alder24

You're looking at the two dimensional projection of the three dimensional space - the Z axis is completely missing from this map and you can't accurately estimate distances between stars. While Roshar and Scadrial might look fairly close on the XY axes, on the Z axis they might be separated by dozens or hundreds of light years and the opposite might be true when considering their distance to the Drominad system. And while we know this image represents a real sky visible from some location in Cosmere, we don't know where it is and how far away from other stars is that place.  

44 minutes ago, Xabben said:

Okay, that makes sense. However, there are other parts of that night that are still a little bit strange. The parshendi (with the exception of Venli, which wanted to cause a war) only wanted to kill Gavilar to prevent him from causing a new Desolation. However, they gave oddly specific instructions to Szeth, indicating that he had to "kill, destroy, but leave witnesses. Wounded, but alive". I don't really understand why they would do such a thing, as they would only make Alethi angrier without a real reason...

That was probably Venli and Ulim's manipulation. They wanted a war, they wanted to enrage Alethi, so most likely Venli convinced the Five to give such specific orders. Ulim went as far as revealing himself to Klade as a voice, thus making others believe a spren, or other divine entities, are on their side. It helped them that it was also Listeners tradition for assassins to wear white and be visible to give a warning. Anyone knew this would mean a war, so showing off Szeth's powers could act as a deterrent or distraction and slow down Alethi in pursuing fleeing Listeners. 

WoK prologue:

Quote

White clothing for a killer was a tradition among the Parshendi. Although Szeth had not asked, his masters had explained why.
White to be bold. White to not blend into the night. White to give warning.
For if you were going to assassinate a man, he was entitled to see you coming.

OB prologue:

Quote

Klade’s slave was an assassin. Klade claimed that a voice—speaking to the rhythms—had led him to the man, who had confessed his skills when pressed. Venli had apparently been with Klade, though Eshonai hadn’t seen her sister since earlier in the day.
After a frantic debate, the Five had agreed this was a sign of what they were to do. Long ago, the listeners had summoned the courage to adopt dullform in order to escape their gods. They’d sought freedom at any cost.
Today, the cost of maintaining that freedom would be high.

RoW ch 77:

Quote

I don’t care why Nale thought we should attack the king, Ulim said. It has given me a seed of an idea. It’s not his plan, but your plan we’re following. We came here to make your people see how dangerous the humans are. But they are foolish, and you are wise. You can see how much of a threat they are. You need to show them.
“Yes,” Venli said. That was her plan.
Ulim slipped into her gemheart.
The humans are planning to betray you, Ulim said. A Herald confirmed it. We must strike at them first.
“And in so doing, make our people desperate,” Venli said. “When the humans retaliate, it will threaten our destruction. Yes … Then I could persuade the listeners they need forms of power. They must accept our help, or be annihilated.”

19 minutes ago, Xabben said:

I think it is implied somewhere that Szeth was abandoned as soon as they left Kholinar. Therefore, who kill these 100 horsemen? Surely not a small group of (mostly diplomats) parshendi... I suppose that it is a very minor detail, but it still bugs me.

Yes, but that was after he killed those riders and it was far enough from Kholinar that he could stand next to the road for quite some time before someone took notice of him. No more soldiers were sent after them and no patrol crossed his path. 

What's more, Parshendi had several Shardblades, it's very likely that were a few Shardbeares with them and it would make a lot of sense to send them with a diplomatic mission just in case. Even without Szeth, Shardbearers would have dealt with cavalry with ease, as no Alethi Shardbearer was sent in pursuit.  

19 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The thing to keep in mind is that, based on current data, what Iron is really manipulating is the Higgs Field.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense because the Higgs Field accounts for less than 1% of the actual mass of an atom (mass of each individual elementary particle like quarks and electrons), the rest comes from the binding energy that holds atoms together. Let's just stick to saying that F-iron manipulates mass (not weight) and the magic lets the density remain unchanged. 

On 6/12/2026 at 7:24 PM, Sythrin said:

Do you think in the future its possible to alter alter density and make somebody not only heavier but also tougher and stronger?

The Focused Ones are achieving the same effect but with Tension. When relaxed they are fat and large, but they can compress themselves down to the size of a normal Singer with Tension, infusing their body with Voidlight and making it incredibly tough. They may not be manipulating density directly, but they kind of manipulate the volume of their body, F-iron manipulates mass directly, so I think it's not a stretch to say that there might be a way in Cosmere to manipulate density directly, without changing mass and volume (but it's unlikely we see it as just mass manipulation creates a lot of problems). But F-iron can't do it, as it doesn't affect density. 

On 6/12/2026 at 7:24 PM, Sythrin said:

Or maybe create swords that wield like normal blades for the wielder but heavier for the attacked one.

No, it's either heavier for both or not at all. 

