonalsium not see it coming? Odium, Cultivation, Honor, Preservation, Ruin...We've seen these Shards show us taking "be prepared" to another level. While not omniscient, they have been shown to have the knowledge and foresight to carry out plans that stretch millennia while seeing the endless moves that could possibly oppose them. The ultimate chess masters... But it the Shards and their plans are the ultimate chess masters, then what would that make Adonalsium? About 16x's more ultimate, I have to imagine Probably more so if you subscribe to the belief that the Whole of god would likely be more than the sum of their parts. And if that's the case, I have to repeat my earlier question: How could 16 beings, no matter how crafty, trick and kill god without god knowing or at least knowing that it necessarily has to happen even if god couldn't know exactly when or how ? But we do know that Shattered, Adonalsium was. Was he totally surprised? Saw it coming but couldn't do anything to stop it? Saw it coming but didn't want to stop it? There's lots of possibilities, some more likely than others. So I guess the question you have to start with is, Did Adonalsium want to be Shattered? I'll start with the possibilities under the general assumption most of us make and that which we've gotten no evidence to the contrary: Adonalsium Did Not Want To Be Shattered If Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered, then either: 1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and couldn't stop it. Or, 2. Adonalsium saw it coming, but couldn't stop it. Now I think one of these 2 scenarios is what most of us think we are going to get whenever we get Dragonsteel(or whatever it called by then). The story of god not wanting to be killed but ultimately losing to our scrappy group of Shatterers, the Yolen16. Now I find scenario #1 more unlikely, given my previously stated disbelief in anyone or any group being able to sneak up on/trick god. And seriously, what kind of god would Adonalsium be if he just let someone sneak up and murder him? So if Adonalsium didn't want to be Shattered, I think it’s likely scenario #2...He saw it coming to some extent but the Yolen 16 were able to kill him anyway. Which is totally plausible. I think when we finally see Yolen in the days of the Shattering, we are going to see a planet further along in the fusion of magic and technology then we've seen thus far in the Cosmere. Seriously, Yolen's going to be nuts, right? And given that likely high level of magical advancement, along with the involvement of one Master Hoid, I'll definitely buy the Yolen16 being able to come up with an intricate plan to trap and murder god, even if he sees them coming. Perhaps they will be able to find and exploit some blind spot in Adonalsium’s knowledge, much like we are assuming Odium's blind spot in regards to Renarin will be exploited. Maybe it’s just that Hoid and Rayse are better at coming up with and executing plans than the combined strength of a dozen Kelsier's plus Hannibal from the A-Team, and we’ll see their master stroke that will put Adonalsium in a corner from which he cannot escape Shattering. To be clear, I’d be fine with any and all of that So those are the general scenarios if we assume that Adonalsium did not want to be Shattered. But what if he did? Adonalsium Wanted to Be Shattered 1. Adonalsium didn't see it coming and didn't try to stop it 2. Adonalsium saw it coming, knew it needed to happen , went along with it. 3. Adonalsium wanted it to happen and manipulated the Yolen16 to do so. 4. Adonalsium wanted it to happen but would still fight his demise as hard as possible until champions are able to rise up and best him.(The Talladega Nights Corollary) So in this theory the "why" of Adonalsium wanting to Shattered, is answered...To evolve to something better, even if it is infinitesimally small improvement. I do think it’s important to understand that the amount of improvement doesn't really matter in this system because I find it unlikely that this is a 'finish line' situation in which there is one perfect form of god and that once it is attained, the cycle will stop. I believe it to be a matter of continually striving towards a goal which is unreachable. A finish line you can forever move ever closer to but can never actually cross, just as you can never actually achieve perfection, but you can strive for it. The value lies in the struggle for, not the achievement of. But back to the why...Why would Shattering the power of god, make god better? So Adonalsium could've been Shattered differently...Which means there's different possible Intents...Which means there's probably a whole lot of different possible Intents...I mean come on, its god. Lots of layers there So what if the only way to improve on the whole of god is by improving the pieces, which in turn can only be improved by being separated into their current, purest form? A singe Intent of god, free to act in accordance of their purest Intent, without the context of the whole holding them back. Which may lead to a better or wiser Shard of god. Or not. I think it's important to remember that Intents(with the exception of Odium, which I believe to be necessarily "bad" but also a necessary part of a "perfect" god) are not necessarily "good" or "bad". They are their Intent. Just because an Intent sounds good, like Honor or Preservation, doesn't mean it necessarily has to be so. Or if it even can be, as it becomes more of a pure force over time. That’s the implication we seem to get over and over...Taken to their outer extremities, without the context of other Intents, ALL of the Shards would ultimately force an existence which most would not find palatable to exist in, or even could exist in. Does anyone want to want to live on the Scadrial that Ruin describes, in which Preservation is the ultimate power? Or the Roshar where Honor has been taken to its maximal limits? Or Cultivation's? That is the theme that runs through all we've learned about Shards and their nature. That without being part of the whole, All of the Shards are ultimately bad for the Cosmere. Vessels hold powers that will eventually consume them into