8bitBob

Basically, there is no modern understanding of the Cognitive Realm. When Shallan describes it to Jasnah at the end of WoK, she is shocked and asks her where she learned about it. It seems unlikely that Jasnah could not pry this information from the ardents in Kholinar. Heretic or not, she is sister to the King and one of the most prominent scholars in the world. I think it is more likely that Kabsal is correct, and Soulcaster fabrials are not as complex to use as Soulcaster surgebinding (with the likely trade off of being less flexible, which is another thing said of them.) A tool made for a task rather than a set of paint brushes, if you will. While I'm sure they are devilishly complex to design and build, fabrials have been presented as fairly simple to operate so far. Nah, Inquisitors had some level of Feruchemy before the death of the Lord Ruler. This is why they had to rest for extended periods of time, and why they had accelerated healing far beyond Pewter, like when Vin cuts up the Inquisitor's face and he walks back into the room fully healed shortly after.

Point of clarity: your weight does not necessarily affect the amount of force you can Steelpush with. There's a bit of confusion surrounding this, as Kelsier claims he had an advantage against Vin, but he could simply be referring to the fact that, if both of them push on something, she will fly away faster due to her smaller mass, rather than her having weaker steelpushes. I'm currently doing a reread of the original trilogy, and I'm hoping to be able to gain some insight into this, but it is not clear cut. It gets even more complicated when you think about Wax. On the one hand, all of his most impressive pushes have involved increasing his weight, but on the other hand, he specifically says it gets harder to push himself as his weight increases and he slows down, which implies he's not pushing any harder. Regardless, even if your personal weight plays a factor, that still does not mean wearing Plate makes you push harder. It would allow you to push on objects without getting knocked back as far, but you can accomplish the same thing by pushing or pulling on another anchor to counteract it (like basically every Mistborn we've seen do.) Remember that this scenario is based around the idea that Roshar and Scadrial are at war. It is entirely plausible for Scadrial to kill Shardbearers during the conflict and steal their Shards. We have seen Szeth kill multiple Shardbearers plus dozens of infantry by himself, and regular Mistborn are supposed to be more dangerous than him according to WoB. I see no reason why they can't get their hands on a few and then use them to fight Kaladin. You're making the assumption here that Mistborn are preparing to fight other Mistborn, which is not the case here. There's no reason they wouldn't bring Atium to fight against non metalborn. Maybe in the very first battle if they knew nothing about each other, but this is a war, not a single fight. You are massively, massively underestimating Atium here. For a long time, it was basically assumed that the only way to beat someone with Atium is to have more Atium. It is literally the ability to perfectly predict what your opponent is going to do, and expanding your mind to be able to interpret these possibilities and react accordingly. It is a God metal. It is OP. As for being physically superior, I think you're forgetting that Pewter exists. If Kaladin or Szeth can fight Shardbearers with Stormlight, then I have no doubt that Mistborn could, never mind the fact that they could literally see the future. I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Kaladin is going to get stronger? I mean, sure, most likely, but he's still just one guy. Basically, it comes down to whether or not they have access to Feruchemical speed, which not every Inquisitor did. If I was Scadrial, first thing I'd do is give a stolen Shardblade to one who did and have him assassinate Kaladin with a massive burst of speed. It's kind of hard to fight someone who moves faster than you can see and can kill you in one hit.

Well, that assumes that having Plate actually increases your ability to push, rather than simply behaving as a bunch of dead weight around you, which would just make it harder for you to get around via Steelpush. Possible, but who knows. It probably puts him above a vanilla Mistborn, sure, but there's a few things to consider: This assumes no Atium This assumes the Mistborn does not have a Shardblade, which they can acquire during the war Inquisitors (at least some) are much more powerful than Mistborn due to having access to Feruchemical abilities and stronger Allomancy Kaladin is just one man and by far the most dangerous proto-Radiant we've seen in action, whereas there are a fair number of Inquisitors and Mistborn Personally, I'd give a massive advantage to an Inquisitor with a Shardblade over Kaladin in a straight fight. Now, if we're talking pre-Recreance Roshar (with tonnes of Radiants) vs TFE Scadrial, then I assume Scadrial is going to have a much harder time of it, but that's a whole other discussion. Also, just as a sidenote, Szeth can still surgebind if his Honorblade is dismissed.