14 hours ago, Xabben said:

One of the most unbelievable parts of the entire Stormlight Archive, for me, is the escape of the Parshendi from Kholinar's palace after killing king Gavilar. Even if the group of parshendi left a couple of hours before the assassination, the parshendi needed to navigate through a completely unknown territory for weeks before reaching the shattered plains. Moreover, we know by chapter 81 of RoW that they did not transform into war form until they reached their homeland, which means that they travelled using other, much slower forms such as the work form. Is it really believable that humans, with access to much faster travelling methods such as horses, wouldn't have found these parshendi just outside the capital city?

PD: Recall that the assassination was planned the same day that happened, which means that they didn't have much time to prepare for the escape.

Parshendi escaped the palace and the city at the same time Szeth was on the rampage. Only after Gavilar was killed did Parshendi leaders reveal themselves as the perpetrators, but due to overall chaos it still took Alethi hours before they realized that the rest of the Parshendi had fled the city. They sent 100 horsemen after them, but they all were killed by Szeth who was still with Parshendi. Alethi never stood a chance in capturing them.

As for the navigation problem, Eshonai was probably more or less aware how to return home simply just by remembering the way to Kholinar, but let's not forget that Venli had Ulim with her. He could have guided them home from hideout to hideout and thus even if Alethi were to send more people after them, they would have slim chances of finding them. However, it is doubtful that Alethi sent anyone after the initial pursuers were lost, it was just too costly and risky and they probably didn't have any sizable force on standby that could have been sent after Parshendi. They were already gearing up for the war so why would they try to capture Parshendi if they were going to find them on a battlefield anyway?  

WoR Prologue:

Quote

Hours later, it was discovered that the assassination—and the surrender of three of the Parshendi leaders—had covered the flight of the larger portion of their number. They escaped the city quickly, and the cavalry Dalinar sent after them were destroyed. A hundred horses, each nearly priceless, lost along with their riders.

23 hours ago, Frustration said:

So on another thread I was talking about direforms being perhaps the single greatest foot soldiers in the Cosmere, when @Trusk'our brought up Koloss. So I have a two questions to pose to the community.

1. Which one would you choose as a foot soldier in your army?
2. Who would win in a fight?

Direform are intelligent, naturally armored and quite strong, comparably so to Koloss. Koloss are massive, intimidating and swing huge lumps of iron. While the Direform numbers are limited by available spren, you can create as many Koloss as you want, but they have a tendency to start killing each other, which isn't ideal.

Still, quantity is a quality of its own so in my army I would rather have Koloss simply because I can outnumber any enemy by a vast margin and overwhelm them. Koloss are also easy to control with Allomancy, so they will follow me commands just as I want them to and won't betray me. They are also super easy to replace, just reuse spikes from the fallen ones, and they don't need any supplies so any logistical restraints are just out of the window. Additionally, an army of Koloss is just terrifying, which would devastate the morale of my enemy and could force them to surrender without any fight.

But in a 1 on 1 fight, Direform would most likely win, simply because they are smart and intelligent unlike Koloss. Their armor probably wouldn't help that much if they were to get hit by Koloss' giant club of iron (blunt internal damage), but Eland had no powers and still killed one of them, Direform would have a much easier job.

The blade is still visible in Shadesmar when it’s summoned in the Physical Realm, it appears as a shimmering, glowing object. Although on Scadrial every metal glows in the Cognitive Realm, pure investiture turned physical would probably be recognizable for a Radiant and especially for a spren from Roshar. 

Having Shardblade permanently summoned and hiding it in an aluminum sheath is a great solution. I would also cover its hilt with aluminum or some normal metal to hide its glow. If you know someone trusty and you don’t mind leaving your Shardblade with them, they can also hide it in a big pile of metal/scrap.

But truthfully, you could dismiss your blade and have your Deadeye sink into the depths of the Scardrian subastral, which is made out of opaque mists. Most of deadeyes on Roshar wander through the bottom of the sea of beads and it’s almost impossible to detect them. If your deadeye is somewhat aware and you can communicate with them (like Maya), you can tell them to stay hidden at the bottom of the Shadesmar sea and they won’t be seen and won’t betray your position, yet you can still summon them to the Physical Realm anytime you need a blade. 

If anyone wants to retrieve your Shardblade, they need to find you and not your deadeye. They need to either kill you, spike your Connection to the blade out, or destroy the gem in the blade when it’s summoned (only a Bondsmith would be able to steal that Connection by touching your deadeye). A giant, glowing sword would be very eye-catching on Scadrial so you’d do better if you don’t brandish your Shardblade in the Physical realm if you want to stay hidden.

On 6/4/2026 at 2:37 PM, tommahk said:

My biggest concern was a spren being on the Scadrian portion of the CR. I'm not quite sure where this would take place in the timeline, but it would before WaT. 