a pure force. I say that NO Shard would ever be able to "keep to themselves" in the Cosmere. Eventually their Intent would consume them forcing them to spread. Imagine the same Cosmere, same events, just without Odium. Could Devotion and Dominion continue to coexist on Sel forever? Or would their Intents eventually push them until one or both was destroyed? Say it's Devotion who "wins", splintering Dominion and ruling the whole planet guided by the extreme tenets of all things devotion. Eventually turning Sel into an absolute miserable place to live. Shard Objective completed. Sel, check. Do we think Devotion will just stay there? Or will the force of the Intent not allow it? I do not believe that Intents ever allow for "that's enough". I believe on a long enough timeline, all Shards of all Intents will eventually try to consume the Cosmere with their Intent, regardless of the other Shards in their way Now all of that was a long way of saying that the 'correct' state of the Cosmere is with an intact Adonalsium. That no matter how Shattered, as long as god is in pieces, the Cosmere is moving towards destruction, while at the same time moving towards the higher state of perfection which would be gained by a reformed Adonalsium. So, back to this... #1: I generally find this unlikely..Almost. Not to beat a dead chull, but I find most scenarios where Adonalsium is caught completely unaware, unlikely. But, not exactly. Adonalsium can need to evolve without knowing it. And even though it's god we're talking about, that doesn't mean god has to realize that his current state is not the ultimate state. This scenario would really be saying that Adonalsium wanted to be Shattered, didn't see it coming, but then didn't try to stop them because he was like, "Jeez, finally... Took y'all long enough." #2: Getting more likely, I think...Here we have Adonalsium knowing, as part of his divine knowledge, that he must be Shattered. So he goes along, doing his god thing, waiting for the time when his creations are able to kill him. Sees the Yolen16 and their plots coming from a 1000 years away and goes along with their machinations, ending in his Shattering. But if he wants to be Shattered, why would it be a waiting game? Why not skip to Scenario #3 where you just orchestrate your own death in pursuit of evolution, instead of waiting around for someone else to figure it out? Well, perhaps that is part of the trigger, as it were. If we start from the place where any fully-formed Adonalsium must eventually Shatter in order to evolve, then there must be a trigger...Something that starts the chain and says "Shatter-Time!". So we have Adonalsium...and he knows eventually he will need to be Shattered. I think it may be a little intellectually lazy to say that not only does god know he needs to die to evolve, but he also knows when he has stopped evolving and has arrived at the point of needing to be Shattered. #3: We've seen this before, yeah? Ruin spent hundreds and thousands of years manipulating the people of Scadrial into freeing the villain, whilst thinking themselves the heroes. I think Adonalsium would be capable of the same, manipulating the people of Yolen into believing that the only way to save the universe was to kill their god. When I first started mind-sketching this stuff out, this was the scenario I used as a starting point. Mostly because I was just trying to shoehorn myself to a place where Dragonsteel: Secret History is eventually a thing ;). And because it makes sense in a linear way. If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered, I suspect it would need to done by others who did not know that they were doing what god wanted, with the idea of this being mirrored in real world religious stories. Jesus was killed by people who thought they were doing the right thing and had no issue with the deed. Would it have been different had they known Jesus needed to die? If they knew, for a fact, that they were not killing a man but their god? I’m sure the Rayse of the Pharisee’s might still have been cool with it, but would the Leras? And even if the would-be Shatterers would still have been fine with killing a willing god, them even having that knowledge might change everything, as perhaps the group’s intent to kill a god was what was necessary. But back to my current point ;)…If Adonalsium needs to be Shattered by the unaware, who also have the desire and means to actually kill god, it would make sense for him to activate the all-time long con in order to orchestrate his own death while all of the players remain blissfully unaware of their parts in the play, making Ruin’s manipulation of Scadralian history look like the games that infants play. But while this scenario does make sense to me, it lacks choice and agency. So we have a near omniscient god who is so self-aware that he not only knows the time at which his evolution has stopped, but what must occur for the evolution to continue. And then guides people of his godly choosing to Shatter him in the way he knows he has to be in order to ultimately advance to the next, purer state of god. Ol’ Adonalsium has it all figured out and that’s just a little boring I think. Sure there is still massive uncertainty in this system post-Shattering, because as long as the reformation of Adonalsium is not guaranteed there is the possibility of the Cosmere being completely consumed by the hate of god. But still. But, to be fair, perhaps the reformation of Adonalsium is guaranteed. A system where a truly omniscient god knows and plots his own evolutionary course. He guides his creations to Shatter his power, knowing it must eventually reform into something more pure and perfect which he knows someone else will take up. A fatalistic system where all paths eventually lead to a new Adonalsium… Which in turn always leads to a Shattering…then to a new Adonalsium…And so on, to infinity. Backwards and forwards. A mirroring of real world proponents of our universe being in an endless series of “Big Bangs” and “Big Crunches”. The universe ‘bangs’ open, expands, expands, expands, eventually reaching a point where the process is somehow reversed. And then the