I've finished my WoK and WoR reread, and I've come across some interesting info. This scene is actually interesting. Long story short, he actually one hit kills both Shardbearers in this scene. One with a stone and one with his Honorblade, both of which utilized repeated Lashings and falling a fair distance. Both Shardbearers had been lightly knocked around by things like falling spearmen, but it was played off as a distraction, and at no point were they described as having their armor cracked or leaking Stormlight. For the stone, the details are vague. He lashes a stone of indeterminate size exactly twenty times, it falls an indeterminate distances and shatters the breastplate, killing the user. From reading the scene, the stone appears to at least be smaller than a man's torso, as it was not described as crushing him or damaging anything other than the breastplate. The distance it falls is harder to determine, but the battle takes place in a banquet hall of some sort, so it could only fall so far. Based on this, I still think it pretty likely that a Coinshot could generate that level of force if they had some more distance to work with. Worst case scenario, you get some Mistings to work as a team, instantly doubling the force you can output after they get some practice aiming as a team. I don't think this would be necessary though. So it seems we may be wrong about how difficult it is to Soulcast: Shallan assumes that Kabsal is wrong because that's not how Jasnah does it, but we of course learn that she never had one anyway. Kabsal has apparently heard this from multiple sources, and I don't see why he'd be lying to Shallan about this. If it is truly that simple, it is actually possible that you could learn how to operate a Soulcaster simply through observation. I imagine Intent plays a role still, but it still seems like it could work. Turns out we're probably wrong here: The source is a bit unfortunate in that there was some confusion and it is paraphrased, but unless they completely misunderstood Brandon's clarification, it seems to indicate that you can indeed push on stuff while inside Plate. The idea of a Mistborn in Plate suddenly becomes terrifying. Last bit of info to discuss: That is pretty crazy if you think about it. Right up until Kaladin kills him, Szeth is presented as by far the most dangerous combatant on Roshar. The fact that a Mistborn can go toe to toe, to say nothing of an Inquisitor, does not give me much hope for Roshar in a conflict. This doesn't even account for something like the Mistborn getting their hands on a Shardblade.

I mean, this is theoretically possible, but it seems very unlikely. Why would another God's metal rewrite your sDNA in such a way that it mimics another God's investiture? Again, possible, but this also has problems. For one, we don't actually know whether or not Harmonium has alloys yet. Brandon has been a bit vague on the matter, so we'll have to see. We also haven't had any indication that God metals can be alloyed together. Finally, if it was an alloy with one of the base sixteen, then the Southerners should have still have plenty of Feruchemists walking around and no need for medallions, because they could make it. While I suspect it is possible to make someone a Feruchemist using advanced realmatics, it seems unlikely that we'll be seeing it any time soon. Also, I hate to repeat mini-mod, but you should not be triple posting, as per the forum rules. Specifically:

Alright. Are you proposing this is Sazed's God metal, a different God's metal, or an alloy of one?

This is also confirmed to be incorrect. Harmonium = Sazedium = Ettmetal. Sazed calls it Harmonium specifically because he doesn't like the name Sazedium. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying still. Are you proposing there is a new God metal, or a new basic metal, or what? Is it a metal we've seen but misunderstood? Are you still proposing it grants Feruchemy when tapped by anyone? Also, hate to mini-mod, but it is generally frowned upon to double post. It is preferable to make one large, well formatted post than to break them into separate posts.