That's a problem because before WaT it was incredibly hard for a spren or a Radiant to leave Roshar, almost impossible. Kelsier suffers from the same problem, he can’t leave Scardial. 

15 hours ago, Xabben said:

So, given A and B, wouldn't the most logical solution be to bring some non-radiant person with the Windrunners, leave him/her near Urithiru, and then make him/her go to physically check if everything is okay by foot?

And where would you leave that non-Radiant person? On a vertical mountain cliff? Urithiru is placed within mountain peaks, you can't just walk up to it. The only path you can enter on foot is the one Fused took when attacking Urithiru, through a cave stretching from the foot of a mountain up to the basement of Urithiru. But that path was blocked during the invasion. 

1 hour ago, Through the Living Shadow said:

I disagree

I think there’s a separate conversion for Investiture <-> Energy and Investiture <-> Matter

Like

there would be three equations in total

and you would consider them separately

Momentum is there because of relativity n stuff—physics acts weird for observers of something when it goes fast

at least that’s how I understand it

It would be probably easier to do three separate equations, but at the same time also harder as they all need to work together. That's why I don't think there would be three equations, because energy, matter and investiture are the same thing and the Einstein's equation tells you how much total energy is there in the object/particle - mass is energy, so is momentum and energy curves spacetime (and that's why it's in the equation - at least that's how I understand it). That's why I believe there should be just one equation in Cosmere that tells you the same with the inclusion of Investiture cause it's also energy that needs to be considered.   

1 hour ago, Through the Living Shadow said:

Other tangent question, hedging onto WaT territory

  Hide contents

Lift is now able to just pack up and leave Roshar, right? Was she able to do that before the Oathpact was remade, and after Cultivation left?

WaT:

1 hour ago, Moirne said:

This is just a musing in response to the assertion on the most recent Shardcast (and the previous episode on Threnody) that Threnodites in the Homeland did not form Shades upon death. Do we know that for sure?

All points towards this conclusion. The Shades were first discovered in the Forests of Hell by the first expeditioners who landed there. The AU Threnodite system essay says that people only sometimes turn into Shades, not always:

Quote

Or perhaps they fear the spirits of the dead. People on Threnody are afflicted with a particular ailment that—upon death—sometimes turns them into what we call a Cognitive Shadow.

1 hour ago, Moirne said:

My initial impression years back was that Hell has been collecting Shades for quite some time, even prior to the forescouts arriving.  My assumption was that the Shades generated when homeworlders died appeared in Hell, because … well, it’s Hell, right?  Could this explain why the prey animals were already gone when the first settlers arrived in Hell, because their own civilization’s ghosts had already been active there for quite some time?

This made even more sense to me when reading about Braize - that a large collection of investiture, or a special type of it, can draw spirits/souls.  Might something like that be present in Hell?  And then on Canticle, where investiture is moving around based on the alignment of planet and sun, the Shades either form and get vaporized or form and have nowhere to go other than the Chorus tanks if they happen to die outside of the sunlight?

My opinion is that the original inhabitants of this continent died off shortly after the clash of Shards and turned into Shades, remaining there ever since. It's possible that you are right, as on Canticle Shades are often drawn into the Chorus rather than remaining where they died. But this is something that is visible, a mist appears and moves away. However, this isn't always the case and Shades sometimes do rise from corpses. If things like this were happening on the Homeland too, it would have been noticed and Shades would have been known before landing in the Forests of Hell. TSM ch 22:

Quote

“We think that maybe,” Zeal said, “people who die without being given to the sun are drawn to join the Chorus. They say that shades will rise from those who die and don’t become sunhearts, but we rarely experience that—instead, sometimes after a death, we see mist gather and move to the Reliquary.”

It's still a valid theory as we only have scares information about Threnody, however we don't really have anything that would supoort your claim either. 

10 hours ago, Through The Living Grub said:

The number of Breaths for a Heightening can vary based on the strength of the Breaths. Does the health of the holder affect the amount of investiture? Or something else? Is there an average amount of Invesisture per Breath and the variability is negligible?

Age is the most important factor. Breaths of younger people are stronger and more vibrant than those of adults, old age weakens them even more and Breaths from dying people are the weakest. Still, the difference is pretty small so it's not that big of a deal. 

23 minutes ago, Xabben said:

Maybe I'm a little bit biased by Rock, which is a true cinnamon roll, but I don't see Horneaters making business with what they consider to be a sacred place. But, again, I suppose that there are selfish and greedy people between them too... I would love to learn more about the Horneater culture.

It's even better. Apparently Horneaters will treat you like a god. We will know more about Horneaters and their perpendicularity once Brandon writes Horneater novella.

22 hours ago, Sythrin said:

Coppermind states that as long as a part of somebody is inside the body. The whole effect is affecting them. So what if something big like a Chasmfiend is touching it if you create a giant krakenlike creature with Midnight aether.