universe ‘crunches’ in, contracting, contracting, contracting, until the “Bang” must happen again…and so on. But as opposed to the real universe in which the same stuff just gets thrown in new directions, each Cosmere cycle ends with a new and better god. Fatalistic, but still cool. I think all of the above scenarios are certainly plausible and each could make sense in their own ways, from both philosophical and narrative perspectives. But what would make the most sense from the perspective of one Brandon Sanderson? Well I won’t know that for a few decades, but I can at least guess(wrong;). And I guess a system where no outcome is guaranteed. My vote is for something like Scenario #4, or the The Talladega Nights Corollary. Jean Girad desperately wanted Ricky Bobby to win, freeing him to train dogs with Gregory full-time. But as much as he wanted to lose, if he gave even one inch to Ricky, he’d be invalidating everything he was that got him that point, thereby invalidating his desire to retire in the first place... In order to train dogs with Gregory full-time. I imagine a Cosmere where the endless cycle of Shatterings and Reformations in pursuit of the ultimate ideal of perfection, can only be achieved by taking the most difficult path. So let’s imagine I’m right about infinite Adonalsiums and let’s put me in the shoes of the Vessel of Adonalsium that was most recently Shattered, the Dalinar of their time, as it were…Call me, Bizzaro-nar. Say Bizzaro-nar was the person who defeated the latest incarnation of Odium, ending in the reformation of Adonalsium, which he took up and Ascended. Now I believe this will be a clear the board-type situation, where the new Adonalsium remakes the Cosmere anew, beginning the cycle anew. Which is bittersweet for all of our heroes, if true. You may have defeated Odium, continuing the Cosmere and Adonalsium down their path to perfection, but you still get wiped out. Its seems fatalistic and totally unfair, but I think it’s the way it would have to go. Every last thing in the Cosmere will have been created by the previous, less-perfect Adonalsium. How can those creations have a place in the new Cosmere of the new, more-perfect Adonalsium? They are inferior by definition, having not been made by the current Adonalsium. Shallan, Kaladin, all the other characters we know and love, would be an inferior part of a new pursuit of perfection… So Adonalsium starts from scratch…He shoots around, doing god stuff. Trying to attain a perfect Cosmere…Whatever that is. So now we get to the trigger. Why Shatter? When? I believe the Vessel of Adonalsium shapes and guides their Cosmere as they strive for their perfect form, eventually reaching the evolutionary brick wall which necessitates their Shattering. The Critical Fail, as it were. But what is this failure? I believe it’s the same failure every time. You have failed most spectacularly as a god whenever your creations try and succeed in killing you. Whenever beings you have created are able to rationalize, plot, and carry out the murder of the Supreme Being in their universe, you have failed in the most ultimate way and can go on no further down the path. The Shattering was not only the method of killing god, it was the proof for it needing to be done. So it’s not really a trigger, I suppose. It’s just another inevitability in the cycle. If Adonalsium can never truly be perfect but can only keep striving towards it, then the same must be said for the Cosmere. And I say an imperfect Cosmere will always lead to some of god’s creations believing they must kill god in order to save their universe. The paragon of hubris. So back to Bizzaro-nar. He’s flitting around and through his near-infinite wisdom sees the Yolen16 coming. And he’s all like, “You’ve got to be kidding me! All I’ve done for these people, all I’ve done for the whole freaking Cosmere, and they’re plotting to kill me??” Which leads Bizzaro-nar to a breakthrough as he uses his super-deific-understanding powers to realize what a total failure this makes him and that Shattering is the only way forward. But even knowing it needed to happen I still think he’d fight any attempt tooth and nail because I think Cosmere natural selection should hold that Adonalsium would not reach a point where he had to Shatter until he was able to be Shattered. Or to rephrase, if you can stop from being Shattered, you haven’t reached a point where you need to be Shattered. Or, perhaps Ascending to Adonalsium still doesn't mean that you get the whole picture of the cycle of Cosmere's and your place in it. Maybe Adonalsium always fights the Shattering because he doesn't know his part in the play either and just doesn't want to die. And if you don't know you need to die, you probably will fight it with all your godly might. Which ties back into the circle. In order to evolve to a better Adonalsium, your best must be able to be beaten. And if your best cannot be beaten then it's not time yet. So Bizarro-nar loses to the Yolen 16 and the power of Adonalsium is Shattered into the 16 Intents. But why those Intents? Wob’s have said they could’ve been different Intents, so why those? Well, I’ve already covered 1 as I think Odium has to necessarily be part of the party. Now I’ve seen some people theorize that Adonalsium was Shattered into those Intents because it had something to do with mirroring what was in each of the 16 Shatterers, but I think that it’s backwards. That Adonalsium was Shattered into the Intents not in accordance with the motivations of the 16, but rather because it was the failures most in those Intents that led the Yolen16 on their path. Those are the Intents that got us into this mess, those are the one’s that’ll get us out . The Yolen16 may have thought they were directing things, perhaps even thinking they had a hand in how the Intents shook out. But little did they know that any successful Shattering would only succeed in the exact way that it did. So there you have it....Way too long and and almost certainly wrong!...Just as promised Now to just sit back and wait for Rshara to post a WoB completely invalidating every thing I've said. I imagine it'll be something like this:

My wife and I both work nights, while during the day she goes to grad school/grows a baby and I watch our current baby...Which means I spend a lot of time with a 16 month old ;). One of the things we've done since she's been old enough to sit up is we'll go in her room for reading time. It started off me reading her children's books until she got fidgety and would go playing with/"reading" her books, while I sat and read my own(usually Cosmere;). A month or so ago she started getting annoyed with my reading silently...Started grabbing my finger and and moving it over the lines in whatever I was reading. So, I started reading aloud. Now, people tend to say I have a nice speaking voice. Its deep and velvety But I have always disliked it. Mostly because a lingering lisp from childhood that no one else notices, makes me self-conscious. It's not much these days...'discs', 'paths', and the like make me lock up trying to spit it out. But, I've always wanted to be less self-conscious about reading aloud and reading for your daughter is about a good of motivation as you can get. So I read. Every day, for about 30 minutes. And she eats it up. When we first started, I was just reading whatever I happened to be reading that day, but then decided to just read Edgedancer to her, start to finish. And it's her favorite. Not even close. She'll sit almost the entire time I'm reading, hanging on every word. I stop to drink some water or clear my throat and she'll start grabbing my finger and moving it across the page, imploring me to start again. Hilarious. She didn't do it for the other stuff...Just Edgedancer. I guess its just because how smoothly the writing flows and having a child protagonist makes the dialogue pleasing to a child's ears. But whatever it is, Edgedancer is officially my baby's jam. Thanks for yet another benefit, Team Sanderson.