Hmm? Are you saying Ettmetal may not be Harmonium? I can't pull up the WoB at the moment, but it is confirmed that Ettmetal is Harmonium. Yata is right here. The Southerners use Harmonium extensively, yet still need to use medallions to become temporary Feruchemists. If Harmonium has a Feruchemical effect, it seems very unlikely that it makes you a Feruchemist. edit: Figured I'd take the time to pull up the WoB:

Fair point. I'd say it's a fair concession that Roshar would fair better the larger the line of battle was. I guess it would ultimately come down to whether or not you could stretch the Coinshots, Lurchers and Mistborn far enough across the army to create dead zones in the protection. Right, I forgot about that scene. I'm currently in the middle of a WoK reread, so I'll have to pay special attention to Szeth's murders. Thanks for the heads up on this. Personally, Steel/Iron consumption is actually one of the things I'm least worried about in this conflict. So much of the Allomantic combat we've seen is shaped by the assumption that your enemy will mess with your metal, but that's not an issue here. Like, if you compare the cost in steel to outfit an army in basic gear and create arrow tips, it makes the metal burned by mistings seem tiny by comparison. You don't even have to bother turning them into shavings so they'll make poor anchors either. Just swallow a nearly endless supply of cheap beads throughout the battle and make sure to burn off your excess reserves at the end of the day. Just a thought, but are all Ardent's Alethi? If I were a Kandra, I'd disguise as whatever race was not already present and imitate them. WoB says that most Rosharan's are super racist, and they often have a harder time picking on the subtle differences between people of different races, so you could potentially have an easier time of it. If you pick a people who speak a different language then it becomes even easier, because it'll explain away your likely weak command of the language. This would still take years to do (mainly to learn a basic competence in the language) but it could potentially be easier this way. Alternatively, just disguise as a horse or Parshmen and nick it when you get the chance. You can work out the mechanics later, and every lost soulcaster cripples the Alethi infrastructure. Honestly, I kind of suspect this too. One of the questions I desperately want to ask Brandon is if a Coinshot could push on objects if he was in Shardplate. The chances of this happening are unlikely enough that he may answer.

They can't be everywhere for an entire war, but they can certainly be everywhere for a battle. It's important to remember how absurdly mobile Coinshots are compared to a medieval army, and their area of influence is pretty massive. I admit that their influence is reduced as the size of the warfront increases, but the same could be said of Shards and fabrials. Long range arrow fire is robbed of a lot of its force during flight, and their actual momentum is quite small by arrival. I don't see why Coinshots couldn't just push the arrows back passed their own front line. Again, I don't think this would work perfectly every time, but it would render Rosharan ranged weaponry nearly useless. Alternatively, I would actually use Lurchers for this role. Basically, you set up a massive pile of hay or something in front of a strong backing, set a Lurcher behind them and safely pull the arrows into it. This would be the safest and easiest way to go about it for a large battle, assuming you have any prep time. Yep, I'm familiar with that WoB. I assume you'd have to use a literal cannon shot to do it, but Coinshot physics is honestly absurd if you do the math. They're capable of generating force far greater than even modern handheld weaponry. That's why I compared it to something more like cannon fire, which is going to be much more effective. I admit I'm doing a lot of guess work there, but it's all based on feats we've seen in books, and I think I was conservative enough with my numbers for it to be plausible. Basically, barring some unknown magic rule about Plate that says it can always take two hits before breaking, then I see no reason why a Coinshot couldn't do it if a person with a hammer can. They don't have to take their ammo with them when fleeing or repositioning. Would be a far better use of personnel to have the regular troops set up caches of ammunition in advance, and cart more ammo in the new firing position. Better to leave a bunch of scrap metal than risk your wizards, or waste their time. I basically don't disagree with your points here: Plate would be a long term goal. I do have some nitpicks about stealing Plate though. I think you're underestimating a Mistborn or Inquisitor's ability to perform a smash and grab. Tin let's them see perfectly at night, when Alethi scouts are basically blind and would have a hard time spotting something that is, you know, basically flying into their camp. Escaping is as simple as throwing the Plate in a chain net and hauling it behinds you via Ironpull as you Steelpush away. We basically saw Kelsier do something similar in the first book with a safe. Thing is, stealing the Blades is arguably far, far more important, and much more easily accomplished. Plate without a Blade is basically just a very well trained Koloss. Okay, I'm underselling Plate a lot here, but you get my point. It robs them of their incredible killing power and the one real weapon that Allomancers can't push on. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true. A Mistborn or Inquisitor with a Shardblade is something closer to Kaladin or Szeth, minus the skill with weaponry, and you do not have to bond with a Blade to kill with it (although I am now amused by the idea of someone accidentally bonding with a Blade and then losing it because they can't summon it). They would be able to do incredible things with that increase in offensive power. I'm basically assuming they'll never get soulcasters working without the war going on for years, with Kandra infiltrating to learn their secrets and steal them. They seem much more complicated. So yeah, I basically agree with this in relation to everything except Blades, but I also feel that Blades are by far the most important and fairly easy to acquire.