Would it be affected normaly and flail its appendages at highper speed outside the bubble?

It looks like that if something is large enough, it wouldn't be affected by the time bubble even if a part of it is passing through it.

1 hour ago, Xabben said:

- Sprens seem to have plenty of food to sell to travelers. However, how do they get that food? Do they buy it from other human travelers? Do they manifest it? Does manifested food actually nourish?

They buy food from merchants, the most popular food is canned one which is brought to Roshar by traders from other worlds. Canned food doesn't spoil that fast so it can be stored for a long time, perfect for Shadesmar. There are thousands of people travelling between worlds, there is a whole trade network, which deals with distributing food around Shadesmar.

1 hour ago, Xabben said:

- Many sprens seem to know modern Rosharian languages. How is this possible if humans from roshar haven't been to shadesmar for thousands of years?

They have been. There is a perpendicularity in Horneaters Peaks and a massive trade hub there. People from Roshar can use it to cross into Shadesmar, and while most people don't know about it, it still happens. I would also assume that as languages evolve on Roshar, due to the fact that spren are influenced by perception of people, they naturally pick up those changes. However, we have seen many spren who struggle to communicate in human languages (for example capitan Ico), so its clear that they need to learn too. 

1 hour ago, Xabben said:

- Is "manifesting" a different thing from what Shallan and Jasnah do when they rearrange beads to form objects?

Yes, what Shallan and Jasnah do is force beads around to take the shape of an object, manifesting an object creates it physically in Shadesmar. 

1 hour ago, Xabben said:

- The only stable entrance to shadesmar is cultivation's perpendicularity. However, it seems to be heavily guarded by Horneaters. How do worldhoppers enter/exit Roshar then? Wouldn't they be stopped by Horneaters?

They don't stop people from crossing between realms, Hoid, Zahel or Azure had no problems with passing through Cultivation's perpendicularity.

Edit:

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because spren exist off of human thought, they don't have languages of their own

Actually, they do have their own languages. Cryptics are probably most famous as their language use clicking sounds, Lightspren use vibrations through metal to communicate and there are several other spren languages. 

1 hour ago, Through The Living Grub said:

Kandra are not normally able to use metallic arts, but Bleeder was able to somehow in era 2. The spike may be special, but it can happen.

Kelsier spent a while sitting in a perpendicularly, so he may have enough innate Investiture to match his body to his current one.

Those are a bit different situations because Bleeder used spikes to steal Allomantic and Feruchemic powers and grant them to her own body and Spirit Web. Kelsier already has them in his Spirit Web. The problem is that the body he uses isn't his, it's Mistwraith's body which has its own Spirit Web and most importantly its own identity, which conflicts with Kelsier spirit's identity. I wouldn't be surprised that even if he were to try to place a spike with a stolen power into this body, it would grant this power to the Mistwraith, but not to Kelsier's Spirit Web, which would also prevent him from using it for the same reasons. It's definitely possible for him to regain his powers, but it would require hacking the magic system in some way. It would probably be easier to find a way to fully reconnect his Spirit Web to the Physical Realm and manifest his own new body out of pure investiture, SA spoilers:

Obviously, Sazed could have done it for him with ease, but he decided not to do it (can't blame him, Kelsier has already dethroned two gods and usurped the power of the third one for a short time, you can never be too careful when it comes to dealing with Kelsier). 

20 hours ago, Tonio811 said:

Where did Kelsier get his new body in Era 2?

Kelsier's Connection to the Physical Realm was severed, so it's a little problematic for him to return to PR. He can't just step through a perpendicularity, he needs to reestablish his Connection to the Physical Realm. Thankfully, his bones are still around and he is Connected to them so he can use this. We don't know exactly how he got his body back, but the most likely theory supported by WoBs is that he fed his bones to a Mistwraith and then he used Hemalurgy to staple his soul into it with a spike. Then he just used Mistwraith's shapeshifting ability to create his body from the bones Mistwraith ate, just like Kandra do it. So technically speaking he kind of possessed Mistwraith's body rather than got his own body back, which explains why he can't use Allomancy as even though it's part of his Spirit Web, the body he uses is not his.  

SA 4 Spoilers:

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

It is my understanding that the Eidolon, Nephalim, Evil, whatever one desires to call them, are Splinters of Ambition comprised nearly wholly of Anti-Investiture.

This alone begs the question, in terms of Intent, what could/would Anti-Ambition Investiture do, precisely?