I get way too excited just reading this list...Its comforting to know I'll have great, new reading material for the next 3 decades. (My wife also enjoys that she can just keep getting me Dragonsteel editions as presents for the rest of my life;)

Thank you for giving me some well thought-out explanations to think about..Appreciate it

These theory words are accepted! Excellent work. If you don’t mind me hijacking the title I was going to write up something a little more fleshed out, once my trickster baby goes to bed

So Brandon has RAFO'd the number of vessels for Adonalsium. Perhaps if what @hoiditthroughthegrapevine and @Firerust are saying is on the right track, perhaps this Shattering of this Adonalsium is merely the latest in an infinite number of vessels of Adonalsium , paralleling real world cosmology ideas that our universe is in a cycle of "Big Bangs" and "Big Crunches". That each Adonalsium goes and exists, building his Cosmere and striving to be the perfect form of whatever god would consider perfect. Adonalsium goes until something triggers his willful destruction..Say until his creations advance enough to be able to destroy him, or maybe until he cannot improve himself anymore so he must allow the Shattering because it's something like and that he gets to a point in godly evolution in which he has to Shatter in order to reform as a better Adonalsium. Perhaps its such that its actually impossible for Adonalsium to not reform. Either because of some inherent part of the power that makes up the Shards will eventually force the powers to manipulate themselves to reform, regardless of the what the individual Shard Vessels want..ie..Adonalsium must always exist, so eventually it will exist again. Or, the omnipotence and omniscience of Adonalsium is such that it would be impossible for the current Shardholders to escape his long term plan for the eventual reformation and Ascension of the next Vessel of Adonalsium. Or, even more interesting(to me anyway) would be if the reformation of Adonalsium and the continuation of the the cycle was not guaranteed. There is no inherent force or plan guiding the Shards back together, they have to fight. I remember Perrin Aybara telling me that metal cannot be shaped without blows from the hammer Perhaps every cycle is a new contest where the winner is a new, better Adonalsium and consequentially a better cosmere, and yet another tiny, infinite step towards a perfect cosmere. A contest of whether the best aspects of god can overcome the worst. Or whether this will be the time that the worst of god reigns, after their destruction of the rest.

As the others mentioned, it covers a different time period and I can't say more without spoiling. This may sound dumb, but I'm so excited for you to read Secret History! Especially given you thought it was more of a Kelsier prequel...Because that's what I thought it was at first too and consequently didn't read it until after I had read all of the other Cosmere books..Boy was I wrong Its so awesome and really gives you some great information that not only gives greater depth to the Mistborn trilogy, but makes it make way more sense! And it'll give a greater cosmere knowledge base as you head into Stormlight. Have fun man.

Excellent thoughts guys...This speaks to the part of me that can't stop thinking, Adonalsium must have had a plan, right?! We have seen Shard after Shard be really, really good at making long-term plans and predicting/manipulating events. Like really good . But not Adonalsium? Didn't see it coming? Was caught completely off-guard by 16 beings he created? For all the power and foresight that each Shard has shown so far, wouldn't Adonalsium's be faaaarrrr greater? As in about 16x's greater? But Adonalsium still "lost"? I've always had a hard time with the idea that a group of non-gods could figure out how to kill the ultimate god without that god seeing it coming from a billion miles away and preparing for it...I have to imagine its like when my baby tries to trick me. Whether Adonalsium wanted to be Shattered(for whatever his godly reasons were) and guided this group to do it, or simply saw the Shattering coming and let it happen according to how he wanted it to, I couldn't know...But I find it hard to accept that he was Shattered without seeing it coming, or saw it coming but had no way to stop it.

So about the "naming" of the Shards, as far as what people in the cosmere and other Shards refer to them as. This is something I've wondered about for awhile but I'm having trouble phrasing the question, so I'll just go with this... How? So however it occurs, the Shattering occurs. We saw this in MB:SH So my first assumption would be that immediately following the Shattering, there would be something similar going on, multiplied by 8...16 columns of powers, waiting to be taken up. When did the Vessels know what each represented? Could they sense it before they picked their Shard? Were Shards doled by a committee decision or was it a free-for-all as everyone just grabbed a Shard? Did every Vessel get the Shard they wanted or did the alphas of the Vessels seize what they wanted and leave the others to pick from the leavings? I know that's a lot of currently un-answerable questions but I get confused by some stuff when I think about actually being at the Shattering and the choices that would've had to been made. Because it seems to me that we've been led to believe that it wasn't a random free-for-all and there was purpose behind who took up what Shard. But in order for there to be purpose in who took up what Shard, wouldn't they have to know what each Shard represented before they took them up? This is an over-simplified metaphor, but could they look at all those columns and see blinking signs over them proclaiming "Ruin!", "Cultivation!", "Dominion!", etc..as in instinctively sensing what each Shard represented? And if they knew, pre-Ascension, what each Shard represented: Why would a kind and generous man like Ati take up Ruin if he had a choice? Why would they let a loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individual like Rayse take up the most frightening and dangerous of all the Shards? It seems Rayse being the worse wasn't much of a secret, so you would think if everyone knew that one of the 16 Shards was Odium, they would do whatever it took to keep it out of his hands. Or, is it a matter of a Shard being impossible to box in with a single word like Devotion or the like? That the Vessels could sense the general, over-arching power of the Shard before they took it up, but could not know the exact Intent. As in they didn't see "Ruin", they sensed that this is the power of change. Not "Cultivation", but the power of growth. Not "Odium" but the power of passion. And then once each Vessel Ascended they learned the true, specific Intent of the power they held...and also the truth of what everyone else held. Because it's seems that there is mostly cosmere-wide agreement on what each Shard's name is...And I doubt they held meet-n-greet, post-Ascension("Hi, what I hold is actually Ruin.".."Oh, cool, I'm Dominion"..."Looks like I got Odium everyone!".."Groans...") The only disagreement lies with Odium, as he seems to claim he represents the passions of god, not his hate. So did everyone see all the Shards, generally sense what each represented, pick a Shard/be drawn to a Shard/take whatever was left, Ascend and realize what they actually all were, and then Odium put his fingers in his ears and was like "Nope, not Odium, passion..La-la-la, I can't hear you...I'm Passion...I don't care what you say." And then everyone was just like, "crap".