I realise that I'm super late to this discussion, but I figured I'd chime in with my opinion on Era 1 vs Roshar because I feel there's some very important factors that have not been adequately addressed. I'm basically using the same premise suggested by Erunion here. Long story short, it's all of Roshar at the start of WoK vs The Final Empire at the start of TFE. That means no Heralds, Honor Blades, Radiants, randomly trained Chasmfiends, Parshendi, etc for Roshar. Similarly, that means no Lord Ruler (He wins. Period. The Lord Ruler going to war could probably fight all ten Heralds and all of Roshar by himself) no Duralumin, no directly controlling Koloss, no self replenishing Koloss and no Feruchemy (aside from limited Inquisitors.) The forces are warring on neutral ground, but still have access to Stormlight, metals, etc. So, why am I bothering to chime in? Because, unlike others, I feel Roshar gets absolutely crushed under these restrictions, and it comes down to a few key facts about the forces involved: 1. Roshar Uses Steel Equipment Aside from Shards, Roshar uses metal for most of its equipment. I cannot adequately express how much of an advantage this gives Scadrial. How in God's name are you supposed to assault a force that can: Deflect every arrow you fire at them, either by Steelpushing them or using Lurchers to safely pull them into a single target. Foul up any melee charge at their line by pushing or pulling on the forces as they close in Even if the Rosharan forces magically realised that metal was the culprit and decided to refit their entire army, what would they even use? Stone? Bone? Good luck using that to penetrate the steel plate that your opponents are still allowed to use. I realise that neither of these tactics will work 100% of the time, but this in itself is such an insurmountable advantage for Scadrial that it almost makes my next points seem superfluous. 2. Coinshots Are Overpowered When pitted against medieval technology, it honestly seems ridiculous how powerful Coinshots would be in comparison. Aside from the aforementioned complete nullification of the enemies projectiles, they also have so much more killing power than a bowmen that the comparison becomes laughable. Quick explanation time. With traditional bows and crossbows, there's two factors that determine the speed at which a projectile is fired: draw length and draw weight. A very heavy crossbow would have something like 1200lbs (455kg) of draw weight and up to 10.5 inches (0.267m) of draw length, and these were more than capable of penetrating even the strongest plate armor at close ranges. I'm going to give some incredibly conservative estimates on the abilities of Coinshots here. To lift themselves, a Coinshot needs to be able to Steelpush with a force at least equal to their weight, but we've seen Wax and others do far more than that. He's carried people while pushing, lifted the Wilg hundreds of feet into the air with equipment on board, etc. Let's just say that a Coinshot can push with 500lbs (227kg) of "force" up to a distance 50 meters. While less than half the "draw weight" of a very heavy crossbow medieval crossbow, a Coinshot would have almost two hundred times the "draw length" due to being able to push on the projectile in flight. There are way too many factors in this to bother with calculating things like velocity and penetrating power, but, even assuming a uniform acting force for the crossbow (in reality, it's much lower) then the Coinshot will still be performing almost 100 times the Work on the projectile that a crossbow would. This level of force is honestly something closer to a cannon or modern rifle than it is a crossbow, and the estimates are very conservative. I realise that the exact calculations for these things are far more complex than I am letting on here, but this should convey the sheer magnitude of difference between the two. So, why does this matter? Because the killing power of a Coinshot on a battlefield is going to be horrific, versatile and maneuverable. Imagine you were commanding a medieval army, and at your disposal you had a couple dozen rapid firing cannons that could be instantly set up, repositioned faster than a mounted force, was impossible to run down because they can basically instantly take off and fly away, and able to fire anything from a full volley of arrows to heavy cannon shot at will. If a group of vanilla humans can break Shardplate with hammers, then a Coinshot with sufficient distance would smash Shardplate, to say nothing of the effects on regular infantry. Forget Koloss. I simply do not see how a Rosharan force without Radiants would have any hope of taking on a force with Coinshots at their disposal. 3. "Hey, neat stuff you got there. I'mma take it." To me, there is one other huge advantage for Scadrial: they can kill Shardbearers and take their stuff, while Rosharan's cannot do the same. Maybe it doesn't happen immediately, but if Scadrial ever figured out that they can use Shards, then you can bet that there is immediately going to be an assassination campaign from the Mistborn and Inquisitor forces. Honor is Dead on Roshar, but it would be fair to say that it never even existed in The Final Empire. Remember that Mistborn were more commonly used as assassins and spies, not soldiers. They are very experienced in this sort of thing, and they would have no qualms about using skaa or Koloss to bait in Shardbearers, which are going to be needed everywhere to counteract the massive advantage which Allomancy provides. God forbid the assassins use Atium for this, which kind of lowers the risks to near minimum. With every shard you steal, the others become easier to acquire. I realise my points ignore things like tactics, training, experience, leadership, logistics, etc, all of which favor Roshar, but I've also ignored things like Rioting panic in the enemy, Soothing panic for your forces, Kandra spying, Inquisitor's Feruchemy, etc. Both sides have a lot of positives and negatives which I did not cover, but I think those things are nowhere near as important as these factors. That isn't to say that it's impossible for Roshar to win, but they're basically bringing fancy swords to a magic fight. No contest.