Just because it's anti investiture, it doesn't mean its intent was reversed. It wasn't, it's still ambition. Just like a light wave inverted is still a light wave, or antimatter has a normal mass, not negative mass. However, in the case of Evil, IoE said they are made out of negative investiture, which is slightly different. What's more, the book said Ambition's intent was fully removed from all this Splintered investiture (and the quote and WoB suggest there is no Odium's investiture in them, just Ambition's). IoE ch 54:

Quote

“That is not some creature from your mythology,” Starling said. “It’s what we call a negative-Investiture entity, a . . . type 3? Type 2? Shards, Ed knows. Anyway, a long time ago—when the Shards were newly born—one named Odium attacked and killed his sibling. A god was destroyed, torn apart, its Intent removed and its pieces made into some kind of terrible negative energy. They roam the emberdark, seeking souls to consume.”

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

If these waves of destruction were twisting the people and the planet, I find it reasonable to assume it could twist any chunks of Ambition's power it carried with it; inverting these splinters into Anti-Investiture if they were not already.

Threnodites and Shades are not made out of anti-investiture, but a normal one which was corrupted. They would still be fully annihilated if touched by anti-investiture or the Evil. IoE ch 49:

Quote

“My intel,” Dajer says, “indicates you and the shade have traveled together for quite a while. He was involved in the events that got you imprisoned, was he not? A good friend, always by your side.” Dajer looked to her. “He will die to negative Investiture, just like any shade."

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

Additionally, the turn of phrase waves of destruction, seems to be intentional. Given what we know about The Grand Knell, in both origin and modern function in the Cosmere as of Emberdark, the Knell could be what Khriss refers to in their essay here.

The Grand Knell was indeed made during the Splintering of Ambition, and it is located near Threnody. IoE ch 25:

Quote

Even Starling knew what that meant: an entity of negative Investiture. One of the things born from the same event that had killed a god, made the Current, erupted into the Knell.
[...]
The Knell—the name they had for the enormous natural beacon near Threnody—gave at least one data point.

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

In conjunction, these quotes read to me as this Anti-Ambition Investiture being keyed towards consumption. In other words taking the measured, stable, and sustainable model of growth that standard Ambition Investiture may arguably lean toward.. and simply removing its own guardrails, so to speak, and inverting the growth inward. 

 

ALL of this to ask..

1. The Evil on Threnody grew to consume roughly an entire continent. What made it stop?

Once again, there is no Anti-Ambition, the Evil seems to be made out of raw, intentless anti-investiture and because they are sentient, they can decide what to do. The book suggests that the Evil destroyed almost all of Threnody before moving out into wider Cosmere - that's why they stopped, there was nothing left for them to consume. IoE ch 27: 

Quote

Nobody knew quite what these things were, the entities that had all but destroyed the planet Threnody—then moved out into the cosmere, hunting and exterminating life. Perhaps they searched for that which had been taken from them in the death of the god they’d once been part of.

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• Anti-Ambition Investiture aka 'consumption' as an Intent does not explain the Evil's current behavior, such as that of the shades, the Three Simple Rules, and other oddities. What else then, could?

There was a theory that the Three Simple Rules each were influenced by the intent of Odium, Ambition and Mercy. Can't remember the details now. In any case, the Evil is fully sentient so it can act on its own (just like spren, just because Honorspren are out of Honor it doesn't mean they have to be like Honor), they show signs of curiosity and intentional cruelty. Shades show some level of self-awareness, but they're mostly twisted and corrupted CS that spread that corruption as it touches others.  

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• The "waves of destruction" as noted by Khriss shortly after Ambition's death, seem in description and consequences described to be far more powerful than how The Grand Knell appears to be, powerful still it may be, in the modern Cosmere. What changed?

Well, because the waves of destruction were from a direct confrontation between Odium and Ambition and Ambition's Splintering, the Current is made by whatever was left out afterwards. A plank dropped into water generates massive waves on impact, but once it starts floating, there are only gentle waves made by it. 

7 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

A navigational constant with some Anti/Negative 1-6 Invested Entities that like to be near it doesn't precisely sound like something categorically worse than what happened on Sel, even if Odium had to recuperate after the event that created it.

You mean a nearly global extinction of Threnody and the creation of multiple gozillas roaming freely across Cosmere isn't worse than what happened on Sel, which mostly affects CR alone?? 

7 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• RoW Ch.27 Epigraph and the Threnodite Essay suggests that while the final Splintering of Ambition/creation of The Grand Knell may not have happened super close to Threnody, or even in the Threnodite System itself - it must have been close enough to Threnody to impact it in a major way.

The waves of destruction were not necessarily the result of the final Splintering of Ambition, just the clash between Shards was enough to create them and they started to fight before Ambition left the Threnodite system. WaT spoilers:

AU:

Quote

Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.
The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets—and though the true contest happened mostly in other Realms—the ripples of destruction and change washed through the system.

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

The midnight dead I agree are of Ruin, but I found them more similar to Midnight Essence than to Cognitive Shadows.

Yumi spoilers:

2 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

You know, the dead greatly resemble Shades. 