In MB:SH, the members of the Ire are described as looking kind of Elantarian and 2 of them mention Devotion So we have ancient, cosmere/Shards-aware beings who speak of Devotion like they not only knew of her as a god concept, but as an actual un-splintered and interactive god. Would these members of the Ire be the initial Elantris geniuses you're postulating? Because those Devotion mentions have been itching my brain and I think your idea would explain them using Devotions's full name as opposed to "merciful domi" or some other generic curse(like other Elantarians we've come across in the Cognitive) or the like. My thinking would be the framework you outlined is probably right with the details of the "somethings" that happened to be filled in later. So say, Elrao, Alonoe, and others were the ones who figured out the Dor, its relationship to Devotion, built Elantris, and probably a lot of other cool stuff. They became cosmere aware, started exploring the Cognitive, maybe even some light worldhopping. Then the big "something" happened that forced them away permanently.(Would this have to be the Splinterings or are their other likely scenarios?). Then And this next wave base their own religions based off of the concepts of Devotion they suss out from what the original Elantarians have left behind, without ever actually knowing the real deity. Is this what you're thinking or am I off-base with my assumptions?

I've been thinking on similar things but as it relates to Harmony and his dual Shards. We know from the Oathbringer epigraphs that The question I have been thinking on, is whether there is a way for Harmony to tip his Intent scale to one Shard or the other by divesting himself of some Intent? Or will the Intent of Preservation or Ruin be just as strong no matter what, keeping Sazed in forever conflict? I guess what I'm asking is whether or not a Shard's Intent can be lessened/divested, or only just their power? And if so, could Sazed use this method to 'free' himself up a little bit?..ie.. If he could tip the Intent scale a little bit to either Preservation or Ruin, would that allow him to better use the powers of his conflicting Shards? My thinking was that you cannot lessen/diffuse Intent like a Shard could do with their power...Gross oversimplification follows: Preservation could split his power into 100 pieces. Each piece would only have 1% of Preservation's power but would still have 100% of Preservation's Intent. I'm just trying to figure out how Harmony is going to get to play

I don't think you can separate insanity from a person's SW. If you are insane, your SW is cracked. Taln is extra insane, therefore his SW must be extra cracked. Which is all I was saying. His SW was such a massive cluster that it needed something massive..ie..reformation of Honor's perpendicularity, to be able to heal it, if even for a short time.

So I'm sure someone more schooled in Realmatic Theory can give you a better technical explanation , but I took it as such: Taln is completely broken because his Spirit Web is an absolute shambles. Think about the 'broken' people who become Knights Radiant. They have cracks in their Spirit Web that are then 'filled in' by their bond. But those are just cracks After 4,500 continuous years of torture, that was preceded by Adonalsium knows how many hundreds and thousands years before the breaking of the Oathpact, Taln's Spirit Web must look like a single spider web stretched around a skyscraper...Most ends snapped and frayed, the entire thing held together by just a few connections. All the Heralds are crazy because of the torture they endured, but Taln is a different kettle of cremlings. But then Dalinar reformed Honor's perpendicularity which flooded Taln's SW, filling in all the gaps for a time allowing him his time of lucidity.

So my question is this; so we have post-Nightwatcher visit Lift who is infused with stormlight every time she eats...How does this affect her growth? If she is indeed older than she appears, could constant infusions of stormlight explain it? Say Lift asks to never change(or the like) and the Nightwatcher gives her the boon of metabolizing food into stormlight, giving her a steady stream of SL whether she wants it or not, which in turn drastically alters the rate at which her cells age. I'm not positing anything, I'm just not sure what the effect would be. I know BS has said that the KR didn't live crazy long lives or anything, but do we have any ideas on what the aging consequences would be if you had a steady stream of stormlight in you through adolescence(along with existing partially in the Cognitive Realm;)?