This contradicts the Ars Arcanum: Is there some WoB that says otherwise?

Yeah, that's how I see it. I can't imagine mass storing being efficient if Nicrosil is consumed though. Compounding is just way too efficient at that point. Uh, did I miss something? I've never seen anything about being able to convert fat into Bendalloy reserves, and I was under the impression that you had to store while you were consuming. Is there a WoB I missed?

I basically agree with the idea that Feruchemical Steel ignores all kinds of physics problems like the ones you described, but I don't feel that it is too strong by itself. Running out of speed quickly and speed being hard to collect means you can't just use it endlessly. By itself, this means that Steelrunners, like most Ferrings, can be supremely dangerous for short bursts, but can't just endlessly take on the world. The other issue is the matter of tapping large amounts of an attribute at once, which is uniquely powerful for speed. With an attribute like weight or heat, if you tap it all at once then you have a very short window of opportunity to use the burst of power. Speed is unique in that tapping more also increases your window of use, because even though you have less time, you just move faster. I suspect this is why Brandon kept the heat due to friction limitation, as it means you can't just super tap speed and kill an entire army in the blink of an eye. With these limitations, F-Steel is certainly powerful, but not unbeatable. The real issue is when you get into things like compounding and ability mixing. Having infinite speed, or being able to heal faster than you burn from friction, would make you pretty unstoppable. This is likely why no one aside from the Lord Ruler has been able to do this yet. Now that medallions are a thing, we're likely to start seeing individuals do things like this, but I'm reminded of a WoB from another topic. Words of Radiance spoilers: Highlighted the most relevant portion. Similar to Nightblood, these medallion wielding Steel compounders would be stronger than most things we've seen, but they're going to have to contend with things like Gold compounders, or Thugs in suits of allomatically inert three inch thick, nearly impenetrable armor, or unnaturally powerful Crashers using Duralumin to Steelpush on their surroundings so hard that they can rip out the metal reserves in your stomach. Basically, I'm saying things are about to get crazy power-wise, and compounding Steel is just one of the many flavours on the menu.