Cosmere spoilers:

  Hide contents

They become visible at night, silver can be used to combat them (not a trait specific to Shades, but still there), and the PoV's pressed flower wards sound an awful lot like perception-based protections, which are far more potent against Cognitive entities that share no direct affiliation with a Shard.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/493-secret-project-3-reveal-and-livestream/#e15524

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Their appearance is definitely different than that of Shades, but Shades should be more easily molded by the thoughts of those around them, much like an Evil.

Heck, the Ire's fear of Shades crossing their borders on the edge of the Scadrian subastral suggest they've done so in the past, or at least are feared to have that ability.

If I were to throw out a guess, the Midnight Dead are visiting Shades pushed into Scadrial's PR by the Murk, which I agree is almost certainly a manifestation of Ruin's essence.

Or they could just straight up be our first known form of Ruinous CS, I suppose.

Cosmere spoilers:

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

But also some things we've heard mentioned like the zombies on the Island of Death Nicki Savage spoke of, as well as the mummies Isac keeps promising in the Book of Nails.

That's a good connection. It's possible that the Midnight Dead are only a local phenomena and they survived all the way past Catacendre, or they were all around Scadrial but some of them survived on that island.

1 hour ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Though honestly I agree with the vibe pretty much being what you suggest.

35 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

While the lore may have been interesting, the actual writing was pretty boring, and it felt like generic Sword and Sorcery—The Fires of December is far superior. But maybe you think differently.

Yup, except for the lore, the rest isn't that impressing. The main character didn't leave any impression on me at all - he just was in the book and didn't really do anything. Brandon was right calling it an average book, but rusts I want that sweet sweet ancient Scadrial lore drop so much!

There is a new reading from a dropped secret project that was just read in London. Here's the link: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/554/#e17193. 

The story is set thousands of years before Rashek and Alendi, so long ago that they still use bronze for weapons and armors as well as phalanx and war chariots. It's such an ancient past that it explains the origins of the Deepness. There's a few interesting things I've noticed while reading it.

The first one and the most important one is the complete lack of the white, Preservation's Mist. It's absent and even replaced with the black smoke called the Murk, which forms as night sets. It obscures clouds and stars, just like the Mists does. That sounds a lot like Ruin's Mist. From it the Midnight Dead emerge, forming out of the smoke, bones included. An individual Dead doesn't seem to linger for a long time as they fade as new ones appear. Those Deads are said to be the souls of angry dead people, buried for specific purpose, which would mean they might be some form of Cognitive Shadows. What's more, they whisper unrecognizable words, which might pose some kind of threat as people put wax in their ears. However, they seem to be somewhat mindless in their behaviour. It looks to me that Ruin's directly involved with the Dead and the Murk. 

The Ageless was mentioned a few times, a ruler of Iratrians, who are on an offensive war. He rules from Mount Dominant and rumors said he can control the Midnight Dead. The city of Caldweth is independent, but on map it belongs to Iratrian and it was said that the Ageless hasn't enforced his rule over them in decades, which might mean he was busy elsewhere, or he was/is absent. Once again, that sounds like Ruin to me. 

Silver is used to create swords to fight the Dead - which suggest that they really are CS akin to Shades. There is also a flower that repels them - maybe it's even the Marewill flower?  

And lastly the Gwit people, or Gway Fiatelle, failed in the past and they are forbidden from carrying a sword until they redeem themselves. They act as mercenaries and by tradition are given a sword by others. They usually have pale skin and brown hair and wear a silver sword pendant - they do not look like Terris.

There is no sign of Preservation, Mists or any kind of Metallic Arts present in the story. From all of this I speculate that the story takes place either shortly before Ruin's imprisonment by Preservation or shortly after, because it looks like Preservation hasn't set up the Mistsnapping and the Mists yet. The Murk is most definitely Ruin's investiture, which I think was later splintered off by Preservation and trapped in the Atium cycle in the Pits of Hathsin (this idea aligns with WoB and WoB). The Ageless might be Ruin himself or his agent trying to conquer Scadrial for him to destroy it, or to free Ruin if he's already imprisoned - but only the "controlling the Dead" part makes me believe this.

Then there is a question of what Gway Fiatelle did to condemn the entire nation? The only thing I can think of is that one of them was the first one ever to Ascend at the Well of Ascension (after Ruin's imprisonment)  and caused this whole mess with the Midnight Dead somehow, however this doesn't really fit with the absence of the Mist and the presence of the Ruin's Mist. 

Honestly, it's a pity that Brandon has dropped the book and it probably won't be finished as the lore sounds really interesting and nothing like I've imagined. I'm super curious now how did the Deppness and the Mist appear for the first time, what's going on with the Dead and the Ageless and how Ruin and Preservation fit into all of this, but unfortunately we are unlikely to get the answers to those questions.

What do you guys think of this reading and what are your theories about all of this? 

Welcome to the Shard fellow compatriot! I think IoE is coming out this fall, so just a few months away.

What’s your favorite Cosmere book?

16 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I didn't know alder was Polish

And I thought my avatar was a dead giveaway.

46 minutes ago, PanLin said:

I'm not trying to say that Odium contains love and care, I'm saying that the emotion odium is itself a passionate emotion, and that people have a tendency to misinterpret the concept of passion. 'Passion' doesn't just mean 'love'; it can refer to any heightened emotion, particularly one that overrides someone's normal decision-making (which is pretty on-brand for Odium). The word even comes from the Latin word for 'suffering'.

Sure, the Shardic Intent was adamant in retaining the hateful focus of Odium, but it's a big leap of logic to assume that means Passion would've been a 180 flip. Rayse also still preferred the term Passion, regardless of whether he could convince the Shard to agree.

Yes, I do agree with that description of Passion which is even supported by what Dalinar felt in OB, but he's not all emotions which was what Rayse claimed to be. However, because Rayse wasn't successful in fully changing Odium's intent to Passion, Devotion fits as a clear opposite of Odium. OB ch 57:

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It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.
It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.
It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.
And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

52 minutes ago, PanLin said:

Devotion is also a form of passion—losing oneself entirely to the object of one's devotion.

It doesn't seem this way to me, esspecially considering Devotion's description from Elantris ch 61:

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THE WATER HELD Raoden in a cool embrace. It was a thing alive; he could hear it calling in his mind. Come, it said, I give you release. It was a comforting parent. It wanted to take away his pain and sorrows, just as his mother had once done.
Come, it pled. You can finally give up.

It's a gentle care and love of a comforting mother, not an overwhelming feeling described by Odium. Love doesn't have to be passionate. Even WaT confirms all Shards lack the sense of love and compassion, which was specifically assigned to Devotion. Odium/Passion simply cannot have love within him (which is what Venli saw). WaT ch 124:

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IN THAT MOMENT, I UNDERSTOOD THE DEPTHS OF OUR STUPIDITY—FOR IN SHATTERING ADONALSIUM, WE HAD REMOVED THE DIVINE SENSE OF LOVE AND COMPASSION FROM THE OTHER SHARDS. THAT ONE HAD GONE TO AONA, AMONG THE BEST OF US, AND THEREFORE AMONG THE FIRST RAYSE HAD SOUGHT OUT TO KILL.

57 minutes ago, PanLin said:

One could make the argument that Odium and Devotion are opposites in the same way that one could make the argument that Preservation and Endowment are opposites, simply because one maintains a status quo while the other changes it (and by that logic, one could basically argue that any of the Shards could be a candidate for Preservation's opposite)

Yes, that's kind of true. Brandon even said that not all Shards have a perfectly opposite pairing, and some Shards can have several opposite ones. Honor and Autonomy fit well as opposites, just like Preservation and Cultivation and you can make many more pairings. Opposites attract each other just like Ruin and Preservation do, but their interaction, fight and perception of people and self can polarize them even more making them better fit opposites in the process. I would argue Honor and Odium became stronger opposites because of this effect and Brandon even said they aren't necessarily opposite, but they do attract each other well.

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Did he? Or did he prioritise Sel and Roshar as multi-Shard systems (and therefore a greater potential threat to him), as implied by these WoBs

Yes, Odium has specifically targeted Devotion because she is the divine sense of love and was held by one of the best of all the Vessels. Look up the quote from WaT ch 124 above. 

1 hour ago, PanLin said:

Like others have pointed out, I think people are putting too much stock in the wording of 'one could make that argument'. If Sanderson intended for Odium and Devotion to be true opposing forces, that answer would either have been 'yes' or 'RAFO'. The Cosmere is rife with people 'making the argument' that, for example, all kinetic Investiture is Surgebinding, or that there are only 10 allomantic metals, or that (Emberdark spoilers)

  Hide contents

it's impossible for a technologically immature civilisation to navigate the Emberdark.

Because of a mixture of the normal muddiness when trying to find the complete, objective 'truth' of historical events, and because of the very tangible effect that perception and Intent have in the Cosmere, I really don't think that one WoB is enough for us to conclude that Odium and Devotion actually are opposites.

You asked "considered by whom" so I showed you there are those who would consider Devotion and Odium to be an opposite pairing. Brandon didn't say just yes, because not all Shards have as clear opposites as Ruin and Preservation are. Some don't have them at all, others can have several and Odium is one of those. I do believe that Devotion is a fitting pairing for Odium, just like Honor is and Reason also seems like a good opposite to Odium (emotions vs logic).

18 hours ago, Jult said:

But, also, it throws a wrench in the idea that the Shards don't know about Dawn. Unless Tanavast just has no idea where the Unmade came from.