I've been thinking about topics like this a fair bit lately, and I think it's almost guaranteed F-Bendalloy coins are used extensively (assuming they have the correct metalborn to create them.) The benefits are many and obvious. One thing I suspect is not done though are "feeding factories" like described here: I suspect that nearly all attribute production is done through compounding, rather than mass storing. Why? Because unless the person doing the storing is a natural or hemalurgically gifted Subsumer, then it means that they would need to constantly be tapping Investiture to store Energy. Why do I think it drains the Nicrosil? Relevant BoM passage: It's clearly implied by Wax that using the Bands of Mourning drains the stored Investiture, i.e. Nicrosil. Seeing as the BoM is basically just a Super Medallion, I cannot imagine regular medallions not being limited in the same manner. Now, I suspect that Wax was tapping large quantities at once, which is why they drained so fast, but you would still need to tap at a rate that allows you to be as strong as a regular Ferring if you wanted to store food. Why? Because we know that Hemalurgy granted Feruchemy (meaning weak Feruchemy) is "leaky" when storing, so you lose some of the attributes while storing. Relevant WoB: This means that, even if everything is 100% efficient, you would need to waste 5 minutes of Nicrosil tapping to store 5 minutes of food consumption. Seeing as Nicrosil is made from Chromium, which is a fairly rare metal, and is required in every medallion to both create the device and compound the Investiture, I suspect it is immediately going to become the most valuable metal on Scadrial. Because of this, I cannot imagine it would be cost efficient to spend Nicrosil to create Bendalloy reserves. I think it's more likely that almost all metal reserves, including Bendalloy, are created through compounding. This would also result in a net increase in food overall, rather than simply better storage and transport, which is much more desirable.

Shallan's flashback chapters often used present tense in WoR. No reason the same thing could not be happening here.

First off, a hearty thanks for those WoB. Some really good stuff in there. I'd give you more rep if I could. Question for people in general here: has Brandon ever used "unsealed" instead of "unkeyed"? I was under the impression that this was a fan distinction.

WoB says that cognitive shadows have issues leaving their system. There's several WoB on the subject, but this is the one I had on hand. Secret History spoilers: A body apparently helps, but there's still issues involved. I think it's entirely possible for Kelsier to work this out though.

This is unfortunately not the best place to discuss this, what with the need of spoiler tags, but I'll respond a bit here. As for being "too full," the full quote is actually more compelling: "Yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full." Specifically, it gives wiggle room on what is actually "full" or not by saying that it can be argued. To go back to my air pressure metaphor, it could be that Hemalurgy doesn't generate enough force to stuff more air into the already filled container. This is why I'm seeking information on whether or not "full" is a looser term than we've come to believe, similar to how "you cannot push on metals inside someone's body" turned out to be only a partial answer for standard use cases

@The One Who Connects is correct here, and you're mixing up two WoB, neither of which was related to metalmind size. I believe these are the ones you're referring to:

Here's my attempt at spitballing some questions for Brandon, on account of the fact that I live in a place in Canada that is not Toronto, so I doubt I'll ever get a chance to attend an event. I've attempted to ask and phrase questions in such a way that they won't be automatically RAFO, but still potentially be useful for theorizing. I'll do a little write up for why I think it may be useful for each, so you have some context for why it would be interesting. Most of them are based on topics I've discussed before though, so they're a bit selfish in attempting to answer my own curiosities. 1) We've been told that metalminds have a point where they're "full," but could a strong Feruchemist fill a metalmind with more of an attribute than a weak Feruchemist? 2) Do Twinborn actually use the attribute stored in their metalminds when compounding, or is the Investiture from Preservation just imitating it and the power inside is lost? Follow up question if the attribute is in fact being lost: 2b) Does the amount of attribute stored inside affect how much attribute they get while burning? 3) Can Mistings burn unkeyed metalminds for Feruchemical powers? 4) Could Wax reforge one of his Ironminds into steel and then compound it for weight? 5) What would happen if you used Allomancy to burn a Hemalurgical spike while storing your Identity? That's the stuff I'm most curious about that isn't related to Harmonium, which I assume is just an instant RAFO until the Lost Metal comes out. I suspect everyone is burning to ask their own questions instead though, so let me know if you do decide to ask one of these so I can bug you for answers. Hope everyone has fun at the event. I'm only incredibly slightly jealous.

This was already confirmed in BoM, wasn't it? Relevant passage:

How do you figure? In the WoB from the OP, it's confirmed that you can change a metalmind from one viable metal to another. This is completely baseless conjecture, but I like the idea that you could hack the system to combine attributes. Like, you store Weight and Speed in steel, burn it and it combines to become Momentum, which would increase/decrease your body's force in the direction you're currently moving. Probably not the case, but it's neat to think about.

I am way too excited about having a fresh batch of WoB to pick through.