WaT ch 120:

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THE UNMADE, IN PARTICULAR, WERE GROWING IN STRENGTH. HE HAD HIDDEN THEIR CREATION FROM ME, AND I FOUND THEM UNNERVING. MY RADIANTS COULD DO GREAT THINGS, BUT WERE KEPT IN CHECK BY THEIR OATHS. HIS FUSED WERE MORE LIMITED—LEAVING HIM EXTRA STRENGTH HE COULD GIVE TO THE UNMADE.

On 5/12/2026 at 9:36 PM, Enderuser53 said:

so, my question is why Sanderson decided to detail the s** scenes and not just say that it happened? I was reminded of this while i was going through my required summer reading for AP English 3 Lang. So why?

Honestly, what detailed sex scenes? Where are they? I went and compared scenes from Warbreaker (2009) and Wind and Truth (2024) and they are basically the same - they have a conversation, start kissing and the scene ends indicating it happened. Nothing more. From this it seems that Brandon didn't change his policy about writing sex scenes, there is more passion and intimacy in the WaT scene but he still cuts the PoV before the deed even starts. Obviously, comparing those books to Mistborn Era 1, where you had to be a rusting detective to guess Vin and Elend were active at night, it might seem that Brandon became a lot more obscene, but I don't think that's the case. 

Warbreaker ch 45:

WaT ch 18:

38 minutes ago, PanLin said:

Can I ask, considered by whom? Love and hate aren't opposites; Odium is even known as Passion by a lot of people.

Rayse wanted to be known as Passion, but the Shard resisted this change. Even Venli noted that Odium is devoid of things such as love and care. Plus this WoB:

RoW ch 83:

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She remembered love. Family. Grandparents, cousins. How had she forgotten? As a child, ambition and love had been like two sides of her face, each with its own vibrant pattern. To the sound of Odium’s rhythms, one side had shone, while the other withered. She had become a person who wanted only to achieve her goals—not because those goals would help others, but because of the goals themselves.
It was in that moment that Venli saw for herself the depth of his lies. He claimed to be of all Passions, and yet where was the love she’d once felt? The love for her mother? Her sister? Her friends? For a while, she’d even forgotten her love for Demid, though it had helped to awaken her.

Interesting theory, it makes sense and I like it. I wouldn't be surprised to know that BAM is the 4th primal spren, who either from the very beginning was associated with Odium, or was corrupted by him when he settled on Roshar. She appears as a Singer, which might indicate that she’s as old and native to Roshar as they are.

17 hours ago, Jult said:

I agree it's not definitively stated. But I think Tanavast adopted Wind's tone and Koravellium adopted Night's. Which, I suppose would mean Rayse either took Stone's or the one that had previously belonged to Dawn. Considering we don't see much connecting Rayse to Stone, I'd assume he took over Dawn's empty post.

I don't think Shards adapted to tones of sprens, rather their tones were already similar due to the fact that those spren's investiture got assigned to those particular Shards during the Shattering. Wind was made out of Honor's investiture and thus their tone was similar to the pure tone of Honor and that's why Tanavast was drawn to them, the same goes for Night and Cultivation. The Stone could be a mix of both Honor and Cultivation's investiture (just like the Sibling is, who is made out of a portion of the Stone), pure Odium's investiture, or most likely was associated with investiture of a Shard not present on Roshar.

8 hours ago, Master_Moridin said:

The weirdest thing with the four tones for me has been what else happens in that scene with the chasmfiends. Venli uses Stoneshaping and allows the shape to be guided by the tones the chasmfiends sing. The resulting pattern is identical to the Shattered Plains, but inverted.
But, when we see the destruction of Stormseat and the creation of the Shattered Plains, the tone that's attributed as responsible is anti-Honor.  So there's a strange incongruity here that makes it a little hard to pin down what's going on with the four tones the chasmfiends sing.

17 minutes ago, Jult said:

I also find this super weird. I don't understand why all 4 tones would result in a pattern that resembles an inverted version of anti-Honor.

Was it just anti-Honor? Both Honor and Odium clashed, their souls mixed and created anti-light as a result. I would imagine it was not only anti-Honor, but also anti-Odium, possibly mixed as anti-War. The book did say there were multiple anti-tones present. WaT ch 120:

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IN THAT SPACE OF NOTHING—EVERY AXON FORCED AWAY—OUR SOULS MELDED IN THE MOST UNNERVING OF WAYS, TOO INTIMATE, TOO REMINISCENT OF CREATION FOR A CREATURE SUCH AS HIM. IN THAT MOMENT, TINY PIECES OF SOMETHING DISCORDANT WERE BORN.
SOMETHING DANGEROUS, EVEN TO A GOD. THE COUNTER TO MY ESSENCE. ANTI-LIGHT, IT COULD BE CALLED.
WORSE, THE SHOCK WAVE OF OUR CLASH SURGED BENEATH US, POWER RUSHING AND VIBRATING WITH THOSE TERRIBLE TONES.